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The Dunning-Kruger effect, sound like someone you know?

 
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2020 08:34 am
@oralloy,
Conversely, you can't show even one of your howlers with any sort of documentation.

I don't have to prove you wrong, you have to prove you're right.

Try it once, it just may wake you up to the lie that you're living.
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2020 08:46 am
The ultimate Dunning-Kruger-er

https://i0.wp.com/www.dailycartoonist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/madam.jpg
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2020 09:34 am
@bobsal u1553115,
That's an American problem we got rid of Corona back in the 80s.

https://www.doyouremember.co.uk/uploads/Qw34GPIBcorona-vintage.jpg

I still miss it.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2020 10:23 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

You are completely wrong about a basic principle of high school physics. "Momentum/inertia" is not a form of propulsion. In fact, if you took a high school class... the very first thing you would learn is Newton's first law (which is about inertia). The second thing you would learn is Newton's second law (which is about propulsion). In a Physics high school class, you would have to use these concepts to solve actual problems. You would get the wrong answers because you don't understand the difference.

(sigh) I know these laws. What I keep trying to explain to you is that they actually mean something. They're not just words to justify equations and calculations. You won't understand the deeper meaning because your thinking is limited to seeing active propulsion and passive momentum as fundamentally different, and resisting thinking about how they are related and why that is fundamentally relevant to understanding Newton's perspective/physics.

Quote:
This is literally the most basic Physics. You are wrong. The stuff about "passive locomotion" is just nonsense you are making up yourself.

I am trying to explain the physics to you but you aren't opening your mind to actually think about the dogma you've learned. You have memorized Newton's laws at the rhetorical level and learned to use the equations and calculate quantities, but you haven't synthesized it into a deeper understanding of motion/energy, which is ultimately the point.

Quote:
There are two problems you have.

1) You don't know basic Physics.
2) You are claiming to have expertise.

You think the point of science is to attain status and assert expertise over others for the sake of power and hierarchy, but that is not the point of science or any other true form of education, really.

At least not unless you regard education as a tool for achieving authoritarian rule over mindless automatons.

Quote:
So let's ask the real question here relating to the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Where do you think your knowledge of Physics comes from? What would someone have to do to reach your level of expertise in the subject?

You could start by understanding how an object in motion remains in motion until/unless acted upon by external force.

Then you could understand how propulsion influences an object's motion by employing external force and action/reactions.

Then you could understand how friction is the product of interaction between a moving object and external force.

Then you could understand how inertia can be understood as a form of propulsion insofar as it keeps objects moving so long as they overcome the friction that they are interacting with.

Once an object's momentum succumbs to friction and it ceases to be in motion, its inertia serves as a force to anchor it against external forces that could otherwise cause it to overcome friction and begin moving.

Basically you just have to start reasoning about various examples/situations of motion and force-interactions to flesh out what you essentially understand from learning physics and doing the math. Math is a useful beginning and tool, but you can go farther by fleshing out how it applies to analyzing the vast array of real-world situations that can be either observed directly or modeled in terms of thought-experiments.

Think of your mind as a word-problem generator and flesh out all the possible scenarios you could use these analytical terms to interpolate physical reality. The word-problems don't have to be solvable using math, or they might be but not in an efficient way. The point isn't to actually set up and solve the problem using variables and numbers but rather to practice modeling physical realities in ways that 'dissect' them down to constituent parts/processes that interact to make up complex systems.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2020 10:37 am
@livinglava,
This is not a thread about Physics. This is a thread about the Dunning-Kruger effect, which you are kindly demonstrating.

1) You have made up your own version of Physics, which is radically different from the version of Physics that is taught in schools.

2) You haven't explained at all where you think your insight into physics came from. You apparently just made stuff up.

3) Your ideas are laughable nonsense to anyone who has passed a high school Physics course. Your idea that inertia "anchors" an object so that it won't react to external forces should be comedy. It rejected by Newton's second law... but more than that, it is simply ridiculous.

This is the Dunning-Kruger effect.

If you want to discuss why your ideas are wrong... we could start another thread. Or, better yet, you could go on Amazon and get a high school Physics textbook.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2020 11:01 am
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:
Conversely, you can't show even one of your howlers with any sort of documentation.

Wrong again. I can back up all my facts with reputable cites. That's why you cannot provide any examples of me ever failing to do so.


bobsal u1553115 wrote:
I don't have to prove you wrong, you have to prove you're right.

That is easily done since I am actually right.


bobsal u1553115 wrote:
Try it once,

Your implication that I don't already do this is just another one of your dishonest false accusations.


bobsal u1553115 wrote:
it just may wake you up to the lie that you're living.

I'm not living any lie.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2020 11:50 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
That's an American problem we got rid of Corona back in the 80s.


But the North American version better than Coors, barely.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1341/5633/products/Corona.jpg?v=1541584170

0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2020 12:30 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

This is not a thread about Physics. This is a thread about the Dunning-Kruger effect, which you are kindly demonstrating.

