2
   

Sigh, more lies about abuses

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2007 09:53 am
The entire point of me reposting the Sullivan article was to show that , yes, McG, the stuff that wasn't just a 'few bad apples,' but actual policy. The 'enhanced interrogation' that was sanctioned by the US government is extremely similiar to the German 'enhanced interrogation' programs, which we - the US - tried and sentenced people to death for doing. Now we are doing it. It isn't right.

You cannot avoid this fact by repeating things over and over and over. It's intellectually dishonest.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2007 10:26 am
The problem is that the Nazi's went much further then the examples the article gave which was my point. They weren't killed for putting prisoners in stress positions. They were killed for making lamp shades with prisoners skins. The Nazi's did lots of things many governments have done. That doesn't mean that a comparison should be made. It's retarded to do so and only a fool would do so.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2007 10:33 am
McGentrix wrote:
The problem is that the Nazi's went much further then the examples the article gave which was my point. They weren't killed for putting prisoners in stress positions. They were killed for making lamp shades with prisoners skins. The Nazi's did lots of things many governments have done. That doesn't mean that a comparison should be made. It's retarded to do so and only a fool would do so.


You didn't really read the article Cycloptichorn referred to, did you? Because then you would have noticed that it was an article not about "Nazis", but about officers of the Secret State Police (Gestapo) of the Third Reich. And they were not sentenced to death for "making lamp shades with prisoners skins". No.

They were sentenced to death for following these regulations:

http://i13.tinypic.com/4vq800l.jpg

They were sentenced to death for freezing prisoners to near-death, repeated beatings, long forced-standing, waterboarding, cold showers in air-conditioned rooms, stress positions [Arrest mit Verschärfung], withholding of medicine and leaving wounded or sick prisoners alone in cells for days on end.

After the Second World War, this was obviously considered to be torture. The punishment for that was a death sentence.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2007 10:52 am
If you want to compare that to the memo where Rumsfeld okay'd these "counter-resistance techniques", you can find it here.

These are the "Category III" techniques listed in that memo:

http://i11.tinypic.com/5y8r60h.jpg

http://i17.tinypic.com/52qfknq.jpg
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jun, 2007 09:26 am
Naturally, no Conservative or Bush supporter has the sac to actually address this issue. They'd rather ignore it and pretend that we are the 'good guys' no matter what actions we take.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/17332904.htm

Quote:
WAR ON TERROR

Human rights groups say there are over 39 'ghost detainees'

By Warren P. Strobel
McClatchy Newspapers

WASHINGTON - At least 39 people from a half-dozen countries have been held in secret U.S. detention centers worldwide for three or more years, and their fates remain unknown, six human-rights groups say in a report to be released Thursday.

Human rights advocates said that the document, which they called the most comprehensive account yet of so-called "ghost detainees," raises new alarms about the Bush administration's practice of secretly detaining suspected terrorists without any legal proceedings.

In five instances, the report says, U.S. authorities detained the wives or young children of suspects held in secret prisons. And in four instances, terrorism suspects in U.S. custody may have been transferred to Libya, once a major adversary of Washington.

"It should be a sobering alarm bell that rattles us all out of our collective slumber," said Curt Goering, a top official at Amnesty International, which helped prepare the report.

A CIA spokesman, Paul Gimigliano, suggested that there were inaccuracies in the report but wasn't specific.

"There's a lot of myth outside government when it comes to the CIA and the fight against terror," he said. "The plain truth is that we act in strict accord with American law, and that our counterterror initiatives - which are subject to careful review and oversight - have been very effective in disrupting plots and saving lives."

President Bush publicly acknowledged last September that terrorism suspects had been held in clandestine prisons, and defended the practice and CIA interrogation methods as legal.

Bush announced that 14 "high value detainees," including the alleged architect of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, had been transferred to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and said "there are now no terrorists in the CIA (detention) program." He reserved the right to detain top terrorists secretly in the future.

