Ignorance is not bliss

This is silly.

You are getting upset about a comment made on a TV show. You don't know this woman. You don't know how she feels. You don't know the boss. You don't know their relationship. You really don't know anything about this situation except for your own bias.

You are taking a TV show and fitting into your own narrative to get upset.

This is the reason that feminism is failing. There are real issue to deal with, issues of pay equality, and sexual harrassment, and how to get women to enter fields like engineering. I am completely willing to talk to feminists about real issues provided that we can figure out how to make the workplace and society in general more fair for everyone.

But it gets so silly when every comment, every song lyric, every phrase is analyzed ad nauseum. This nit-picking nonsense looking for offense everywhere doesn't help anyone.

I agree with feminists on many of the basics. Women should be paid equally, better represented in positions of power and protected from abuses of power. But now feminists are continually offended at trivialities. It is really annoying.

True that.

There are many women who don't "just get it". The majority of women are not feminists.

My daughter loves Musicals. Feminists have attacked one of her favorite musicals "Grease" because of a line "tell me more-- did she put up a fight?". When my daughter heard that feminists think this song is offensive, she thought it was ridiculous.

I teach my daughter to be strong, to stand up for herself and to expect to be treated fairly. She is now a young woman, and she is every one of these things. I want her to have a fair shot in any profession and to be treated as an equal to anyone else.

There is an idea in modern feminism that my daughter somehow needs to be shielded, or protected for her somehow delicate nature. It is nonsense.

I am not going to teach my daughter to whimper at every perceived slight or to look for offense in everything she hears. She will go out and pursue a career for herself just as my sons did. And, she is just as anyone-- she is already a badass. I am proud of her and confident that she will succeed wherever she ends up.

Feminists don't speak for women... the majority of women are not feminists. Women don't need the kind of feminism that seeks to protect them from life.

Your daughter is a kid.

Let's see if she still thinks it's ridiculous when SHE puts up a fight against being sexually harassed, abused or violated.

My daughter is now a teen, and very close to being an adult. She thinks for herself.

But let gets to the point....

1. It will be very bad if my daughter (or my sons for that matter) is sexually harassed, abused or violated.

2. My daughter is not going to be damaged by some off-handed comment at work. Actually my daughter is likely to be the person making these off-handed comment.

My daughter can see the difference just fine. Can you?

Again Max, your daughter is a kid. She hasn't faced many instances that she's been the object of somebody's sexual misconduct. Add 40 years. and a lifetime of innuendo, off handed comments, intimidation or fear, then we'll talk.

As difficult as it is in this patriarchal world, let us momentarily move away from genders and say that when anyone in a position of power makes a subordinate feel personally oppressed in some manner; it is wrong.

Majorly this is male onto female as we know, this is where Weinstein, Epstein and the prince all come into it; it is the basis of 'Me too' of course.

My own wife is a tall, slim, pretty blond, vivacious lady, who is a Dr of Psychology + Dr of Criminology and indeed is the world leader in her specialisation. Does she wear a blouse or anything which is not neck high when working outside of the house? No. Does she wear a skirt? No.

Why? Because some, only some, males cannot manage to contain themselves and think that her legs and breasts are more interesting than her (professionally tested) genius mind. My wife is a socially power person and she still has this stupidity from some males.

Neither my wife or I have time for 'feminism' because that is trying to push the pendulum to the other side. It is often to punish men for the historical mess that mostly religion has created, the patriarchal world where genitals carry more weight than abilities ... What we need is egalitarianism

We can all see that one person here is huffing and puffing. That is because when one section of any society has endless privilege, any move toward equality means they feel they are being discriminated against. We must remember that one person gaining a 'right' means another person has just lost one.

Is that sort of male dying out? Not as fast as most people would like to imagine, patriarchal society is still alive and well ..... pushing most of the power buttons ..... When my wife first became a Dr she was offered a job in a university as a research assistant, which in essence is little more than a fairly highly paid admin clerk, working for some man ... Because mostly all dept heads are male.

