Is freewill biblical or something we invented ?

@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Frank isn't trying to fool anyone, his position is clear.

You are the one having difficulties with others perception.

Frank is not denying God, he is saying he can't see any evidence for a god.

When you say he will meet God that is something you believe, other people don't, and they're not going to be persuaded otherwise just because you say it's so.

Instead of seeing it as a confrontation just accept Frank for what he is. You believe what you want, and he can continue to have issues with that particular word.

If you want to have any success stop quoting vast amounts of scripture, (which nobody reads anyway,) and instead tell him what evidence you see for the existence of a benign god.

Thank you, Izzy.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Quote:

If you could demonstrate why your belief system should not be dismissed as a blind guess I'm sure Frank would show some interest.

I also have problems with Frank's arguments, I think his vernacular is far too rigid, his refusal to use the word belief in any context only confuses things.

I don’t expect anyone to accept on 'faith' why my belief in God is not a blind guess, but if they are not able to explain why my explanation for that belief is invalid, they do not have a valid reason for the absolute denial of any evidence for a creator of this reality (God).
I have made my scientific argument why there had to be an intelligent actor behind biological life many times. I have never had anyone offer a logical and science based argument against it. (I have posed it on far more science based internet sites than a2k) I will repeat it here on this thread if asked. This is only one reason among many why there is more evidence to think there is a God than to think otherwise. I don’t mean this is 'The Proof', but it is reason enough to reject Frank's position and look for oneself.

Your second point is devastatingly accurate. In spite of everyone's affection for the dear old man, I doubt there is anyone here who cannot sense the seemingly impenetrable barrier in Frank's mind about 'God' and 'belief'. I’ve asked, but he doesn’t want to talk about it. My asking was not because I wanted to attack or discredit him, I’m genuinely interested in the kind of transcendental experiences that lead to such states of mind. I’ve had several myself.

BTW, I am an old man and glad of it, in case others don’t know. No disrespect meant.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Actually, if I have ever said that no one, including me, CAN know if any gods exist...it was a shortcut (and probably a mistake). I try to avoid doing that, but sometimes it is easier to assert it that way than to be more precise.

Well then by all means, be more precise. I’m listening.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Leadfoot wrote:
https://able2know.org/topic/556850-6#post-7300050

Frank:
So you cannot come up with a link to a question...you want to pretend a comment of mine is a question even though it obviously in not..

And now a denial that the question in that link is not what we have been arguing about for years now. That is the ONLY question I’m interested in here Frank.

Gaslighting is, or should be, beneath you .

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
Actually, if I have ever said that no one, including me, CAN know if any gods exist...it was a shortcut (and probably a mistake). I try to avoid doing that, but sometimes it is easier to assert it that way than to be more precise.

Well then by all means, be more precise. I’m listening.

I have been more precise...you are NOT listening.

There is no way anyone can KNOW there are no gods. One would have to be a god to KNOW that...which would negate it.

IF there are any gods, though, those gods could reveal themselves in an unambiguous way...in a way that would create certainty. (Anyone asserting that a god has done that runs into the problem of evidence that he/she is not deceiving him/herself.)

If I have ever said to you, "There is no way anyone can know there is a GOD"...I was wrong to do it.

If you are saying that I have...then just offer a link to where I did say it. IF you do, I will acknowledge that I was wrong...and apologize for doing it. I will correct it. IF I HAVE EVER DONE IT.

C'mon. Just one link to where I have said it. (Mind you, as I have already indicated, I may have...as a short cut. But I think not.)

Just offer the link.

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
Leadfoot wrote:
https://able2know.org/topic/556850-6#post-7300050

Frank:
So you cannot come up with a link to a question...you want to pretend a comment of mine is a question even though it obviously in not..

And now a denial that the question in that link is not what we have been arguing about for years now. That is the ONLY question I’m interested in here Frank.

Gaslighting is, or should be, beneath you .

PROVIDE A LINK TO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING THAT I HAVE SAID...OR STOP MAKING THAT ACCUSATION.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

PROVIDE A LINK TO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING THAT I HAVE SAID...OR STOP MAKING THAT ACCUSATION.

