Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 04:13 pm
Terry wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I think the debate could be cooled and maybe even become more constructive if two things happened:

--Pro abortion laws people would stop attacking pro lifers as people who want to control others and acknowledge that some restrictions on at least mid and late term abortions could be reasonable.

--Pro life people would be more clear that they do accept there being a valid reasons for abortion and that they are not out to deny women the right to an abortion when an abortion is in fact necessary.

If the two sides could agree on those two principles, then we could have a constructive debate on what is necessary.

I think the debate could be cooled if we used more accurate terms: Pro-choice and anti-abortion. No one is pro-abortion, and people who oppose abortion may favor anti-life governmental policies when it comes to war, capital punishment, school lunches or environmental protection.

Pro lifers believe they are pro choice--but they believe the choice should be life whenever possible. The time for choice is before the risk of pregnancy is taken. If you are not pro-abortion, then neither is a prolifer anti-abortion as nobody on this thread has suggested that abortion for any reason should be made illegal.

Abortion laws already distinguish between pregnancy stages and allow some restrictions. It is unconscionable that anti-abortionists have changed our laws to require that women go through unnecessary trauma when late term abortion is medically necessary.

Could you elaborate a bit more on where such late term restrictions exist? I know that Roe v Wade anticipated that such restrictions could be appropriate, but the eye witness testimonies of nurses attending late term, including partial birth abortions, did not suggest that any of the cases they cited were medically necessary.

Anti-abortion people should accept the fact that they have no right to decide when an abortion is "necessary" for someone else, and that childbearing has serious risks (29% of pregnancies result in major abdominal surgery) that cannot ethically be imposed on unwilling women.


I have not heard one pro lifer on this thread say that 'necessary' abortions should not be performed. All are almost unanimous, however, that the developing life should receive both consideration and protection.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 04:14 pm
Terry,

Are you being really serious? You are putting a dollar value on a life! I understand about paying medical expenses. I have no problem with that. But, if you would assess pain and suffering compensation that is just too far over the top IMO.

What about just doing the right thing? How about caring enough about a human being to give it the right to be born? How about caring that THE CHILD will have a loving home because someone actually wants it? Terry, I am not sure you realize how this sounds to me (and I imagine others). You are placing a dollar value on a life here! I don't know if you got in that slavery discussion we had or not, but even the Pro-Choicers are against it! (If that didn't come out right to those that are Pro-Choice, I meant nothing derogatory by it.)

Yes, if you ask for more than medical expenses, you are essentially IMO selling the child that is your responsibility (no matter how you got pregnant, but especially due to your own irresponsibility) until you give it up for adoption. I don't understand why that seems to be so hard for some to understand?
0 Replies
 
Terry
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 04:14 pm
Intrepid wrote:
If they lack the emotional maturity to make a decision regarding whether to have sex then they definitely lack the emotional maturity do make a decision as important as having an abortion. IMHO

As you said, they made the choice and it was their's.

Just because they made one bad choice does not mean that they are incapable of making a good one, once they are sober and take the time to consider the consequences. Whether their choice is abortion or childbirth, no one has the right to impose their personal opinions on anyone else.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 04:17 pm
ehbeth,

I believe the real difference here is that there are those that believe God's laws are always just and true and man's are not and there are those that may not even believe in God, much less His laws. Man changes the laws. I follow man's laws, yes. But, when it conflicts with God's laws, I follow God's laws.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 04:18 pm
MoAn, since we are both Christians - with differing views on this issue - who decides what the correct Christian view is?
0 Replies
 
Terry
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 04:20 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Terry,

Are you being really serious? You are putting a dollar value on a life! I understand about paying medical expenses. I have no problem with that. But, if you would assess pain and suffering compensation that is just too far over the top IMO.

...
Yes, if you ask for more than medical expenses, you are essentially IMO selling the child that is your responsibility (no matter how you got pregnant, but especially due to your own irresponsibility) until you give it up for adoption. I don't understand why that seems to be so hard for some to understand?

??????? I did not "put a dollar value on life." I said that a woman should be compensated by the adoptive parents for the actual costs and suffering she experiences when giving birth. I don't understand why anyone would have a problem with that, unless they put no value whatsoever on a woman's feelings.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 04:28 pm
Terry wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
If they lack the emotional maturity to make a decision regarding whether to have sex then they definitely lack the emotional maturity do make a decision as important as having an abortion. IMHO

As you said, they made the choice and it was their's.

Just because they made one bad choice does not mean that they are incapable of making a good one, once they are sober and take the time to consider the consequences. Whether their choice is abortion or childbirth, no one has the right to impose their personal opinions on anyone else.