Suspicions that the program was still active appeared to be confirmed in late April, when a 15th alleged senior al Qaida operative, Abdul Hadi al Iraqi, was sent to Guantanamo after being held secretly for months. Now it appears that the secret CIA program is more extensive than the administration has acknowledged.

The new report is based on public documents and interviews with government officials and witnesses, including Marwan Jabour, a Palestinian who was held in secret U.S. detention for two years and released last July.

It describes some detainees already known from news reports or government documents as well as five who hadn't been reported on before: four Libyans and a Somali.

"There may well be more that nobody knows about," Goering said. Amnesty International USA, the New York-based Center for Constitutional Rights and the New York University School of Law's International Human Rights Clinic said they planned to file a federal lawsuit Thursday to force the disclosure of information about secret detainees.

The other groups involved in compiling the report, titled "Off the Record," are Human Rights Watch; Reprieve, based in London; and Cageprisoners, whose chief spokesman, Moazzam Begg, is a former Guantanamo detainee.

The report comes at a difficult time for Bush's war-on-terrorism policies.

Last week, the Senate Intelligence Committee said the CIA's secret detention program should be ended unless the administration demonstrated that its value in fighting terrorism outweighed the damage done to America's global image.

On Monday, two judges at Guantanamo blocked the administration's planned military commissions to try detainees accused of war crimes. The authors of "Off the Record" acknowledge that all 39 detainees may not still be in U.S. custody, and some may have been transferred to the control of other countries. One such country is Libya, which now plays a bigger role in U.S. counterterrorism operations than was previously known.

The report cites four cases in which terrorism suspects in U.S. custody may have been transferred to Libya. One of them is Ibn al Sheikh al Libi, whose allegations that Iraq advised al Qaida on developing weapons of mass destruction - since recanted - formed part of the U.S. case for invading Iraq.

The report is available online at http://hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/ct0607


Yup, kids.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jun, 2007 06:01 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Naturally, no Conservative or Bush supporter has the sac to actually address this issue. They'd rather ignore it and pretend that we are the 'good guys' no matter what actions we take.


Coming from someone who thinks the solution to illegal immigration is blowing people up (yeah, that'll teach 'em a lesson), this is hilarious.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jun, 2007 06:09 pm
HokieBird wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Naturally, no Conservative or Bush supporter has the sac to actually address this issue. They'd rather ignore it and pretend that we are the 'good guys' no matter what actions we take.


Coming from someone who thinks the solution to illegal immigration is blowing people up (yeah, that'll teach 'em a lesson), this is hilarious.


That's a nice opinion that you have, but little more.

And it most certainly does not address the topic; the fact that no Conservative or Bush supporter has the sac to actually address this issue.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jun, 2007 07:07 pm
They're obviously no match for the testicular fortitude of a thug like you....a legend in his own mind.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jun, 2007 10:35 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Naturally, no Conservative or Bush supporter has the sac to actually address this issue. They'd rather ignore it and pretend that we are the 'good guys' no matter what actions we take.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/17332904.htm

Quote:
WAR ON TERROR

Human rights groups say there are over 39 'ghost detainees'

By Warren P. Strobel
McClatchy Newspapers

WASHINGTON - At least 39 people from a half-dozen countries have been held in secret U.S. detention centers worldwide for three or more years, and their fates remain unknown, six human-rights groups say in a report to be released Thursday.

Human rights advocates said that the document, which they called the most comprehensive account yet of so-called "ghost detainees," raises new alarms about the Bush administration's practice of secretly detaining suspected terrorists without any legal proceedings.

In five instances, the report says, U.S. authorities detained the wives or young children of suspects held in secret prisons. And in four instances, terrorism suspects in U.S. custody may have been transferred to Libya, once a major adversary of Washington.

"It should be a sobering alarm bell that rattles us all out of our collective slumber," said Curt Goering, a top official at Amnesty International, which helped prepare the report.

A CIA spokesman, Paul Gimigliano, suggested that there were inaccuracies in the report but wasn't specific.