I think everyone is aware of your position on this topic, but if you are not aware of the positions you have taken in the past, there is no point in quoting you. The place where I think you said it most clearly is the 'Intelligent Design' thread. It’s well over a thousand pages now (and locked by the censors when I last checked) so it would take some searching to find it.

( @Mods: A2k search engine is useless)

But it is encouraging to see that you can believe something.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
PROVIDE A LINK TO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING THAT I HAVE SAID...OR STOP MAKING THAT ACCUSATION.

I think everyone is aware of your position on this topic, but if you are not aware of the positions you have taken in the past, there is no point in quoting you. The place where I think you said it most clearly is the 'Intelligent Design' thread. It’s well over a thousand pages now (and locked by the censors when I last checked) so it would take some searching to find it.

( @Mods: A2k search engine is useless)

But it is encouraging to see that you can believe something.

Show me a quote where I said what you said I said.

I did a short search to see me saying the opposite. Here is the closest I could come to it.

Perhaps you have me confused with someone who asserts that “gods are unknowable.” I am not that person.

And that was from 10 years ago. I'll look for more, but I doubt you will find what you claim to be my position.

And what makes you think I "believe" anything?

URL: https://able2know.org/topic/190405-8#post-4983301

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I was just wondering Frank if there's anything you wouldn't classify as a blind guess.

Let's take the conversion of Paul on the road to Damascus. For sake of argument assume it happened exactly as described in the Bible.

Now, if that did occur as described there could have been a supernatural explanation or it could be any number of other things, mental conditions, ailments or substances thst could have caused such hallucinations and comas.

Bearing all of that in mind, if Paul really did experience the Damascene conversion as described in the gospels would he still be making a blind guess when he decided to obey the voice, or would it be something else?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Fascinating thread, I somehow never saw it before. I shall read a bit more of it later. But I fully agree with the consensus expressed by all your friends there.

Ros summed it up well:

Quote:

@Frank Apisa from ros.
The two statements are inconsistent.

If you remove the words "do not" from both statements then you get:
"I believe gods exist" and "I believe there are no gods".

It is inconsistent to believe both of those things, and it it is equally inconsistent to not believe both of those things.

But I would not criticize you for it. I’m interested in how you embrace that contradiction and see truth in it. It was just such things that attracted me to Christ's words.

But the explanation of 'I do not do believing.' Falls short of explaining it. Why even pose a question containing the key word 'believe' if it is that foreign to you?

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

Fascinating thread, I somehow never saw it before. I shall read a bit more of it later. But I fully agree with the consensus expressed by all your friends there.

Ros summed it up well:

Quote:
@Frank Apisa from ros.
The two statements are inconsistent.

If you remove the words "do not" from both statements then you get:
"I believe gods exist" and "I believe there are no gods".

It is inconsistent to believe both of those things, and it it is equally inconsistent to not believe both of those things.

First of all...here are two more instances I just found. They are from 7 years ago…in a thread where you participated.
Don’t have much to do today, so reading over some old posts is fun.

https://able2know.org/topic/284810-1#post-5988983

There is the possibility you may know whether gods exist. There is no possibility you know that they do not.

https://able2know.org/topic/284810-1#post-5988985
I know that you cannot know that no gods exist. I have, on several occasions, acknowledged that one might know that a god exists.

Second...I got roasted in that thread, but I was correct. There was no contradiction at all.

There are people who "believe" gods exist. I AM NOT ONE OF THEM. I truly do not "believe" gods exist.

There also are people who "believe" no gods exist. I AM NOT ONE OF THEM EITHER. I truly do not "believe" no gods exist.

So I wrote, "I do not 'believe' gods exist...but I do not 'believe' there are no gods."

Not sure why you agree with the people who think there is a contradiction there...BUT THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION.

Quote:
But I would not criticize you for it. I’m interested in how you embrace that contradiction and see truth in it. It was just such things that attracted me to Christ's words.

But the explanation of 'I do not do believing.' Falls short of explaining it.

There is no contradiction.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Sorry, I added a last minute addition to my last post. I will take a look at the threads you suggested.

But the whole thing rests of whether anyone can reasonably believe something. That may include, but certainly not exclusive to God.

