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Government Can Take Your Home if Someone Important Wants It

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2005 09:09 am
Somebody once said that democracy is doomed as soon as politicians discovered they could use the people's money to buy the people's vote. It has become worse with the enormity of the United States government and budget that nobody seems to have the ability or will to track. So, as JWK points out, government increasingly encroaches on everything we are and do and consumes the national resources at a persistently increasing rate with little or nothing of value to show for much of it.

This more than anything else should inspire everybody to encourage and support the president in his conviction to appoint judges who have a heartfelt appreciation and commitment to upholding the principles and intent of the U.S. Constitution. I am not optimistic that partisanship won't continue to try to sidetrack that, but sometimes we as a people really do get it right. There is always hope.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2005 09:28 am
Duh. Deficit eliminated five years ago. Deficit now at ????

Bush has yet to veto a single spending bill or to pare down the porkbarreling because that is not any part of the reason he is there. If it was, he would have.

Republicans have had control of both houses and the presidency during this period of spending going out the roof and the operational size of government increasing (unless you wish to consider that the Pentagon is a private corporation, which isn't far off from the reality).
0 Replies
 
LionTamerX
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2005 10:27 am
He who dies with the most debt wins.
0 Replies
 
john w k
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2005 10:49 am
LionTamerX wrote:
He who dies with the most debt wins.



But not their children!

We are here today and gone tomorrow, but what is most important is what we leave our children, which is what they will remember us by.


JWK
0 Replies
 
john w k
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2005 11:04 am
blatham wrote:
Duh. Deficit eliminated five years ago. Deficit now at ????

Bush has yet to veto a single spending bill or to pare down the porkbarreling because that is not any part of the reason he is there. If it was, he would have.

Republicans have had control of both houses and the presidency during this period of spending going out the roof and the operational size of government increasing (unless you wish to consider that the Pentagon is a private corporation, which isn't far off from the reality).


Funny you, who apparently feels comfortable in laying blame on “Republicans”, when in fact it is Congress Assembled, Republicans and Democrats, from which our present misery springs. Such comments only play into the bread and circus game created by Congress Assembled___ a game which helps to confuse the people as to who their real domestic enemy is.


JWK


The servant has become a master over those who created a servant.[/i]
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2005 11:55 am
Why would Bush cut the pork? He wants to bankrupt the US treasury so he can cut all the social programs like social security. Americans are so stupid, they think social security is the urgent issue while they take their eyes off the real culprit - the national debt.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2005 08:43 am
Related to this thread, I ran across this that may or may not be instructive to some on this thread:

Clarence Thomas as Chief Justice
Memo To: President George W. Bush
Cc: Karl Rove
From: Jude Wanniski
Re: The "Taking Clause" Erased


To be honest, Mr. President, until the Supreme Court on Thursday announced its 5-to-4 decision limiting the property rights of all Americans, I assumed that upon the retirement of Chief Justice Rehnquist you would not name Justice Clarence Thomas to fill that vacancy - and that you would probably be wise to avoid the controversy his nomination would bring.

But after reading Justice Thomas's dissenting opinion in the New London, Conn. case, I think his wisdom, his judgment and his perspective so clearly fits him to be Chief Justice that the American people would not permit the kind of political firestorm that accompanied his appointment to the Court by your father 15 years ago.

Justice Sandra Day O'Connor wrote for the minority and was properly scathing in her criticism of the opinion that government can use its power of eminent domain to foster economic development. But writing separately, Justice Thomas understood that the Court's action in itself is unconstitutional, a "dangerous" act because the American people now have no other recourse to regain control of their property rights except by another amendment to the Constitution.

We thought we had this protection in the Bill of Rights, specifically the "taking clause" of the Fifth Amendment, which clearly states that private property shall not be taken "for public use, without just compensation." At issue in the New London case was the city's expropriation of 15 perfectly good homes to a private developer who planned to make different use of the property -- with the city hoping to get higher tax revenues in the process. The owners refused compensation, wishing to remain in their homes.

