5
   

Ignorance is not bliss

 
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2020 02:24 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Sure, but that is different from the incident described by the OP. Instead of making up straw man arguments to flail against, try addressing the argument made by the OP.


A straw man argument means that I am ascribing an argument to the OP. I am not doing that here. Instead I am adding my own example to demonstrate the point that I am making. I never suggested that this was the argument that the OP was making.

Is this a homework assignment for you, InfraBlue? You seem to have a list of vocabulary words on rhetoric that you need to check off....

If so, I am glad to help you.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2020 02:35 pm
Max Recap of the Thread
Where we review the main points of the thread without the silly nonsense.

The OP reacted to a TV show she saw. The only facts we know is the rather vague statement that he was "sort of fishing for her to compliment how attractive he is".

1. We agree that some behavior is sexual harrassment. Actions that are threatening, demeaning, intimidating or create a hostile work environment are all bad and should not be tolerated.

2. InfraBlue linked to the EEOC website (which I accept). We seem to agree with the "reasonable person" standard.

3. I stated that the rules should be the same for men and women. If a woman can compliment a mans appearance, then a man should be able to compliment a woman's appearance. I walked this back a bit with based on context. I don't know if anyone agrees with me on this.

4. I stated that if someone does or says something that offends me at work, I will tell the person in question. Of course, in very egregious cases this doesn't apply. But in many cases things can be worked out person to person. No one commented on this point.

5. It is my belief that in the US right now there is an overreaction. Classic songs have been banned from the radio. People's have been reported for making fairly innocent jokes.

I am not willing to say that "whenever anyone is offended, there is an offense". Nor am I willing to accept that the standards should be different for men and women.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2020 02:37 pm
@maxdancona,
Get a life you sad man.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2020 02:50 pm
@maxdancona,
You're obtuse. The reaction was emotional, a personal response to which you responded with the word "hysterics," a term regarding emotions. It wasn't her opinion to which you directed your ad hominem attack, assuming you're not ignorant of the words you use.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2020 03:02 pm
@InfraBlue,
Funny! "You're obtuse" is definitely an ad hominem Wink.

Let's take these examples.

1. You are a moron.

2. You are wrong because because the facts clearly show that pork is a white meat.

3. That statement is racist because it ignores the historical facts

4. You are responding in an angry way, but that isn't warranted

In my understanding of "ad hominem" a statement has to be an attack on a person. It can't be an attack on their ideas, or their specific behavior. Under this definition... #1 is an ad hominem. The rest aren't ad hominems (#2 and #3 are attacking facts and arguments, and #4 is attacking a specific emotional response).

If you call one of my statements "racist", I can deal with it. I may listen to your reasoning (or not). But you are commenting on a specific example. We can discuss and disagree on that one point without affecting our ability to think rationally and objectively on other points.

But if you say that I am a racist... then you will likely reject all of my arguments whether they are good arguments or not. Believe or not, sometimes I happen to make a good point (there are times when even Izzy agrees with me).

Which examples do you believe are ad hominems? (If everything is an ad hominem to you, then the term doesn't mean anything).,

InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2020 03:11 pm
@maxdancona,
You are correct. Your argument is more accurately a red herring. Thanks.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2020 03:13 pm
@maxdancona,
Yes it is an ad hominem, similar to "you are being silly."
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2020 03:19 pm
@maxdancona,
I love that the cute song by the title of "Baby it cold out there" from the 1950s had been ban from some radio stations under the theory that a man or woman singing that due to the weather the woman or man should not leave the apartment is promoting rape of all things!!!!!!

maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2020 03:25 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Yes it is an ad hominem, similar to "you are being silly."


I don't believe that "you are being silly" is an ad hominem. It is a comment on a specific behavior or expression rather than a comment on a person.

I suppose we disagree.


InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2020 03:28 pm
@maxdancona,
A comment on a specific behavior of a specific person instead of the person's argument itself is indeed an ad hominem attack.

Verily, we disagree.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2020 03:29 pm
@BillRM,
Bill Bill Bill! You are killing me!

I know your version came first, but come on... Ray Charles and Better Carter rocked this song.

0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2020 03:36 pm
@BillRM,
When my daughter (who loves musicals) heard that feminist were slamming this song, she got the point of how ridiculous feminists can be. This is very clearly a consensual relationship that both participants are happy about, and yet it isn't good enough.