So, now you revert to the fact that they were, apparently, drunk instead of lacking emotional maturity. I am stating my opinion... not imposing my opinion on anyone else. Anyone with the intelligence to determine the difference is welcome to make their own opinion. Are you imposing your opinion on others? I there a difference? I don't see a difference.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 04:43 pm
ehbeth,

God's word is the final authority in all things.

Terry,

You just do not understand how I see it as placing a dollar value on a life because you (from what I gather in your posts) do not place the same value on a child/fetus as I do. That, I can understand.

But one more time, when a woman is pregnant, it is her moral responsibility to care for the child/fetus until it is born and then either care for the child herself or find someone who will. Since I consider it a child and not merely a fetus, I am putting the greater value on the innocent who cannot make a choice themself.
0 Replies
 
Terry
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 04:44 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Pro lifers believe they are pro choice--but they believe the choice should be life whenever possible. The time for choice is before the risk of pregnancy is taken. If you are not pro-abortion, then neither is a prolifer anti-abortion as nobody on this thread has suggested that abortion for any reason should be made illegal.

It makes no sense to require that the choice be made before becoming pregnant, since God/nature/fate fails to respect our choices in the matter. IMO, people have the right to pursue happiness, which includes enjoying sex without the obligation to become parents if they conceive accidentally.

Quote:
Could you elaborate a bit more on where such late term restrictions exist? I know that Roe v Wade anticipated that such restrictions could be appropriate, but the eye witness testimonies of nurses attending late term, including partial birth abortions, did not suggest that any of the cases they cited were medically necessary.

I don't know about other states, but Pennsylvania's post-viability abortion restriction provides that "no abortion may be performed after the 23rd week of pregnancy unless the attending physician and another physician who has examined the woman concur in writing that the procedure is necessary to preserve the woman's life or to prevent a "substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function." The physician must use the abortion method most likely to result in fetal survival unless in the physician's good faith medical judgment that method poses a significantly greater risk of the woman's death or a "substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function" of the woman than other available methods. A second physician must attend a post-viability abortion to provide medical attention to any live born child. 18 Pa. Cons. Stat. Ann. ยง 3211 (Enacted 1989)."

Quote:
I have not heard one pro lifer on this thread say that 'necessary' abortions should not be performed. All are almost unanimous, however, that the developing life should receive both consideration and protection.

I said that anti-abortionists do not have the right to determine when abortions are "necessary," since they do not consider the wishes of the woman to be of any importance in the decision. Unfortunately, there are armies of anti-abortionists who are militant in their efforts to have virtually all abortions banned, even morning-after pills and very early abortions when there is no conscious life to be considerate of.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 04:52 pm
Terry Wrote:

Quote:
It makes no sense to require that the choice be made before becoming pregnant, since God/nature/fate fails to respect our choices in the matter. IMO, people have the right to pursue happiness, which includes enjoying sex without the obligation to become parents if they conceive accidentally.


God fails to respect our choices? Uh Terry, this seems to be where I find the biggest problem. God created us. Shouldn't we be the ones respecting Him and His laws?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 05:10 pm
YWYS*

*Yeah, What you said.
0 Replies
 
Terry
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 05:11 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
ehbeth,

God's word is the final authority in all things.

Terry,

You just do not understand how I see it as placing a dollar value on a life because you (from what I gather in your posts) do not place the same value on a child/fetus as I do. That, I can understand.

But one more time, when a woman is pregnant, it is her moral responsibility to care for the child/fetus until it is born and then either care for the child herself or find someone who will. Since I consider it a child and not merely a fetus, I am putting the greater value on the innocent who cannot make a choice themself.


Since you think that God's word is the final authority, you might be interested in the monetary value he put on life:

Quote:
Leviticus 27
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If anyone makes a special vow to dedicate persons to the LORD by giving equivalent values, 3 set the value of a male between the ages of twenty and sixty at fifty shekels of silver, according to the sanctuary shekel; 4 and if it is a female, set her value at thirty shekels. 5 If it is a person between the ages of five and twenty, set the value of a male at twenty shekels and of a female at ten shekels. 6 If it is a person between one month and five years, set the value of a male at five shekels of silver and that of a female at three shekels of silver. 7 If it is a person sixty years old or more, set the value of a male at fifteen shekels and of a female at ten shekels.

Numbers 18
14 "Everything in Israel that is devoted to the LORD is yours. 15 The first offspring of every womb, both man and animal, that is offered to the LORD is yours. But you must redeem every firstborn son and every firstborn male of unclean animals. 16 When they are a month old, you must redeem them at the redemption price set at five shekels of silver, according to the sanctuary shekel, which weighs twenty gerahs.