"There's a lot of myth outside government when it comes to the CIA and the fight against terror," he said. "The plain truth is that we act in strict accord with American law, and that our counterterror initiatives - which are subject to careful review and oversight - have been very effective in disrupting plots and saving lives."

President Bush publicly acknowledged last September that terrorism suspects had been held in clandestine prisons, and defended the practice and CIA interrogation methods as legal.

Bush announced that 14 "high value detainees," including the alleged architect of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, had been transferred to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and said "there are now no terrorists in the CIA (detention) program." He reserved the right to detain top terrorists secretly in the future.

Suspicions that the program was still active appeared to be confirmed in late April, when a 15th alleged senior al Qaida operative, Abdul Hadi al Iraqi, was sent to Guantanamo after being held secretly for months. Now it appears that the secret CIA program is more extensive than the administration has acknowledged.

The new report is based on public documents and interviews with government officials and witnesses, including Marwan Jabour, a Palestinian who was held in secret U.S. detention for two years and released last July.

It describes some detainees already known from news reports or government documents as well as five who hadn't been reported on before: four Libyans and a Somali.

"There may well be more that nobody knows about," Goering said. Amnesty International USA, the New York-based Center for Constitutional Rights and the New York University School of Law's International Human Rights Clinic said they planned to file a federal lawsuit Thursday to force the disclosure of information about secret detainees.

The other groups involved in compiling the report, titled "Off the Record," are Human Rights Watch; Reprieve, based in London; and Cageprisoners, whose chief spokesman, Moazzam Begg, is a former Guantanamo detainee.

The report comes at a difficult time for Bush's war-on-terrorism policies.

Last week, the Senate Intelligence Committee said the CIA's secret detention program should be ended unless the administration demonstrated that its value in fighting terrorism outweighed the damage done to America's global image.

On Monday, two judges at Guantanamo blocked the administration's planned military commissions to try detainees accused of war crimes. The authors of "Off the Record" acknowledge that all 39 detainees may not still be in U.S. custody, and some may have been transferred to the control of other countries. One such country is Libya, which now plays a bigger role in U.S. counterterrorism operations than was previously known.

The report cites four cases in which terrorism suspects in U.S. custody may have been transferred to Libya. One of them is Ibn al Sheikh al Libi, whose allegations that Iraq advised al Qaida on developing weapons of mass destruction - since recanted - formed part of the U.S. case for invading Iraq.

The report is available online at http://hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/ct0607


Yup, kids.

Cycloptichorn


It is tremendously ironic that a Liberal, who so often swears upon moral relativism, is so quick to apply Manichean principles to his view of his own country.

Only a foolish zealot will argue that the vast network of individuals that. collectively, are considered the US are without sin.

Clearly there have been and will continue to be transgressions by individuals that are representatives of the US. Where, in the world, is this not the case? Shangrila?

If one's expectations for America reside at the level of perfection, America will always fail.

It takes no great intelligence to find specific fault when the metric is perfection, and so any number of low grade minds feel a sad satisfaction with their ability to enumerate America's sins.

Reality, however, doesn't ever contemplate perfection, and so, if we wish to remain intellectually relevant, we are forced to consider context.

The context here is that there has never, throughout all of history, been a more, generally, benign empire that America. If you feel you can refute this claim, please make the attempt.

Those who really know Cyclo can probably tell us of his virtues and his sins. Chances are the virtues outweigh the sins, but if our expectation is that Cyclo is a perfect specimen of humanity than any sin is unacceptable.

It is easy to find fault. The question is what sort of personality defect leads to incessant fault finding?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2007 10:51 am
We're talking about official policies, not 'individuals.'

Quote:


If one's expectations for America reside at the level of perfection, America will always fail.


Perfection? Hardly. I'd settle for mediocrity.

You failed to specifically address any of the points brought up, which is unsurprising; they are indefensible. If the best you can do is an indictment of those who are 'incessantly finding fault,' your argument is pretty weak.

