2
   

Sigh, more lies about abuses

 
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 04:03 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Well, not satisfying, truthfull, or complete answers, OE; but you will find answers.

Woiyo,

aren't you making a blanket statement RIGHT NOW about how a soldier should/would act? Each soldier is an individual. Many of them are probably disgusted with what we are doing.

Cycloptichorn


There are some, but they are in the minority not the majority.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 04:06 pm
Then, you are saying that these guys aren't 'good soldiers?'

I just want to get this straight, since you told me I was lying.

Oh, and here's a link for ya:

http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/reports/report.asp?ObjID=imOUU2rj8m&Content=608

The Bush admin is postponing the release of the rest of the Abu Ghraib photos and videos. Note the 'men, women, and children' part of the article, and ask yourself; are the soldiers who are disgusted with these pictures of WOMEN and CHILDREN bad soldiers?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 05:46 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Then, you are saying that these guys aren't 'good soldiers?'

I just want to get this straight, since you told me I was lying.

Oh, and here's a link for ya:

http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/reports/report.asp?ObjID=imOUU2rj8m&Content=608

The Bush admin is postponing the release of the rest of the Abu Ghraib photos and videos. Note the 'men, women, and children' part of the article, and ask yourself; are the soldiers who are disgusted with these pictures of WOMEN and CHILDREN bad soldiers?

Cycloptichorn


I never said anyone was a good or bad soldier. Those soldiers that have done stupid things that ended in peoples deaths should be dealt with to the full extent of the UCMJ. Those soldiers who put panties on people's heads should not be punished in the least. Breaking these suspects is important part of the interrogation process. Without breaking someone first it is much harder and near impossible to get information. These are not purse thief's we are dealing with here. These are military people who have been trained. The training must be broken through.

The soldiers who took those pictures made one major mistake. They took pictures! There was nothing in those pictures that was harmful besides to ones pride and even that is very tame. Underwear on the head, naked pyramids barking dogs. It sounds like a wild gay pride parade in San Francisco but not torture.

They should still be using those level 3 information-gathering techniques. If they worked then keep using them.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Feb, 2007 12:33 pm
Finally, the truths which we have seen buried are beginning to reveal themselves.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/08/AR2007020801680_pf.html

Quote:
By Eric Fair
Friday, February 9, 2007; A19

Aman with no face stares at me from the corner of a room. He pleads for help, but I'm afraid to move. He begins to cry. It is a pitiful sound, and it sickens me. He screams, but as I awaken, I realize the screams are mine.

That dream, along with a host of other nightmares, has plagued me since my return from Iraq in the summer of 2004. Though the man in this particular nightmare has no face, I know who he is. I assisted in his interrogation at a detention facility in Fallujah. I was one of two civilian interrogators assigned to the division interrogation facility (DIF) of the 82nd Airborne Division. The man, whose name I've long since forgotten, was a suspected associate of Khamis Sirhan al-Muhammad, the Baath Party leader in Anbar province who had been captured two months earlier.

The lead interrogator at the DIF had given me specific instructions: I was to deprive the detainee of sleep during my 12-hour shift by opening his cell every hour, forcing him to stand in a corner and stripping him of his clothes. Three years later the tables have turned. It is rare that I sleep through the night without a visit from this man. His memory harasses me as I once harassed him.

Despite my best efforts, I cannot ignore the mistakes I made at the interrogation facility in Fallujah. I failed to disobey a meritless order, I failed to protect a prisoner in my custody, and I failed to uphold the standards of human decency. Instead, I intimidated, degraded and humiliated a man who could not defend himself. I compromised my values. I will never forgive myself.

American authorities continue to insist that the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib was an isolated incident in an otherwise well-run detention system. That insistence, however, stands in sharp contrast to my own experiences as an interrogator in Iraq. I watched as detainees were forced to stand naked all night, shivering in their cold cells and pleading with their captors for help. Others were subjected to long periods of isolation in pitch-black rooms. Food and sleep deprivation were common, along with a variety of physical abuse, including punching and kicking. Aggressive, and in many ways abusive, techniques were used daily in Iraq, all in the name of acquiring the intelligence necessary to bring an end to the insurgency. The violence raging there today is evidence that those tactics never worked. My memories are evidence that those tactics were terribly wrong.