Anything not redeemed was given to the priests, presumably including firstborn daughters. One wonders what they did with them.

I personally do not put a monetary value on life. I do not think that a woman has any more obligation to an unwanted embryo than to any of the other eggs she fails to carry to term. I think that we will just have to agree to disagree on these points.
0 Replies
 
Terry
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 05:26 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Terry Wrote:

Quote:
It makes no sense to require that the choice be made before becoming pregnant, since God/nature/fate fails to respect our choices in the matter. IMO, people have the right to pursue happiness, which includes enjoying sex without the obligation to become parents if they conceive accidentally.


God fails to respect our choices? Uh Terry, this seems to be where I find the biggest problem. God created us. Shouldn't we be the ones respecting Him and His laws?


If you can prove that God created us, I would love to see that. The Bible may not be used as "proof" unless you can independently establish its accuracy on the subject. In any case, if we choose to be sexually active but not to bear children, use birth control and get pregnant anyway, how has our "choice" been respected?

Which of God's Laws would you like us to respect? The ones requiring us to stone disobedient children, witches and homosexuals to death, discipline slaves and children by beating them with a rod, allowing us to sell our daughter into slavery or marry her to her rapist, and prescribing an abortion ritual for wives suspected of infidelity? Or the ones where we slaughter our neighbors (including women and children) and take their land? Or are you referring to the laws of a different God, who wouldn't dream of punishing children for the sins of their ancestors or consigning people to hell for not choosing the correct superstition ... I mean religion ... to follow?
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 05:33 pm
Terry,

The same old argument? Old Testament rebuttal to the laws of the New Covenant?

It has been explained in thread after thread, see Should We Handle Victory the Way God of the Bible Decrees. It will go through this at great length.

Again, you obviously put what MAN wants for MAN above what GOD wants for MAN. If that is the way it is, then of course, we will disagree.
0 Replies
 
Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 05:37 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Terry,

The same old argument? Old Testament rebuttal to the laws of the New Covenant?

It has been explained in thread after thread, see Should We Handle Victory the Way God of the Bible Decrees. It will go through this at great length.

Again, you obviously put what MAN wants for MAN above what GOD wants for MAN. If that is the way it is, then of course, we will disagree.


I think that's pretty much the way it HAS to be MA. Not everyone believes in God, and as you've pointed out, seperation of church and state is also an old argument.
0 Replies
 
Terry
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 05:43 pm
Momma Angel, according to the Jews, God never revoked the Covenant he made with them.

How do you KNOW what God wants for man? The Biblical record demonstrates that he has no problem with killing innocent children for the flimsiest of reasons, even his own son. So what makes you think that he opposes abortion? The commandment says not to murder, but legal killing is sanctioned - and often ordered - by God.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 05:47 pm
Terry,

With the coming of Christ there was a New Covenant. The old laws were given way to the new.

I posted a reference earlier about this. I told you what it meant to me.

The Bible lays it all out for us. You know by reading God's word.

Like I said Terry, if you do not believe in God or that God is the ultimate authority or that man should follow God's laws, you will think things like God kills innocent children for the flimsiest of reasons.

So, I agree to disagree. You?
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 05:49 pm
Terry, God didn't "kill his own son". That's a twisted way of describing the sacrifice and ressurection of Jesus. It's funny how those who salivate at any chance to trash Christianity are so eager to cherry pick passages from the Old Testament they think supports their negative view of the religion. Why is it they never want to speak of redemption, rebirth and hope - the real themes of the present covenant with God that believing Christians share? There are plenty of verses they could cherry pick about those themes, too.
0 Replies
 
Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 05:54 pm
snood wrote:
Terry, God didn't "kill his own son". That's a twisted way of describing the sacrifice and ressurection of Jesus. It's funny how those who salivate at any chance to trash Christianity are so eager to cherry pick passages from the Old Testament they think supports their negative view of the religion. Why is it they never want to speak of redemption, rebirth and hope - the real themes of the present covenant with God that believing Christians share? There are plenty of verses they could cherry pick about those themes, too.


Very true. Though, it's also somewhat funny how those christians cherry pick which scriptures are pertinent to their beliefs and which aren't.

And Terry's description isn't all that twisted. Jesus's life was arguably prophecied and laid out before he even showed up. It's been argued in another thread that he had the choice of whether to die or not, but there's nothing notably clear about why he didn't. Christians choose to believe it was his love of us, non-believers that will even discuss the possibility of him being god's son seem to believe that he never had the choice at all.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 06:02 pm
ehBeth wrote:
MoAn, since we are both Christians - with differing views on this issue - who decides what the correct Christian view is?


If you are, in fact, a Christian you should know the answer to that.
0 Replies
 
 

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