I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

@joefromchicago,

Thomas wrote:

I am suggesting that "I do not believe proposition A" is a less specific statement than "I hold no belief concerning proposition A" and "I believe proposition A is False". The former statement is true if either of the latter two is true.

joefromchicago wrote:

Then the opposite would also, perforce, be correct, right? If I say "I believe proposition A," then that's true if I either take the position "I believe proposition A is true" or if I take the position "I hold a belief concerning proposition A." Correct?

No, that's incorrect. You want to construct the opposite of an "OR" statement, and you're doing it wrong. In general, the opposite of the statement "B OR C" is "(not B) AND (not C)". In our particular case, negating the first proposition I offered gets you "I believe proposition A". You've got that part right. But negating the "OR" conjunction of my latter two propositions, you get "I believe proposition A is true AND I hold a belief concerning proposition A". You need to do the logical negation properly on both sides of the equivalence relation. And when you do, your attempted reductio ad absurdum fails.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

No, that's incorrect. You want to construct the opposite of an "OR" statement, and you're doing it wrong.

I'm snot sure why that matters. I mean, we're not really talking about logical statements any more, are we. After all, your "OR" statement is nothing but a stated preference, based on ... well, I don't know, based on how you feel about those statements, I suppose. There's no logical necessity that mandates that "I do not believe A" be the equivalent of "I do not believe A is true" OR "I hold no belief as to A." You just think it sounds better.

Given that your "OR" statement is really an esthetic choice, there's nothing preventing you from saying that it's equivalent to my alternate formulation. What's preventing you, in other words, from adopting my esthetic choice? Certainly not logic.

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

Quote:

And that's where you're wrong. Saying "I do not believe" is not the same thing as saying "I express no belief."

Joe, almost immediately after starting this thread, (my first reply to responses) I wrote the following:

There is a truth in the title of this thread that is subtle…but very important to my philosophical position regarding whether gods exist or not.

But the fact that it is important to MY philosophical position is not as important as the fact that it is the essence of weak atheism.

The use of the word “believe” can lead to disorientation if you are not careful…and I want to point that out.

“I DO NOT BELIEVE GODS EXIST” (the first part of my title) merely tells you part of what I do NOT “believe” about the existence of gods. Essentially it is saying: I am not willing to express a belief that gods exist. It says absolutely nothing about what I do “believe”…or even if I “believe” anything about gods at all.

“BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE ARE NO GODS” (the second part) also tells you part of what I do NOT “believe” about the existence of gods. Essentially it is saying: I am not willing to express a “belief that gods do not exist.” It also says absolutely nothing about what I do “believe”…or even if I “believe” anything about gods at all.

I am not willing to express a belief that gods exist.
I am not willing to express a “belief that gods do not exist.”
The two clauses do not contradict one another in any way; they are not mutually exclusive.

Weak atheists have this position as part of their personal philosophy; it is something with which most weak atheists can feel comfortable, in fact, it is something that weak atheists tout as very important to their form of atheism. They do not “believe” in gods…but they are not expressing the notion that they (actively) “believe” gods do not exist.

I think anyone who sees the title as incoherent, illogical, or inconsistent is wrong, but I would enjoy discussing it.

That is a pretty thorough explanation that I was using my wording in its strictest sense. I understand that people can use the expression informally in other ways…but I explained exactly how I was using the clause. I was using it the way a weak atheist would use it…and I have never heard you or anyone else give any weak atheist on this forum any grief over its use in that form.

When a weak atheist says, “I do not believe gods exist” or “I do not believe there are gods”…all that weak atheist is saying is “I do not believe they exist.” They are NOT asserting there are no gods...nor are the asserting a belief that there are no gods. They are resting on "I have no beliefs that gods exist." The weak atheist IS saying “I have no belief in gods”…and the fact that the person is writing that down for all to read indicates he/she IS saying “I express no belief in gods.”

What drives you to make that distinction you are making in the face of what I have written here…and the fact that so many weak atheists make that distinction all the time without contention?

