2
   

Sigh, more lies about abuses

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 03:14 pm
You'll let us know when he fires up the ovens, right?
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 03:17 pm
McGentrix wrote:
You'll let us know when he fires up the ovens, right?


So because you government is not gassing and burning people, everything is okay? Is that your yardstick?

(Just want to make sure I got your point....)
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 03:27 pm
He's just being his usual jerk self.

Nothing productive to add, so he figures he'll poke the libs with a stick to see if they react.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 03:48 pm
Well, I might misremember that, but when I joined A2K, it seemed to me as if McG was among those righties who every now and then you could have a reasonable conversation with.

I'll admit that recently, he seems to limit himself to one liners and posting cartoons.... but it doesn't hurt to try, once in a while...
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 04:32 pm
old europe wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
You'll let us know when he fires up the ovens, right?


So because you government is not gassing and burning people, everything is okay? Is that your yardstick?

(Just want to make sure I got your point....)


Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 04:44 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Rolling Eyes


Well, I guess that means you didn't find a cartoon...
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 05:30 pm
Here, I will be like some of the liberals here and post an article instead of a cartoon.

The Comparison That Ends the Conversation
Senator Is Latest to Regret Nazi Analogy

By Mark Leibovich
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, June 22, 2005; Page C01

Someone should post a sign in the Senate cloakroom or wherever Important People Who Should Know Better will see it. The sign would warn politicians against comparing anything to the Nazis or Hitler or the Holocaust. These comparisons are not a good idea. Repeat : Not a good idea. It will only bring a massive headache, as Sen. Richard Durbin has learned (he'll take that Tylenol IV drip now, thanks).

Durbin, the Democratic whip, became the latest politician who couldn't make his point without comparing the matter at hand -- the alleged mistreatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba -- with the methods of the Nazis (and those of Pol Pot and the Soviet gulags, too).

It prompted yet another episode in what has become a familiar Kabuki in American political discourse: Someone invokes the behavior of Nazis in some non-genocidal context. This is followed by an outcry (in which members of the opposing party are "saddened"), condemnation from the Anti-Defamation League, futile attempts by the speaker to "clarify" his remarks, repeated calls for him to apologize and, inevitably, some acknowledgment of regret, often tearful.

Durbin's saga began June 14 on the Senate floor when he read from an FBI memo that described the ordeal of a prisoner at Guantanamo who was allegedly chained to the floor, forced to listen to loud rap music and subjected to extreme heat and bitter cold, among other unpleasantness. Durbin said: "If I read this to you and did not tell you it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime -- Pol Pot or others -- that had no concern for human beings."

Republican Sens. Mitch McConnell and John Warner condemned Durbin on the floor two days later. They were followed by about two dozen Republican senators (in news releases), Majority Leader Bill Frist (who called on Durbin to apologize on the Senate floor), Vice President Cheney, White House press secretary Scott McClellan and a host of veterans groups and conservative commentators.

After issuing a statement of "regret" on Friday, the Illinois Democrat came to the Senate floor yesterday to apologize in person. "Some may believe that my remarks crossed the line," Durbin said. "To them I extend my heartfelt apologies." Durbin also apologized to any soldiers who took offense at his remarks. "They're the best. I never, ever intended any disrespect for them," he said.

Taken in context, Durbin's premise -- that the techniques characterized in the FBI memo are consistent with those deployed by "mad regimes" -- is worth debating. But of course, such invocations are never debated in their precise context. "They will always be misconstrued and turned around, and that's why you should never compare anything to Nazis or Hitler," says Democratic strategist Paul Begala. "It's as basic a rule as there is in politics."

The rule is flouted all the time -- most recently by Sens. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) and Robert Byrd (D-W.Va.), who couldn't talk about judicial filibusters and resist equating the tactics of the opposing party to that of Hitler (whose views on the filibuster are not known).

Santorum was responding to the Senate Democrats' charge that Republicans were breaking the rules by opposing filibusters: "The audacity of some members to stand up and say, 'How dare you break this rule?' -- it's the equivalent of Adolf Hitler in 1942 saying, 'I'm in Paris. How dare you invade me? How dare you bomb my city? It's mine.' "

Byrd, defending his party's right to oppose Bush's judicial nominees, said, "Many times in our history we have taken up arms to protect a minority against the tyrannical majority in other lands. We, unlike Nazi Germany or Mussolini's Italy, have never stopped being a nation of laws, not of men."