The Dunning-Kruger effect may have some relevance, but hopefully you can see how it is just as prone to abuse as every other psychological label that people toss around in their insult power-games.

You can just insult/ridicule people by telling them they overestimate their own intelligence without using a fancy name like "Dunning-Kruger" for it, which in and of itself indicates the people using the term are suffering from the effect they're labeling others with.

Quote:
1) You have made up your own version of Physics, which is radically different from the version of Physics that is taught in schools.

I didn't make up anything. You are so dogmatic and lacking in critical thinking skills that you would argue that II+II=IV is 'a made up version of arithmetic' instead of being able to understand how it means the same thing as 2+2=4 using different numerical symbols.

Quote:
2) You haven't explained at all where you think your insight into physics came from. You apparently just made stuff up.

Has anyone ever taught you that 813+17=830? Probably not, yet you can apply your addition skills to figuring it out. Doing so isn't "making stuff up," and neither is it "inventing new mathematics." It's just applying knowledge in a critical way. You would understand that if you had any critical thinking skills.

Quote:
3) Your ideas are laughable nonsense to anyone who has passed a high school Physics course. Your idea that inertia "anchors" an object so that it won't react to external forces should be comedy. It rejected by Newton's second law... but more than that, it is simply ridiculous.

Objects resist changes in momentum due to their inertia. Objects in motion tend to remain in motion, and thus objects at rest tend to remain at rest. I have no idea what you think you understand when you cite Newton's laws, but just memorizing the words and equations and being able to do calculations accurately does not add up to comprehension.

Maybe your worship of math is an indication of Dunning-Kruger. Skills like math and classificatory/rhetorical logic can lead people to BS themselves about their own intelligence levels, even to the point of asserting that science is what they want it to be, i.e. a reason to do math, and nothing more.

I was reading about sophistry recently, and it seems to be related to that.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2020 02:15 pm
@farmerman,
Consulting is where the money is, and proximity to people with social lives is a nice plus, too.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2020 04:12 pm
@maxdancona,


Im not sure Ll wants to understand. Hes more interested in being RIGHT.
Try to explain inertia backwards, like what would a bullet do after the cartridge was fired? or what would happen to a baseball after release from the pitcher's hand?
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2020 09:10 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:



Im not sure Ll wants to understand. Hes more interested in being RIGHT.
Try to explain inertia backwards, like what would a bullet do after the cartridge was fired? or what would happen to a baseball after release from the pitcher's hand?


I can't 'become' right because everything I'm saying is already right. I'm just trying to get Maxadona to understand extrapolations of Newton's laws beyond memorizing the words, equations, and being able to manipulate them algebraically, calculate quantities, etc.

He keeps telling me that I am making up some new version of physics because he doesn't seem to understand physics beyond memorization of dogma and doing math.

The annoying thing about this Dunning-Kruger effect thread is it's just another use of mental-health stigma to mock and ridicule a scapegoat, like when you describe my posts as 'word salad.'

Stupid criticisms that contain nothing more than ridicule are empty content, but confirmation bias due to fear of siding with a bullied person causes people to default on the side of critics against those criticized, no matter how weak and unsupported the criticism is.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2020 05:02 am
@livinglava,
you should pay attention to max , or else explain to us wrt your own "inertial experience" what the term means to you.(Hint: it aint a force,).

livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2020 12:07 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

you should pay attention to max , or else explain to us wrt your own "inertial experience" what the term means to you.(Hint: it aint a force,).

Everything I've explained about physics is true, yet you and Max are trying to pretend like it's not.

You're both lying, and it's because you have no scientific integrity; only an interest in demonizing people like me who don't promote educational institutions as the only possible means of learning and developing intellect/knowledge/science.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2020 01:22 pm
@livinglava,
LivingLava wrote:
Everything I've explained about physics is true


On one side we have LivingLava Physics.
On the other side we have academic Physics.

LivingLava Physics is quite different than academic Physic even on the basics, such as the difference between force and momentum.

It seems like LivingLava physics is based simply on what seems right to LivingLava. There are no mathematics. There is no room for discussion, he simply declares that "everything I've explained about Physics is true".

Academic Physics has accountability. The mathematics of Physics are checked and have to match up with experiment. When two people disagree on Physics, they have something called the scientific process... an objective agreed upon way to decide what is true. In real Physics, nothing is simply declared to be "true", it has to be proven.

Yes, we mock LivingLava. I think he deserves it. I don't think we have "demonized" him.

But his declaration that "everything I've explained about Physics is true" is ridiculous. It is the best demonstration of the Dunning-Kruger effect I have seen. I have a Physics degree, and have spent the time studying the subject to develop an actual expertise in Physics. And yet, I wouldn't even say that.


livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2020 01:38 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

On one side we have LivingLava Physics.
On the other side we have academic Physics.

