Rapture of the Church

neologist wrote:

I think we need to further define the nature of the new covenant.

I'm not too sure how that would help make your case about the catching away because I'm not sure you have presented much of your own view. (not that it has distracted from the focus of this thread, which seemed to fall off the tracks before the first page was done anyhow.)

So far all we have picked up is you don't like using the word "rapture" and you believe somehow there are two distinct groups of God's people going forward to two different locations from the time of the Lord's return.

Instead of a broad overview of the NT, why don't you state your view of the Second Coming in particular so we have something to compare (and if need be) contrast.

I have to tell you that I do not necessarily hold to what you may think is the "standard" evangelical view of the Second Coming. So don't assume too much.

But I would be interested to hear your view, and Momma Angel has also requested same of you. If you do not have a complete and clearly defined view, that's ok too. No need to hammer on something you are still building.

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The word often translated 'coming', parousia is more accurately translated 'presence'. A minor detail, perhaps. Perhaps.

Anyway those who are part of the new covenant are required to regularly partake of the unleavened bread and wine, a ceremony not available to those who preceded Jesus in death. (Such as John the Baptist)

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neologist wrote:

The word often translated 'coming', parousia is more accurately translated 'presence'. A minor detail, perhaps. Perhaps.

Anyway those who are part of the new covenant are required to regularly partake of the unleavened bread and wine, a ceremony not available to those who preceded Jesus in death. (Such as John the Baptist)

When Christ celebrated the event that has come to be known as the Last Supper, and what has come to be memorialized as the Lords Supper or communion, what was He actually doing?

He was partaking of a Passover meal. The believers of the Old Testament did this (or were supposed to) every year.

Jesus' disciples were given to understand that this meal found it's ultimate fulfillment in Christ. But the ceremony itself was not a strange thing that Jesus cooked up. They were very familiar with this celebration. They came to understand it in a different way, however.

Jesus made it very clear that His purpose was to be One Shepherd over one flock. The apostle's taught the same thing, the unity of believers of all eons. Those BC believers looked forward in time to God's Redemption. We in the AD era look back in time and see God's Redemption.

The date of our birth doesn't give us one destiny and others who were born long ago another destiny.

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So what did Jesus cook up for the last supper?

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

So what did Jesus cook up for the last supper?

Magnificent stroke of logic, Steve.

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real life wrote:

Jesus made it very clear that His purpose was to be One Shepherd over one flock. The apostle's taught the same thing, the unity of believers of all eons.

So, might we conclude from what you are saying that believers in Jesus would have, as a fundamental raison d'etre, a desire to have ALL people follow Jesus?

And, if my inference IS correct, what does that say about a devout Christian's respect for beliefs other than their own?

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It is states in the Bible this way:

Matthew 71-6: Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye" You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

To me this states that you are not to force what you believe down someone's throat because we all have sin of our own and should be concerned with dealing with our own sin.

I believe we are supposed to share what we believe with someone, but, if they reject it, rebuke us, or get angry, we are to stop doing it. (pearls before swine, giving dogs what is sacred). If we continue to try to shove it down one's throat we are then judging them and God will judge us in the same way.

We have free will, the decision to choose. God gave that to us and He would not have us take that away from someone else, but using intolerance is exactly what that (IMO) is.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

real life wrote:
Jesus made it very clear that His purpose was to be One Shepherd over one flock. The apostle's taught the same thing, the unity of believers of all eons.

So, might we conclude from what you are saying that believers in Jesus would have, as a fundamental raison d'etre, a desire to have ALL people follow Jesus?

And, if my inference IS correct, what does that say about a devout Christian's respect for beliefs other than their own?

Not sure how broadly you are stating your inference. By "unity of believers" , this does not refer to "anyone who happens to believe anything at all."

It is a phrase which refers to the unity of Jewish Christians with non Jewish Christians, as was specifically being wrestled with as an issue in the 1st century church. Both Christ and the apostles taught that there need be no difference between Jew and Gentile.

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real life wrote:

Both Christ and the apostles taught that there need be no difference between Jew and Gentile.

OK. Maybe I was not completely clear. When I wrote "all believers" I was really thinking of the folks who are totally immersed in the Christian faith, and attempt to spread Jesus' message to other people.

It sounds like the desired end result for devout Christians, is to convert Jews, and others, to Christianity, so that "there need be no difference between Jew and Gentile".

Getting back to my original question, my inference, by what you have said, is that to a devout Christian, there is basically something "wrong" with being a non-Christian, and the goal of the devout Christian is to bring others into their "flock". What is that goal saying about a devout Christians tolerence for beliefs other than his own?

What is your "take" on this?

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I think it says nothing at all about a Christian's "tolerence" for beliefs other than his own. The simple fact that Christians share the message of salvation through Christ with others only means that we believe strongly that only through Christ's sacrifice brings God's forgiveness of sin. How is that intolerence?

