Rapture of the Church

neologist wrote:

Show me where it is in the bible.

Hi Neologist,

Since you cannot bring yourself to use the word "rapture" , what word if any, would you like to use in discussing the event outlined in I Thes 4:17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.

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Ok, this is where it is:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 - For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.

This is what I believe God wants for us.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 - For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

God does not want us to suffer. He wants us to be happy. I believe this now and always will.

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Correct. I don't like the word 'rapture', mainly because nominal christians don't realize the limited number to whom it will apply. The vast majority of mankind will enjoy life on a paradise earth - the life that Adam and Eve lost for us. That is why I continue to quote Proverbs 2:21,22.

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Momma Angel, you say the bible is God-breathed, yet you would have it changed so it would be easier for you to understand?

Rather than have the book changed yet again, it would behoove those who would like to understand it to read the works of biblical scholars who hold degrees also, generally, in archeology and linguistics. It is only in recent years that translations of ancient tablets, scrolls and manuscript have been completed to the point where it is generally thought that the Christian bible has been changed and added to -- most important, the teachings of Jesus.

We live in a free country where we are free to study whatever we need to know, and there are no book burnings as has occured in antiquity and on down through the ages.

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I have no idea where the word "rapture" came from in reference to Christ's second coming.

I looked it up in the dictionary and this is what it said:

a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things

So, do you know how it came to be known as the Rapture? I am sure if I did some research I could find out. But, you seem very knowledgeable about words and their origins.

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Sunlover,

A logical question given my statement. But no, I would not have the Bible changed. However, the Bible has been translated into many languages. Just because the words are French, English, German, etc., that does not change what the words mean. I wouldn't have a single meaning changed, let me put it that way. Does that make more sense?

I do appreciate you pointing that out to me. And yes, I do believe the Bible is God-breathed.

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sunlover wrote:

Momma Angel, you say the bible is God-breathed, yet you would have it changed so it would be easier for you to understand?

Rather than have the book changed yet again, it would behoove those who would like to understand it to read the works of biblical scholars who hold degrees also, generally, in archeology and linguistics. It is only in recent years that translations of ancient tablets, scrolls and manuscript have been completed to the point where it is generally thought that the Christian bible has been changed and added to -- most important, the teachings of Jesus.

We live in a free country where we are free to study whatever we need to know, and there are no book burnings as has occured in antiquity and on down through the ages.

When you read the writings of experts, pay attention in the same way as you would keep your hand on your wallet when shopping in a 'discount store'.

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Now, I like that bit of advice.

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neologist wrote:

Correct. I don't like the word 'rapture', mainly because nominal christians don't realize the limited number to whom it will apply. The vast majority of mankind will enjoy life on a paradise earth - the life that Adam and Eve lost for us. That is why I continue to quote Proverbs 2:21,22.

Where does I Thes 4 state that it applies to a limited number of Christians?

It states that "those who have fallen asleep [in death] through Jesus God will bring with him". (Note: God does not "send" them with Jesus. God "brings" them with Him. It is God coming with the saints accompanying him.)

Thus having gathered the "dead in union with Christ " and also "Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air"

When Christ gathers the living Christians and those who have died, that would seem to include all Christians of any time period. Please clarify your reference to a limited number.

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sunlover wrote:

Momma Angel, you say the bible is God-breathed, yet you would have it changed so it would be easier for you to understand?

Rather than have the book changed yet again, it would behoove those who would like to understand it to read the works of biblical scholars who hold degrees also, generally, in archeology and linguistics. It is only in recent years that translations of ancient tablets, scrolls and manuscript have been completed to the point where it is generally thought that the Christian bible has been changed and added to -- most important, the teachings of Jesus.

We live in a free country where we are free to study whatever we need to know, and there are no book burnings as has occured in antiquity and on down through the ages.

Hi Sunlover,

The New Testament writings in particular were translated into numerous languages within a relatively short period of time after being written.

Manuscripts of single books of the Bible, several books at once and on rare occasion a large number of books (manuscripts were very expensive to produce and longer manuscripts were generally speaking rarer, for this reason ) circulated throughout the ancient world in many languages.

The idea that the text of the Bible was tucked away and manipulated by a small group or sect cannot be supported. Believers took these books everywhere and disseminated them as quickly as possible. This rapid spread and translation of the Bible turned out to be the greatest safeguard against the type of changes that you assert occurred.

Contrary to your view that ancient manuscripts have only recently been translated, Bible translators for hundreds of years have had access to various ancient Bible manuscripts in various languages.

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real life wrote:

Where does I Thes 4 state that it applies to a limited number of Christians?

There are several references to the fact that two groups attain salvation. The vast majority of mankind will enjoy life on earth as God originally intended. A few will be taken into heaven.
Hence:

Luke wrote:

[Jesus said] "Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom." (Luke 12:32)

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neologist wrote:

real life wrote:
Where does I Thes 4 state that it applies to a limited number of Christians?
There are several references to the fact that two groups attain salvation. The vast majority of mankind will enjoy life on earth as God originally intended. A few will be taken into heaven.
Hence:
Luke wrote:
[Jesus said] "Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom." (Luke 12:32)

John 10:16 "And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

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OK, two groups. . .

Don't assume that the earthly class is inferior to the heavenly class. The earthly hope is what sustained Israel. Even John the Baptist, who died before the new covenant, will be there:

"Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is." (Matthew 11:11)

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Neologist, I have a question. I have not yet discerned exactly where you stand. To me, you have been back and forth. If it is me that is taking that wrong, I apologize. But, can you clarify for me?

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neologist wrote:

OK, two groups. . .

Don't assume that the earthly class is inferior to the heavenly class. The earthly hope is what sustained Israel. Even John the Baptist, who died before the new covenant, will be there:

"Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is." (Matthew 11:11)

Christ's statement seems pretty clear that we will all be in one place:

Matt 8:11 But I tell YOU that many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens

---------------------------
Christ has destroyed the division made by the Old Testament law:

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace

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And referring to the saints of the Old Testament in Heb 11, the writer describes their position in relation to us:

Heb 11:40 as God foresaw something better for us, in order that they might not be made perfect apart from us.

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justa_babbling_brooke wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
Why thank you! I am adding you to my personal list of those to pray for.

Awesome!!! I can always use it!

Never turns down anyone that wants to pray for me. And feels honored when someone does!

If Brooke is going to heaven, then it's a place I want to go too! Anyone got a map that I could use? On second thought, I'll just follow Brooke. It's probably a much better view that way anyway.

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If you want a map, pick up the Bible. Best map I know of.

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Really; real. Do you honestly think the God whose name means 'He who causes to become' would abandon his purpose to have the earth inhabited by humankind? That would be a victory for his opposer, would it not?

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neologist wrote:

Really; real. Do you honestly think the God whose name means 'He who causes to become' would abandon his purpose to have the earth inhabited by humankind? That would be a victory for his opposer, would it not?

I have never said that. There will be a new heavens AND a new earth where righteousness will dwell.

But the Bible is clear about the nature of the Second Coming of Christ, that He will come, that He will gather the believers of all eons together, etc.

Will we live in the new heavens after that? Or the new earth? Or both? Good questions. I'm not sure that either of us have that nailed down, or need to.

Wherever it is, it will be good. Christ will be there and we will walk in fellowship with Him as Adam did.

Rev 21:3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them.

4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away."

5 And the One seated on the throne said: "Look! I am making all things new." Also, he says: "Write, because these words are faithful and true."

6 And he said to me: "They have come to pass! I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free. 7 Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.

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I think we need to further define the nature of the new covenant.

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Rapture of the Church

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