That's BS. You can't just invent a separate category for everything you don't understand.

Quote:
LivingLava Physics is quite different than academic Physic even on the basics, such as the difference between force and momentum.

You don't understand the things you make claims about. The only thing you could say about why/how propulsion and momentum are related is that they're different. You don't understand how Newton's laws are all about the relationship between active and passive motion.

Quote:
It seems like LivingLava physics is based simply on what seems right to LivingLava. There are no mathematics. There is no room for discussion, he simply declares that "everything I've explained about Physics is true".

Nothing I've said contradicts any math. If you understood the relationship between math and other ways of reasoning, you would know that.

Quote:
Academic Physics has accountability. The mathematics of Physics are checked and have to match up with experiment.

When I said that an object's inertia causes it to resist momentum change, whether it's already in motion or at rest, that is as exact as describing it using equations; and actually more so because when you just write it in equation form, you still have to explain how the equation relates to the empirical system the equation describes.

Quote:
When two people disagree on Physics, they have something called the scientific process... an objective agreed upon way to decide what is true. In real Physics, nothing is simply declared to be "true", it has to be proven.

Then why don't you have to prove it every time to model reality with an equation and perform calculations or do algebra?

Quote:
Yes, we mock LivingLava. I think he deserves it. I don't think we have "demonized" him.

Mocking doesn't do anyone any good. If you think you have a better way to do science, you could benefit people be explaining it. Mocking me or anyone else is a sorry excuse for explaining/teaching. All you do by mocking is intimidate people into avoiding using their minds, instead of encouraging them to do so for the sake of exploring knowledge and critical thought.

Quote:
But his declaration that "everything I've explained about Physics is true" is ridiculous. It is the best demonstration of the Dunning-Kruger effect I have seen. I have a Physics degree, and have spent the time studying the subject to develop an actual expertise in Physics. And yet, I wouldn't even say that.

Yet you haven't given one example of something I've said that's not true and explained why you think it's not. All you have done is claim that things I say are in a different category than things you say are true.

That's not proving anything. All that does it assert that right and wrong are different categories and then presume that what you put in the 'wrong' category is correctly categorized.

The bottom line is you are just a rhetorical wizard who talks about 'proof' etc. but you avoid your own standards by just sitting in the judge's chair and waving your magic wand around ridiculing others.

Why don't you actually explain why you think that something I've said is wrong and allow me to show how your lack of understanding and critical thinking ability is the cause of your belief I'm wrong?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2020 01:43 pm
@livinglava,
In LivingLava Physics (as you have said) the "momentum/inertia" is a form of propulsion.
In LivingLava Physics (as you have said) the inertia "anchors" an object against motion.

In a high school Physics class you learn Newton's second law is F=ma (actually, I think they cover this is middle schoo)l. The "m" here is mass; proportional to inertia. The "F" is propulsion. The "a" is the part that you don't seem to understand.

LivingLava Physics are in direct conflict with academic Physics.

However, this is a thread about the Dunning-Kruger effect.


farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2020 05:40 pm
@livinglava,
Is true, if theres anything of value in LlPhysics we should be told of it. Therefore its your duty to explain and either prove, or evidence your veracity.(or , in most scinces we do both)
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2020 08:47 pm
@farmerman,
Be careful Farmerman.

When you learned Physics, you started from the beginning. You started with Newton's Laws, then you worked through the conservation laws, work energy relation, through Galilean relativity and projectiles, and then to orbits.

Each stage of a Physics education is based on previous stages. And, at each stage students are asked to derive the mathematical functions themselves from what they already know.

Ideally you don't move onto more advanced topics until you have the ability to see they are correct for yourself. Sometimes educators break this rule... teaching Newtonian Mechanics to students who haven't learned basic differential calculus is a problem often encountered in high school. The students have to be told "trust me", this is the mathematics even though many of them won't be able to confirm that they are true for a year or two.

But when you get a Science degree, you develop the mathematical tools to confirm everything for yourself, or at least to know how the functions were derived and how they fit into theory as a whole.

Of course, it is impossible for someone who isn't willing to tackle even high school mathematics to ever reach this point.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2020 09:49 pm
@maxdancona,
and I hadda UNLEARN much physics in applied geophysics(mostly the application and measurement of Newtonian by using Non-Newtonian methods) Like we use duo-differentiated GPS triax data to calculate gravity acceleration. That one always blows me mind. Its like a color blind guy describing red

I remember when gravity was a force, Im that old.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2020 10:12 pm
@farmerman,
I am curious what you mean by "unlearn" physics. I assume that what you are doing is all classical (as in, non-relativistic). Can you explain what "duo-differentiated" GPS is?

My experience with geophysics is indirect at best. ( I have run into geospatial data in my current software career... and an understanding of linear algebra is helpful.. but this is one field I don't know very much about).

 

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