Abraham Foxman, the Anti-Defamation League's national director and a reliable voice of condemnation whenever someone drops the N-bomb, says, as a general rule, politicians should know better. "It's kind of sad, because these are smart people who say these things," he says.

Foxman, a Holocaust survivor, says that the Nazi analogy is appropriate when someone is talking about an alleged mass murderer -- say, Saddam Hussein, whom supporters of both Iraq wars compared repeatedly to Hitler. "It doesn't have to be taboo in all cases," Foxman says.

Only most cases. Jim Manley, spokesman for Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid yesterday provided a compilation that included, among other things, a statement from Sen. James Inhofe (R-Okla.) last year in which he said the Kyoto Protocol "would deal a powerful blow on the whole [of] humanity similar to the one humanity experienced when Nazism and Communism flourished." Reid's office also charged that Inhofe and House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tex.) had compared the Environmental Protection Agency to the Gestapo, that Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.) had "linked stem cell research to Nazism" and that former Republican senator Phil Gramm "compared a Democratic tax plan to Nazi law."

All of this is consistent with the escalation of political rhetoric in general, says Deborah Tannen, a professor of linguistics at Georgetown and an expert on political discourse. She mentions the Senate debate over filibusters, in which the "nuclear option" loomed. And conservative commentator Rush Limbaugh, who rails against "feminazis." "It's all part of the same verbal inflation," Tannen says, adding that feminists generally refrain from torturing people.

There is a dictum in Internet culture called Godwin's Law (after Mike Godwin, a lawyer who coined the maxim), which posits that the longer an online discussion persists, the more likely it is that someone will compare something to the Nazis or Hitler.

According to the online encyclopedia Wikipedia, "There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress."
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 05:33 pm
The really odd think is McGentrix makes Mr rexred seem rational.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 05:39 pm
dyslexia wrote:
The really odd think is McGentrix makes Mr rexred seem rational.


more applicable here I think.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
He's just being his usual jerk self.

Nothing productive to add, so he figures he'll poke the libs with a stick to see if they react.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 05:50 pm
How cutting. Why, all my hopes of gaining friends here on A2K are dashed.

I don't think you post here for any other reason then to bait people. You used to, but it's been a long time since you've added substantial comment to the site.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 06:00 pm
Baldimo wrote:
The soldiers who took those pictures made one major mistake. They took pictures! There was nothing in those pictures that was harmful besides to ones pride and even that is very tame. Underwear on the head, naked pyramids barking dogs. It sounds like a wild gay pride parade in San Francisco but not torture.

Among other things, you are ignoring one basic fact about the Abu Ghraib torture.

You havent seen all of the pictures.

None of us have.

But some Congressmen have. And here's what Republican Congressman Lindsey Graham had to say about it, at the time, when he saw all those photos that have still not been publicly released:

"We're talking rape and murder here."

(As McGentrix was already told, for one, two years ago.)

But you just keep believing it was all nuthin more than a hazing- or gay parade-like thing.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 07:12 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
How cutting. Why, all my hopes of gaining friends here on A2K are dashed.

I don't think you post here for any other reason then to bait people. You used to, but it's been a long time since you've added substantial comment to the site.

Cycloptichorn


By substantial, you mean like comparing Americans troops to Nazi's?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 07:16 pm
nimh wrote:
Baldimo wrote:
The soldiers who took those pictures made one major mistake. They took pictures! There was nothing in those pictures that was harmful besides to ones pride and even that is very tame. Underwear on the head, naked pyramids barking dogs. It sounds like a wild gay pride parade in San Francisco but not torture.

Among other things, you are ignoring one basic fact about the Abu Ghraib torture.

You havent seen all of the pictures.

None of us have.

But some Congressmen have. And here's what Republican Congressman Lindsey Graham had to say about it, at the time, when he saw all those photos that have still not been publicly released:

"We're talking rape and murder here."

(As McGentrix was already told, for one, two years ago.)

But you just keep believing it was all nuthin more than a hazing- or gay parade-like thing.


Every one that was guilty of "torturing" prisoners has been punished and pretty much their futures are done in any meaningful way.