Edit: in your linked thread, you included this in the opening post:

Quote:

No reason to suppose at least one god has to exist.

That too I have challenged at length.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

I was just wondering Frank if there's anything you wouldn't classify as a blind guess.

There are tons of things I wouldn't classify as blind guesses. Please do not think I suppose everything that is not known for sure (but is asserted) is a blind guess. A bet on a football game, for instance, often is far from a blind guess. There are all sorts of things to take into consideration...estimated and calculated.

Quote:

Let's take the conversion of Paul on the road to Damascus. For sake of argument assume it happened exactly as described in the Bible.

Okay.

Quote:

Now, if that did occur as described there could have been a supernatural explanation or it could be any number of other things, mental conditions, ailments or substances thst could have caused such hallucinations and comas.

Absolutely.

Quote:

Bearing all of that in mind, if Paul really did experience the Damascene conversion as described in the gospels would he still be making a blind guess when he decided to obey the voice, or would it be something else?

It would not be a blind guess. But I have always suggested that other things might be in play. For one thing...IF THERE ACTUALLY IS A GOD (or gods)...and if the GOD decides it wants to reveal itself to someone...it seems inconceivable that the god could not do it. So...one thing it could be is Divine Revelation.

Of course, when that is advanced in an Internet discussion, the proper, reasonable, logical reaction should be: Okay, it is possible, but how do you know you are not being delusional?

It may be delusional, it may be insanity, it may be a lie, and it may be an actual Divine Revelation.

In my case, I am saying that I do not know if there are any gods...and I certainly have never had a case of Divine Revelation. I suspect that when someone wants a Divine Revelation...he/she will get it eventually. If you search and search for one...it will come. It will come from the God (of Abraham) or from Zeus or from whatever god you intend for it to come.

But attempting to show it is not delusion or insanity or coma or whatever...simply puts the individual back at square one.

2 Replies

@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

Sorry, I added a last minute addition to my last post. I will take a look at the threads you suggested.

But the whole thing rests of whether anyone can reasonably believe something. That may include, but certainly not exclusive to God.

Edit: in your linked thread, you included this in the opening post:
Quote:
No reason to suppose at least one god has to exist.

That too I have challenged at length.

I could not find that in the opening post of the links. I do use that expression, however, when I present my (agnostic) position. Here it is:

I do not know if any GOD (or gods) exist or not;
I see no reason to suspect that gods cannot exist…that the existence of a GOD or gods is impossible;
I see no reason to suspect that at least one GOD must exist...that the existence of at least one GOD is needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction on whether any gods exist or not...so I don't.

(When I use the word "GOD or gods" here, I mean "The entity (or entities) responsible for the creation of what we humans call 'the physical universe'...IF SUCH AN ENTITY OR ENTITIES ACTUALLY EXIST.)

If you want to discuss that...let's discuss.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I appreciate that, thanks for taking the time to give such a complete answer.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Okay, it is possible, but how do you know you are not being delusional?

Or brainwashed. That might explain why a large number of scientists and laymen alike actually believe life as we know it can come from sterile rocks, water and sunlight. Now THERE is reason to be suspicious of belief.

I can’t see why 'life' is not curious enough to at least suppose there was an intelligence behind it.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Late to drinks around the campfire. More later, enjoyable day…

2 Replies

@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
Okay, it is possible, but how do you know you are not being delusional?

Or brainwashed. That might explain why a large number of scientists and laymen alike actually believe life as we know it can come from sterile rocks, water and sunlight. Now THERE is reason to be suspicious of belief.

I can’t see why 'life' is not curious enough to at least suppose there was an intelligence behind it.

I suspect that is because you want the answer to the existence of life to be...because there is a GOD.

It is possible there is a GOD...or that there are gods...and that is the reason life exists.

It also is possible that there are no gods...and that life exists via some other genesis.

Existence, even without life, is an incredible mystery. To assign just one explanation for it, such as "it is the result of a GOD"...just makes no sense.

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

Late to drinks around the campfire. More later, enjoyable day…

Yup. Good conversation all around.

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@Leadfoot,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXp1CQA8YDw

2 Replies

Is freewill biblical or something we invented ?

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