When I said “The use of the word “believe” can lead to disorientation if you are not careful…and I want to point that out.”…I was essentially referring to the fact that one can do what you are attempting to do here…to suggest that saying “I do not believe gods exist” is in some way equivalent to saying “I assert they do not exist”...or "I believe they do not exist."

The clause does nothing of the sort…certainly not in the king of discussion in which we are engaged…not with explanations of the sort I gave almost immediately to clarify the point of what I was doing...and not with the similar explanations weak atheists have given for similar comments over the years.

The salient point is that one can “not believe there are no gods” and “not believe gods do not exist”…and there is no contradiction in those two items all that.

Why can you not acknowledge that is so?

By now it has to be obvious.

1 Reply

@sozobe,

Quote:

Would you say that you are willing to fly in an airplane because you believe that aerodynamic forces will keep you aloft?

No I would not.

Quote:

If not, why not?

Because as I have told people here in A2K hundreds of times, I prefer to use words other than "believe" or "belief" because I see those words as ambiguous.

I am confident the plane will fly...and I expect it will stay aloft. My experience has been this will happen.

I am sure those same things hold true for people who were passengers in planes that have crashed. I hope I am never in that situation.

Not once did I use the word "believe" or "belief" here...and I am sure you understand what I said. I prefer not to use those words...and my words express exactly how I feel.

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@ossobuco,

Quote:

What am I, chopped liver?

Not at all. Have I missed something you said to which a reply is due? If so, I am sorry. Please point me to it and I will respond.

0 Replies

@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

Thomas wrote:
No, that's incorrect. You want to construct the opposite of an "OR" statement, and you're doing it wrong.

I'm snot sure why that matters. I mean, we're not really talking about logical statements any more, are we.

It doesn't matter to me, but it appeared to matter to you. Because you appeared to suggest there was something wrong with my interpretation of the sentence "I don't believe". If it doesn't matter to you, we can drop it.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Presumably you are going to continue to flog us to death with your version of religious agnosticism.

Dawkins would classify you as "a fence sitting intellectual coward" insofar that the scientific evidence is clearly weighted against the existence of popular depictions of a "God". I do not share Dawkins' view of "existence" but your naive realism indicates that you do ! You cannot escape to the mataphysical position that "gods are unknowable" and at the same time make any statement about their "existence" whether that includes the word "belief" or otherwise.

1 Reply

@fresco,

Quote:

Presumably you are going to continue to flog us to death with your version of religious agnosticism.

Really? You are being flogged to death?

Perhaps you are engaging in inappropriate sex. I am not involved...and I would suggest you refrain from this kind of thing. People have been know to get hurt.

Quote:

Dawkins would classify you as "a fence sitting intellectual coward" insofar…

Perhaps you have me confused with someone who would give a damn what Dawkins would classify anything or anyone as.

Quote:

… that the scientific evidence is clearly weighted against the existence of popular depictions of a "God".

Perhaps you have me confused with someone who is arguing for the existence of a GOD like the "popular depiction of a God." I am not that person and never have been.

Quote:

I do not share Dawkins' view of "existence" butyour naive realism indicates that you do !

Ahhh…I always love when you share how you view about the world, Fresco. Thank you for doing so.

Quote:

You cannot escape to the mataphysical position that "gods are unknowable" and at the same time make any statement about their existence whether that includes the word "belief" or otherwise.

Perhaps you have me confused with someone who asserts that “gods are unknowable.” I am not that person.

C’mon, Fresco, you can do better than this! In fact, you'd probably have a hard time doing worse than this.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Are you expounding or proselytizing, both or neither?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

joefromchicago initially wrote:

So let me ask, does this statement:

"I express no belief in the existence of god(s)"

accurately reflect your position?

To which Frank Apisa, in summary, wrote:

A lot of stuff that didn't address my question

I take it, then, that you have no interest in answering my question. Yet you expect me to answer yours? No, I don't think we can proceed on that basis.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

"I hold a belief as to the existence of gods. I do not believe they exist."