While I was appalled by the conduct of my friends and colleagues, I lacked the courage to challenge the status quo. That was a failure of character and in many ways made me complicit in what went on. I'm ashamed of that failure, but as time passes, and as the memories of what I saw in Iraq continue to infect my every thought, I'm becoming more ashamed of my silence.

Some may suggest there is no reason to revive the story of abuse in Iraq. Rehashing such mistakes will only harm our country, they will say. But history suggests we should examine such missteps carefully. Oppressive prison environments have created some of the most determined opponents. The British learned that lesson from Napoleon, the French from Ho Chi Minh, Europe from Hitler. The world is learning that lesson again from Ayman al-Zawahiri. What will be the legacy of abusive prisons in Iraq?

We have failed to properly address the abuse of Iraqi detainees. Men like me have refused to tell our stories, and our leaders have refused to own up to the myriad mistakes that have been made. But if we fail to address this problem, there can be no hope of success in Iraq. Regardless of how many young Americans we send to war, or how many militia members we kill, or how many Iraqis we train, or how much money we spend on reconstruction, we will not escape the damage we have done to the people of Iraq in our prisons.

I am desperate to get on with my life and erase my memories of my experiences in Iraq. But those memories and experiences do not belong to me. They belong to history. If we're doomed to repeat the history we forget, what will be the consequences of the history we never knew? The citizens and the leadership of this country have an obligation to revisit what took place in the interrogation booths of Iraq, unpleasant as it may be. The story of Abu Ghraib isn't over. In many ways, we have yet to open the book.

The writer served in the Army from 1995 to 2000 as an Arabic linguist and worked in Iraq as a contract interrogator in early 2004. His e-mail address [email protected].


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 May, 2007 11:37 pm
Powerful piece by Andrew Sullivan

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/verschfte_verne.html

'Enhanced Interrogation,' or the term which our gov't uses to describe the torture they perform, was invented by - you guessed it - the Nazis. And we convicted people of torture for it. The same stuff we use today.

AND the Nazis argued that because they enemies weren't a uniformed army, they shouldn't be covered. They got convicted anyways.

Mad

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
username
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 May, 2007 12:17 am
I remember reading something about how the FBI interrogators were appalled at the whole abusive-practices-which-look-like-torture-even-if-you-deny-they-are-we-just-want-to-break-their-psyches-apart-so-they'll-babble approach. FBI maintained with a whole lot of heat that that whole approach was counterproductive. Basically when or if they broke they'd say anything just to get it to stop. They'd name anybody at all, whether there was any connection or not, just so the abuse would end. The FBI, in other words, found the end result was completely unreliable. They had much better results with a non-abusive talking-to-each-other-in-a-non-threatening-context which won the prisoner over, and produced reliable testimony. The FBI was edged out, because their methods didn't fit the Rumsfeld paradigm, even tho they were convinced they worked far better.

Not to mention the fact that a number of investigative reports have found that a high percentage of the Gitmo and Abu Ghraib prisoners have no apparent connection to militants-=-they were rounded up haphazardly, were turned in for a bounty, were reported because of an unrelated vendetta against them, or were simply icked up by accident. So we've been doing something that looks pretty much like torture to people that couldn't tell us anything anyway because they weren't terrorists.
0 Replies
 
username
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 May, 2007 12:20 am
Maybe that's the way you think your free and democratic country which respects people's rights even if they didn't happen to be born in America should behave. It's not the way I think my country should act. It's not the way to get others to repect us, because we don't deserve respect if we do it.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 May, 2007 06:31 am
What a pussy that guy is. He has nightmares because he made people stay awake?

Figures the libbies would raise him up on their alter.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 07:01 am
How can anyone have faith in this Democratic Party when THIS is considered "torture"?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 08:51 am
woiyo wrote:
How can anyone have faith in this Democratic Party when THIS is considered "torture"?


When what is considered torture?

The same stuff we convicted Nazis for doing to people?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 10:48 am
"The lead interrogator at the DIF had given me specific instructions: I was to deprive the detainee of sleep during my 12-hour shift by opening his cell every hour, forcing him to stand in a corner and stripping him of his clothes."

Yea...this is real bad stuff.