Today:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,487325,00.html

Quote:
The illegal deportation of suspects by CIA kidnapping teams in Europe amounts to a "massive and systematic violation of human rights," the report says.

[Dick] Marty, who conducted the investigation on behalf of the Council of Europe, accuses the CIA of having committing a number of transgressions: "We believe we have shown that the CIA committed a whole series of illegal acts in Europe by abducting individuals, detaining them in secret locations and subjecting them to interrogation techniques tantamount to torture."


I really could care less if you have a low opinion of those who are 'incessantly finding fault,' Finn. I'd rather be that guy then an apologist for terrible actions such as the Conservative branch of America.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2007 02:28 pm
I believe this part is all that needs to be gleaned from Cyc's "article".

Quote:
A CIA spokesman, Paul Gimigliano, suggested that there were inaccuracies in the report but wasn't specific.

"There's a lot of myth outside government when it comes to the CIA and the fight against terror," he said. "The plain truth is that we act in strict accord with American law, and that our counterterror initiatives - which are subject to careful review and oversight - have been very effective in disrupting plots and saving lives."

President Bush publicly acknowledged last September that terrorism suspects had been held in clandestine prisons, and defended the practice and CIA interrogation methods as legal.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2007 02:47 pm
McGentrix wrote:
I believe this part is all that needs to be gleaned from Cyc's "article".


Yeah? Why? Because you're not interested?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2007 02:51 pm
I don't know why you would put the word article in quotes; it very obviously is an article. I mean, I do know why you did it - to cast aspersion on the veracity of the article - but that's such a stupid way of addressing a situation, why, I just can't imagine that that's the best you can do, McG.

It's all in the wording, too -

Quote:
The plain truth is that we act in strict accord with American law


Sure, because the techniques authorized by Bush - the ones that the US in the past considered to be torture, and actions worth the death penalty - ARE American law.

And when we get other countries to do our dirty work of torture and interrogation; that's within the law too.

None of that makes it ethically or morally right! WTF happened to the Republican party, that the ONLY THING that matters any longer is legality.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2007 02:54 pm
Meanwhile, in Italy:

Quote:
CIA agents on trial in Italy

MILAN, Italy (Reuters) -- Twenty six U.S. citizens, almost all believed to be CIA agents, went on trial in absentia on Friday accused of kidnapping a Muslim cleric in Milan and flying him to Egypt.

The court case, highlighting one of Washington's most controversial policies in its war on terrorism, started hours before President George W. Bush was due to visit Italy.

Muslim cleric Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr, also known as Abu Omar, was on Washington's list of terrorist suspects and he says he was tortured under interrogation in Egypt after his so-called extraordinary rendition from Italy.

As expected, none of the Americans turned up in court and only one Italian agent was present. The trial got under way with empty cages lining two walls of the courtroom.

0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2007 02:59 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I mean, I do know why you did it - to cast aspersion on the veracity of the article


All documents are available directly at the website of the Council of Europe...
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2007 03:32 pm
Let my highlight for you why I placed "article" in quotes.

First of all, the "article" is based on an as of yet to be published report and uses conjecture and hyperbole to make accusations that can not be substantiated.

For example:
Quote:
And in four instances, terrorism suspects in U.S. custody may have been transferred to Libya, once a major adversary of Washington.


They may not have been as well. No evidence.

Another example:
Quote:
The new report is based on public documents and interviews with government officials and witnesses, including Marwan Jabour, a Palestinian who was held in secret U.S. detention for two years and released last July.


WHat witnesses? What govt officials? It's interesting that a Palestinian, who was locked up for suspicians of being a terrorist gets trusted, but only when divulging secrets that make the US government and more importantly, the Bush administration appear evil.

It's no secret that you, Cycloptichorn, and people like do not take the war on terror seriously. You are soft on terrorism and I doubt it ranks in the top 10 issues concerning you behind such important topics as illegal immigrants stealing American resources, the degradation of the American economy, the demilitarization of America and taxing the wealthy to benefit those that won't do for themselves.