Is that contradictory, or are those statements equivalent?

0 Replies

I don't hold a belief about the existence of any god, but about the plausibilityof the descriptions i've heard, So far, i ain't buyin' it.

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@igm,

Quote:

Are you expounding or proselytizing, both or neither?

I am, as I said earlier, discussing (and provoking discussion of) a subtlety of language...and of the word "believe" in particular.

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

Quote:

So let me ask, does this statement:

"I express no belief in the existence of god(s)"

accurately reflect your position?

Actually, “I do not believe gods exist…I do not believe there are no gods” accurately reflects my position.

In any case, I am not expressing belief in the existence of gods…and I am not expressing belief that gods do not exist.

What is your problem with that explanation, Joe?

I am not trying to yank your chain…or be a jerk here.

I do not believe gods exist…and I am not expressing a belief that gods exist.

I do not believe there are no gods…and I am not expressing a belief that there are no gods.

Answer any of the questions I have asked…or don’t answer them. I will accept either.

Most are almost rhetorical, because I am perplexed by what you are getting at…or what you are attempting to get me to say that can make that position of mine any clearer.

1 Reply

It's interesting to parse out all the various -As vs. +As. , but seeing as how the Universe is, and always has been, eternal and unending, there is neither a need for gods nor a place for them.

Hence, arguing about the belief or non-belief in gods, despite the good exercise it provides for the mind, is a fool's errand.

Joe( 2 Cents

)Nation

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
Are you expounding or proselytizing, both or neither?

I am, as I said earlier, discussing (and provoking discussion of) a subtlety of language...and of the word "believe" in particular.

This seems evasive. I'll bring you back to the first part of your title:

Explain why you do not believe gods exist?

1 Reply

@igm,

Quote:

This seems evasive.

I see.

Does it seem evasive to you because of the font size; the font type; the font color; or a variety of all of those things?

Quote:

I'll bring you back to the first part of your title:

I am sure you meant you will attempt to do so...and I may indulge you.

Quote:

Explain why you do not believe gods exist?

Yeah, you seem to be a good person, so I will indulge you.

Mostly, I do not believe gods exist, because I do not do "believing" at all.

But if the essence of your question is: "Why are you not willing to guess that gods exist?"...I would probably include:

I see no unambiguous evidence that gods exist and I see no reason to suppose gods have to exist to explain existence.

Therefore I am unwilling to guess or "believe" that gods do exist.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

...and yet more nonsense about "not doing believing" !
Every time you cross a road junction on green you "believe" you are clear to proceed..... Every time you arrange a meeting for tomorrow you believe you and and the other party will still be alive to make it...etc,etc. As stated elsewhere, none of us, including you, would make a move out of bed without a plethora of "believing".

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
So let me ask, does this statement:

"I express no belief in the existence of god(s)"

accurately reflect your position?

Actually, “I do not believe gods exist…I do not believe there are no gods” accurately reflects my position.

In any case, I am not expressing belief in the existence of gods…and I am not expressing belief that gods do not exist.

What is your problem with that explanation, Joe?

My problem is that it's an evasive, quibbling non-answer. I expect better from you. Anyway, you say "I express no belief in the existence of gods" doesn't accurately reflect your position, but that "I am not expressing a belief in the existence of gods" does reflect it. I fail to see the distinction.

But this reveals far more about your personal motivations than about your intellectual position. For some reason you are intractably wedded to this largely incoherent formulation of your position, and this narcissistic thread is primarily designed to stroke your ego rather than to engage in any kind of constructive dialogue. If you are satisfied with expressing yourself in a muddled, incomprehensible fashion, then I certainly won't stop you.

1 Reply

Frank is just trying to establish his position, which he has in the past explicitly stated, that his position as an agnostic is intellectually superior to the position of either the theist or the atheist, which he sees as two sides of a single coin. Go figure.

0 Replies

I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

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