You Nazi reference reflects your ignorance.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 10:56 am
woiyo, do you think that sleep deprivation, forcing detainees to stand or degradation or not techniques that should be described as torture?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 11:10 am
Woiyo,

Did you read the article I posted:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/verschfte_verne.html

Read it, and then come back and tell me that it is ridiculous to reference this to Nazis, as it is exactly the same stuff that many of them were convicted for doing and put to death.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 11:29 am
It's ridiculous to reference Nazi's. The only reason to do so is to compare the current administration with something everyone hates. I am sure there is a neat latin phrase to describe this fallacy.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 11:36 am
McGentrix wrote:
It's ridiculous to reference Nazi's. The only reason to do so is to compare the current administration with something everyone hates. I am sure there is a neat latin phrase to describe this fallacy.


Did you RTFA?

Tell me specifically how it is ridiculous to compare the actions they did with the actions we are doing, and maybe you will have some credibility.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 11:47 am
Why not compare them to the Romans? The North Vietnamese? The guy from the Hostel movie?

It's ridiculous to reference the Nazi's.

They starved and tortured (in the real sense of the word) millions to death and burned them in ovens. Often while they were alive. The atrocities of the Nazi's have nothing to do with the Bush administration and are only used to provoke negative feelings.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 11:51 am
McGentrix wrote:
Why not compare them to the Romans? The North Vietnamese? The guy from the Hostel movie?

It's ridiculous to reference the Nazi's.

They starved and tortured (in the real sense of the word) millions to death and burned them in ovens. Often while they were alive. The atrocities of the Nazi's have nothing to do with the Bush administration and are only used to provoke negative feelings.


I'll ask you one more time: DID YOU READ THE ARTICLE?

If you did, then you know why the comparison is made: because we tried and convicted Nazis for doing the same things that our soldiers have been told to do. We used the same terms to describe the techniques. It isn't just some random comparison.

We never tried nor convicted the Romans, the NV, or the guy from the Hostel movie.

Shees, RTFA before you comment, plz!!!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 11:52 am
McGentrix wrote:
Why not compare them to the Romans? The North Vietnamese? The guy from the Hostel movie?

It's ridiculous to reference the Nazi's.

They starved and tortured (in the real sense of the word) millions to death and burned them in ovens. Often while they were alive. The atrocities of the Nazi's have nothing to do with the Bush administration and are only used to provoke negative feelings.



You can compare the "special interrogation methods" to those of the Eastern German police, or to the Pinochet regime, or to the Khmer Roughe, or the KGB if you don't want to compare them to the Secret State Police of the Third Reich.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 02:08 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Woiyo,

Did you read the article I posted:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/verschfte_verne.html

Read it, and then come back and tell me that it is ridiculous to reference this to Nazis, as it is exactly the same stuff that many of them were convicted for doing and put to death.

Cycloptichorn


Sleep deprevation was "one of many" techniques used in "ENHANCED INTERROGATION".

Then the article went on to describe what they usually did AFTER "sleep deprevation which includedbeatings, and ultimtely death to some.

Your exageration of the facts is equal to the hysteria the author of this clearly left wing rag was trying to communicate.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 May, 2007 02:32 pm
woiyo wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Woiyo,

Did you read the article I posted:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/verschfte_verne.html

Read it, and then come back and tell me that it is ridiculous to reference this to Nazis, as it is exactly the same stuff that many of them were convicted for doing and put to death.

Cycloptichorn


Sleep deprevation was "one of many" techniques used in "ENHANCED INTERROGATION".

Then the article went on to describe what they usually did AFTER "sleep deprevation which includedbeatings, and ultimtely death to some.

Your exageration of the facts is equal to the hysteria the author of this clearly left wing rag was trying to communicate.


Clearly left wing?

I'll have to inform Andrew Sullivan that he isn't right-wing any longer.

There is no exaggeration, and it wasn't just sleep deprivation, but physical binding in positions; suspension off of the ground for extended periods; use of extreme heat and cold. We do all those things. Plus, yes, beatings and killings. This has taken place as well, as you know.

'Enhanced Interrogation,' the term the Bushies used to try and make their torturous acts look acceptable, was the same term used by the Nazis to make their low-level torture look acceptable. That's not exaggeration at all.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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