Comparing it to Nazi's is just plain follish.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 07:33 pm
Andrew Sullivan wrote:
Critics will no doubt say I am accusing the Bush administration of being Hitler. I'm not. There is no comparison between the political system in Germany in 1937 and the U.S. in 2007. What I am reporting is a simple empirical fact: the interrogation methods approved and defended by this president are not new. Many have been used in the past. The very phrase used by the president to describe torture-that-isn't-somehow-torture - "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is a term originally coined by the Nazis. The techniques are indistinguishable. The methods were clearly understood in 1948 as war-crimes. The punishment for them was death.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 08:10 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
How cutting. Why, all my hopes of gaining friends here on A2K are dashed.

I don't think you post here for any other reason then to bait people. You used to, but it's been a long time since you've added substantial comment to the site.

Cycloptichorn


By substantial, you mean like comparing Americans troops to Nazi's?


Comparing the actions of SOME American troops to the actions of the Nazis, yes. Your bullying little tactic of trying to make it look as if I am against the troops won't work on me.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Jun, 2007 06:14 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
woiyo wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Woiyo,

Did you read the article I posted:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/verschfte_verne.html

Read it, and then come back and tell me that it is ridiculous to reference this to Nazis, as it is exactly the same stuff that many of them were convicted for doing and put to death.

Cycloptichorn


Sleep deprevation was "one of many" techniques used in "ENHANCED INTERROGATION".

Then the article went on to describe what they usually did AFTER "sleep deprevation which includedbeatings, and ultimtely death to some.

Your exageration of the facts is equal to the hysteria the author of this clearly left wing rag was trying to communicate.


Clearly left wing?

I'll have to inform Andrew Sullivan that he isn't right-wing any longer.

There is no exaggeration, and it wasn't just sleep deprivation, but physical binding in positions; suspension off of the ground for extended periods; use of extreme heat and cold. We do all those things. Plus, yes, beatings and killings. This has taken place as well, as you know.

'Enhanced Interrogation,' the term the Bushies used to try and make their torturous acts look acceptable, was the same term used by the Nazis to make their low-level torture look acceptable. That's not exaggeration at all.

Cycloptichorn


Word are words. Actions are what matter. And for you to try to connect actions by the Nazis to actions of the US, clearly shows your ignorance to reality.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Fri 1 Jun, 2007 05:13 pm
Just a request on behalf of myself and (I would like to believe) the general A2K public:

Can we please ban the insipid use of "SIGH" in post titles and text?

Especially, if the user is a male.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Jun, 2007 05:17 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Just a request on behalf of myself and (I would like to believe) the general A2K public:

Can we please ban the insipid use of "SIGH" in post titles and text?

Especially, if the user is a male.


No.

Now stop being a jerk. If possible.

Cheers
Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Jun, 2007 05:54 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Every one that was guilty of "torturing" prisoners has been punished and pretty much their futures are done in any meaningful way.

Oh yes, the fair and proportional punishments that US soldiers who torture people are certain to get.

Like those guys who chained up two Afghan civilians to the ceiling for days and then proceeded to beat and smash their legs to pulp. One of them died of a pulmonary embolism caused by blood clots formed in the legs from the beatings. The legs of the other one had been beaten so badly that they would have had to be amputated - if the unfortunate man had survived. But he died too.

Those guys, yes, they faced justice - the one soldier deemed most responsible got 75 days in jail. 75 days, yes, for torture and murder, you read that right.

The others who helped tie the two men up and beat them? Of the 28 soldiers participating in the abuse of the prisoners, only four were punished. The only other soldier who went to prison got two months.

And all that aside from the fact that your response has no bearing whatsoever on the point that I was making re Baldimo's post.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Jun, 2007 05:58 pm
McGentrix wrote:
nimh wrote:
You havent seen all of the pictures.

None of us have.

But some Congressmen have. And here's what Republican Congressman Lindsey Graham had to say about it, at the time, when he saw all those photos that have still not been publicly released:

"We're talking rape and murder here."

(As McGentrix was already told, for one, two years ago.) [..]

Every one that was guilty of "torturing" prisoners has been punished and pretty much their futures are done in any meaningful way.

You're being told that even a Republican Congressman admitted that what happened there involved rape and murder, and you still insist on putting "torture" in quotation marks? You should be ashamed of yourself.
0 Replies
 
 

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