Feminists are silly. (And I accept that this is an ad hominem).


BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2020 03:43 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:


https://koit.com/baby-its-cold-outside-update/

“BABY, IT’S COLD OUTSIDE” IS BACK ON BAY AREA RADIO

96.5 KOIT has returned the song Baby, It’s Cold Outside to its Christmas music playlist. After hearing from thousands of Bay Area listeners via polling, phone calls, emails and social media, KOIT has concluded that the vast majority consider the song to be a valuable part of their holiday tradition, and they still want to hear it on the radio.

After KOIT began its 100% Christmas music programming on November 16th, the station received complaints from some listeners regarding the song’s lyrics. On Monday, December 3, KOIT Program Director Brian Figula opted to place the song on hold while seeking further listener feedback. The decision to pause on the song received extensive coverage from local and national news organizations.

“KOIT’s listeners have spoken, and the overwhelming message is they do want to hear Baby, It’s Cold Outside on our station, as they have throughout the years,” said Figula. “More than seven out of every ten listeners who responded said although some lyrics of the song may reflect a different era and a different sensibility than today, still they love the tradition and history of the song, and want to hear it as part of their holiday season.”

“At KOIT, we always listen carefully when our listeners take time to comment. In this case, it was very obvious what they wanted us to do.”

####
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2020 04:09 pm
@neptuneblue,
neptuneblue wrote:

We've had this discussion before Max.

The tone and inflection of the "women's lingerie" was meant to shock and demean a female elevator passenger. You don't acknowledge that part, you only want to see your own perspective.

As again, with this post, a woman states her opinion, you try to derail and ridicule her perspective. Until men, specifically YOU, quit doing that, feminism will be front and center.


Women in your universe seems to be children that need layer after layer of legal protections

The result of treating any adult or groups of adults as children is not good for the so call 'children'. Take note that the current Vic President will not allow himself to be alone in meetings with any woman but his wife an sadly that example is spreading with the results that women are become protected second class citizens in both the work place and society as a whole.
neptuneblue
 
  2  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2020 04:11 pm
@BillRM,
Ok, well, it's not that I value your opinion.

So, there's that.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2020 04:14 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Not everything a man says to a woman at work is sexual harassment, but the behavior as described in the OP is of a sexual nature that has nothing to do with the job, and according to the description, is abusive.

I don't know the details of the employee's situation, but if the conduct is severe or pervasive enough to create a work environment that a reasonable person would consider intimidating, hostile, or abusive, it would be grounds for a complaint.

I doubt this is a one-off occurrence.


Keep the women as must as possible out of the workplaces as who need a legal land mines that can be trigger with one unwise comment.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2020 04:14 pm
@neptuneblue,
You don’t know the half of it. BillRM of today is very muted compared to what he used to post.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2020 04:20 pm
@Alice Liddell,
Alice Liddell wrote:

@maxdancona
Yes... issues of pay equality, and sexual harassment, and how to get women to enter fields like engineering are important I agree. However this nit-picking you refer to sounds like you're suggesting that we should all let the small things slide. Where do we start drawing lines on what's worthy or not worthy of discussion? Who decides what needs to be addressed and what doesn't? You? It sounds like you're attempting to make the rules for all of us, and that you decide what concerns of ours are legitimate by your standards. Surely you can see that putting yourself in that position is going to piss people off.

Your stance on this is that of one person. Telling others what should and should not be important to them is not your place. Express your opinion and let others do the same without telling them that their concerns are not important enough to talk about.




The results once more will be not hiring anymore females engineers then you need to as who need such problems in the work place if you can avoid it by picking males instead of females whenever you can do so for job openings.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2020 04:30 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

You don’t know the half of it. BillRM of today is very muted compared to what he used to post.


LOL everyone get old if they do not get run over by a car first
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2020 06:10 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
@maxdancona,
Not everything a man says to a woman at work is sexual harassment, but the behavior as described in the OP is of a sexual nature that has nothing to do with the job, and according to the description, is abusive.


LOL so every times a couple that work at the same workplace get it on the man is guilt of abused?

Bill Gates abused a middle manager at his company by having a relationship with her that I am fairly sure was sexual in nature given he later married her and have children with her.

No way should Gate had been allow to have relationship of a sexual nature that has nothing to do with the job with the poor woman that was a far far lower level employee.

0 Replies
 
 

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