Keeping the names and locations of terrorists a secret is a matter of national security. reports like this serve no purpose beyond exposing national secuity secrets and programs designed to be secret on purpose.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2007 11:54 am
There was no 'couple of bad apples.' That's a lie.

Quote:
Seventy to ninety percent of the detainees at Abu Ghraib, according to an October 2003 International Committee of the Red Cross report and sworn statements made by members of the 470th Military Intelligence Group, the 519th Military Intelligence Battalion, and the 304th Military Intelligence Battalion, were arrested by mistake or had no intelligence value.

Provance met one of the prisoners who seemed to be there for the wrong reason. "They got him to the point where he was naked, shivering, and covered in mud and then showed him to his father. That's what broke [General Zabar] down after a 14-hour interrogation," says Provance. "He said, 'I'll tell you anything.'"

"It struck me as morally reprehensible," Provance says.

In November, he says, he overheard a conversation in the dining hall at Camp Victory. One soldier told his friends at a cafeteria table how detainees were being treated in Abu Ghraib. "They would hit the detainees as practice shotsÂ…The detainees would plead for mercy," according to Provance's sworn statement in Major General Antonio Taguba's March 2004 report on military abuse, "Article 15-6 Investigation of the 800th Military Police Brigade."

"The whole table was howling with laughing," Provance tells me.


http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=robotripping_at_abu_ghraib

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2007 11:55 am
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/06/25/070625fa_fact_hersh?printable=true

Quote:
Taguba, describing the moment nearly three years later, said, sadly, "I thought they wanted to know. I assumed they wanted to know. I was ignorant of the setting."

In the meeting, the officials professed ignorance about Abu Ghraib. "Could you tell us what happened?" Wolfowitz asked. Someone else asked, "Is it abuse or torture?"

Rumsfeld was particularly concerned about how the classified report had become public. "General," he asked, "who do you think leaked the report?" Taguba responded that perhaps a senior military leader who knew about the investigation had done so. "It was just my speculation," he recalled. "Rumsfeld didn't say anything." (I did not meet Taguba until mid-2006 and obtained his report elsewhere.) Rumsfeld also complained about not being given the information he needed. "Here I am," Taguba recalled Rumsfeld saying, "just a Secretary of Defense, and we have not seen a copy of your report. I have not seen the photographs, and I have to testify to Congress tomorrow and talk about this." As Rumsfeld spoke, Taguba said, "He's looking at me. It was a statement."

At best, Taguba said, "Rumsfeld was in denial." Taguba had submitted more than a dozen copies of his report through several channels at the Pentagon and to the Central Command headquarters, in Tampa, Florida, which ran the war in Iraq. By the time he walked into Rumsfeld's conference room, he had spent weeks briefing senior military leaders on the report, but he received no indication that any of them, with the exception of General Schoomaker, had actually read it. (Schoomaker later sent Taguba a note praising his honesty and leadership.) When Taguba urged one lieutenant general to look at the photographs, he rebuffed him, saying, "I don't want to get involved by looking, because what do you do with that information, once you know what they show?"


There's lots more, of course.

Importantly, however, those at the top... didn't want to know. They didn't give a f*ck about what was going on, because they simply didn't care if Iraqis were being hurt or not. They didn't want to take any action or actually solve the problem, they only wanted it to be hidden.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2007 12:42 pm
You seem angry. Thinking about blowing up some poor Mexicans again?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2007 12:46 pm
HokieBird wrote:
You seem angry. Thinking about blowing up some poor Mexicans again?


Nothing like a flip answer to show that you have nothing productive to add to the conversation. You're really kind of turning into a troll, yaknow, and that's sad.

Since you asked, yes, I am angry. Quite.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
GAFFNEY: Whose side is Obama on? - Discussion by gungasnake
 
Copyright © 2022 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 07/03/2022 at 06:42:18