Much to their chagrin she said 'No thanks' and started her own consultancy ... She advises governments and major companies on policy issues and does much other work, along with her own research and publishing. But for all she is, which is magnificent and significant, she still had a moment of 'Can I' because there is so much pressure on women saying 'No, you can't'

In essence, men need to realise they are not doing a female a 'favour' by coming onto them no matter how tenuous the act ... Put the damn thing back in your trousers and grow up man-child.

You don't speak for all women Neptune. There are a lot of women who don't feel the way that you do. I know this, because I have women friends and a girlfriend. That is part of the problem with feminism... it takes a narrative and applies it everywhere. Most women say that they are not feminists.

I don't know your experience, Neptune. I take you at your word for what you say. But I do know this; "Innuendo" is not rape, and it is silly (if not harmful) to confuse the two.

I think it is good to have a discussion about how to make our society more fair for women. In many cases I will agree with you. Some of the things you say don't make sense to me. That is how a discussion works.

Right now we have cases where a man saying "women's lingerie" on an elevator leads to people wanting to threaten his career. Feminism is ridiculous at times. In reality women are often the people making the innuendo and no one would say that it counts as sexual harrassment.

The idea that women are pure little innocent things incapable of "dirty" thoughts is itself both outdated and demeaning.

Racism is not lynching and it is silly if not harmful to confuse the two.

You don’t speak for any men, just sad intel losers who feel threatened by a thread like this.

1) Just to clarify.... I am "huffing and puffing" at the extremism. I agree with the core principles of equality and eliminating sexual harassment. Feminism takes this narrative of "patriarchy" to a ridiculous extent.

2) Did you "come on" to your wife (using your words)? I personally don't think that eliminating sexual interest is a good idea. If no one shows sexual interest towards anyone, our society will literally cease to exist.

- The real problem is sexual harassment. We want to provide a equal, comfortable workplace for women and men. Absolutely; fire men who abuse their power to get sexual favors, or who pressure women, or degrade women. Hopefully you agree what women who abuse their power (and yes, this takes place) should be fired as well.

- I agree that we should take steps to put more women into positions of power.

- Where I disagree is the extremism that sees everything as sexual harassment. It is too much when every comment is interpreted as harassment and every advance is rape.

The extremism is the problem.

Hi Izzy

Nothing to say as usual.

We've had this discussion before Max.

The tone and inflection of the "women's lingerie" was meant to shock and demean a female elevator passenger. You don't acknowledge that part, you only want to see your own perspective.

As again, with this post, a woman states her opinion, you try to derail and ridicule her perspective. Until men, specifically YOU, quit doing that, feminism will be front and center.

Oh, Alice! I do indeed share and feel, ever so sincerely and deeply, your frustration. Yes, even as a male of the alleged human species, I have witnessed such crude behavior many times over. Often it is men subjecting women to varied levels of direct taunts upon them, and as you have noted, men pleading with women for complimentary commentary.

Sadly, it goes in the other direction as well. And, from woman to woman and man to man. Then too, perhaps it was in the situation that you described, part of a planned and rehearsed, scripted routine. Not knowing who this monster male host is, I cannot be entirely (or at all) certain.

Further Alice, it happens on the other side of the looking glass as well. Of course, you likely know that as you've done time there.


Thou must beware the Jabberwock, the Jubjub bore and above all else, I implore thee: Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!


No, Alice, the world we are in, is not all of it Wonderland. However, seeing that the slime Harvey Weinstein has met his fate, know what great progress is occurring.

She probably doesn't wear a skirt because you have worn them all out. What a simp.

Charles Dodgeson was a bit of a perv by all accounts. The Alice books weren’t quite as innocent as they seemed.

Also they usurp your 4th July celebrations.

Yep. This kind of sexual behavior is not appropriate in a workplace. It has nothing to do with the job. His behavior is grounds for a harassment complaint from the employee.

This is the description of the horrible offense that allegedly took place.

How is this sexual harassment? I would like to know what the exact comment was... but not everything a man says to a woman at work is sexual harassment.

Not everything a man says to a woman at work is sexual harassment, but the behavior as described in the OP is of a sexual nature that has nothing to do with the job, and according to the description, is abusive.

I don't know the details of the employee's situation, but if the conduct is severe or pervasive enough to create a work environment that a reasonable person would consider intimidating, hostile, or abusive, it would be grounds for a complaint.

I doubt this is a one-off occurrence.