People are free to believe what they want. Most Christians do not go around shouting at others that their beliefs are wrong and that they are going to hell. I'm guessing it is that type of activity that you are calling intolerent. But believing and telling others that Christ in the only way to salvation is no different than you believing and telling others that Christianity is a bunch of bunk. And I don't think that you are intolerent of Christians, are you? Yet you are quick to get into discussions and attempt to show us that our beliefs are wrong. (Maybe not you personally, understand) Would that not also fit under the definition of intolerence that you are applying to Christians?

Of course, I leave open the possibility that my definition of intolerence is different than yours.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

real life wrote:
Both Christ and the apostles taught that there need be no difference between Jew and Gentile.

OK. Maybe I was not completely clear. When I wrote "all believers" I was really thinking of the folks who are totally immersed in the Christian faith, and attempt to spread Jesus' message to other people.

It sounds like the desired end result for devout Christians, is to convert Jews, and others, to Christianity, so that "there need be no difference between Jew and Gentile".

Getting back to my original question, my inference, by what you have said, is that to a devout Christian, there is basically something "wrong" with being a non-Christian, and the goal of the devout Christian is to bring others into their "flock". What is that goal saying about a devout Christians tolerence for beliefs other than his own?

What is your "take" on this?

Well, obviously you have posted here because you have a point of view, you believe it is right, and you would like to persuade me to see things your way.

Is it wrong for a Christian to do the same thing that you do?

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Amen, sister!

It's about time someone pointed out that "non-believers" are doing to Christians exactly what they accuse Christians of doing to them.

And, as a Christian, the reason I like to share my beliefs with others is because I do love others and I want good things for them also. Christ has changed my life immensely in the most wondrous of ways, and I want to share that with others.

It seems to me, the "non-believers" are the ones that are sharing negativity and no hope. And that is just my opinion. One atheist does come to mind, Madeline Murray O'Hare. Seems to me, all she did was display the kind of behavior that would make me WANT to believe because God forbid, I would ever feel as hateful, miserable, and hopeless as she seemed to be.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Amen, sister!

I always thought real life was a he.

Quote:

It's about time someone pointed out that "non-believers" are doing to Christians exactly what they accuse Christians of doing to them.

Oh, let's face it. There's at least someone of every faith and non-faith that's doing it. Doesn't mean we all do it.

Quote:

And, as a Christian, the reason I like to share my beliefs with others is because I do love others and I want good things for them also. Christ has changed my life immensely in the most wondrous of ways, and I want to share that with others.

Fair enough, but you must admit that that is a form of advertising. You're advertising your religion.

I don't mind, really, but I don't want to be suddenly accosted by advertisement where I don't expect to see it. There's a time and a place for adverts.

Quote:

It seems to me, the "non-believers" are the ones that are sharing negativity and no hope. And that is just my opinion. One atheist does come to mind, Madeline Murray O'Hare. Seems to me, all she did was display the kind of behavior that would make me WANT to believe because God forbid, I would ever feel as hateful, miserable, and hopeless as she seemed to be.

Oh, not all of them.

It's like how you get some preachers who preach nothing but Hellfire and all that.

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Oh, Real Life is a guy, thank you, I didn't know. Laughing

Wolf Wrote:

Quote:

Oh, let's face it. There's at least someone of every faith and non-faith that's doing it. Doesn't mean we all do it.

Thank you for conceding to my point.

Wolf Wrote:

Quote:

Fair enough, but you must admit that that is a form of advertising. You're advertising your religion.

I don't mind, really, but I don't want to be suddenly accosted by advertisement where I don't expect to see it. There's a time and a place for adverts.

Well, who does? But, why make such a big deal of it? Click on the "X" and move on. You do it with spam.

Wolf Wrote:

Quote:

Oh, not all of them.

It's like how you get some preachers who preach nothing but Hellfire and all that.

Gee, I guess using comments like "Christians of today" or "those Christians", etc. doesn't deserve the same, "Oh, not all of them?"

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Real life and I take pride in our rugged good looks and ability to take pummeling from the bad guys.

http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/boxing.gif

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Momma can take pummeling too. Momma just doesn't like double standards and bad words! Embarrassed

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Yeah, Mom. But real and I are guys, so we're tough. RRRRR!

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Maybe I should be using my Johnny Bravo avatar. What do you think, Momma?

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LOL. What I think is you two have a warped sense of humor! And I do mean that in the kindest of ways believe me! The kind of humor I do appreciate.

And, I am probably showing my age here, but who is Johnny Bravo? Any relation to Johnny Rebel? Laughing

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Johnny is a cartoon character that only my kids watch. Yeah right.

http://fridays.toonzone.net/jbvo.html

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