In the opening of his dissent, Justice Thomas says:

Long ago, William Blackstone wrote that the law of the land . . . postpone[s] even public necessity to the sacred and inviolable rights of private property. The Framers embodied that principle in the Constitution, allowing the government to take property not for public necessity, but instead for public use. Defying this understanding, the Court replaces the Public Use Clause with a [P]ublic [P]urpose Clause, (or perhaps the Diverse and Always Evolving Needs of Society Clause, a restriction that is satisfied, the Court instructs, so long as the purpose is legitimate and the means not irrational. This deferential shift in phraseology enables the Court to hold, against all common sense, that a costly urban-renewal project whose stated purpose is a vague promise of new jobs and increased tax revenue, but which is also suspiciously agreeable to the Pfizer Corporation, is for a public use. I cannot agree. If such economic development takings are for a public use, any taking is, and the Court has erased the Public Use Clause from our Constitution, as Justice O'Connor powerfully argues in dissent.


In all my years either reporting on the Supreme Court, as a newspaperman, or following its decisions as a political analyst, I've never encountered a decision as brazenly unconstitutional as to be frightening in its implications. My first thought was "this is communism." Except that the government must still provide monetary compensation that another court would ultimately decide, there is nothing different from a communist expropriation of private property with the good intentions of making things better for the "community" at the expense of the landowners. The New York Times, which predictably hailed the decision under a headline, "The Limits of Property Rights," sounded more like Pravda in its conclusion: "New London's development plan may hurt a few small property owners, who will, in any case, be fully compensated. But many more residents are likely to benefit if the city can shore up its tax base and attract badly needed jobs."

In his distinguished years on the Court, Justice Thomas has been regularly derided by black politicians as a "conservative" who has been insensitive to the needs of blacks that could be satisfied by judicial rulings. It is they who have been insensitive as to how he has been protecting their fundamental rights by protecting the Constitution. Here is how he concluded his dissent:

If ever there were justification for intrusive judicial review of constitutional provisions that protect discrete and insular minorities, surely that principle would apply with great force to the powerless groups and individuals the Public Use Clause protects. The deferential standard this Court has adopted for the Public Use Clause is therefore deeply perverse. It encourages those citizens with disproportionate influence and power in the political process, including large corporations and development firms to victimize the weak.

Those incentives have made the legacy of this Courts public purpose test an unhappy one. In the 1950s, no doubt emboldened in part by the expansive understanding of public use this Court adopted in Berman, cities rushed to draw plans for downtown development. Of all the families displaced by urban renewal from 1949 through 1963, 63 percent of those whose race was known were nonwhite, and of these families, 56 percent of nonwhites and 38 percent of whites had incomes low enough to qualify for public housing, which, however, was seldom available to them. Public works projects in the 1950s and 1960s destroyed predominantly minority communities in St. Paul, Minnesota, and Baltimore, Maryland. In 1981, urban planners in Detroit, Michigan, uprooted the largely lower-income and elderly Poletown neighborhood for the benefit of the General Motors Corporation. Urban renewal projects have long been associated with the displacement of blacks; n cities across the country, urban renewal came to be known as Negro removal. Over 97 percent of the individuals forcibly removed from their homes by the slum-clearance project upheld by this Court in Berman were black. Regrettably, the predictable consequence of the Court's decision will be to exacerbate these effects.

Mr. President, if you had already decided against Justice Thomas as I had, please reconsider. There is no one else like him in America. He was born to be Chief Justice at this time of the nation's life
http://wanniski.com/PrintPage.asp?TextID=4444
0 Replies
 
john w k
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2005 01:53 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Somebody once said that democracy is doomed as soon as politicians discovered they could use the people's money to buy the people's vote.


I think the quote you may be referring to is as follows:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

Alleged to have by stated by Alexander Tyler___ The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic 1748-1813

And Madison has warned us with regard to "democracies",[/i] they "...have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths...". [/i]

And during the Convention which framed our federal Constitution, Elbridge Gerry and Roger Sherman, delegates from Massachusetts and Connecticut, urged the Convention to create a system which would eliminate "the evils we experience,"[/i] saying that those "evils . . .flow from the excess of democracy..."\[/i]

And, then there was John Adams, a principle force in the American Revolutionary period who also pointed out "democracy will envy all, contend with all, endeavor to pull down all; and when by chance it happens to get the upper hand for a short time, it will be revengeful, bloody, and cruel..."[/i]

And Samuel Adams, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and favoring the new Constitution as opposed to democracy declared: " Democracy never lasts long” . . . "It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself.". . . "There was never a democracy that ‘did not commit suicide.’"[/i]


And during the Constitutional Convention, Hamilton stated: "We are a Republican Government. Real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of Democracy."

And then there was Benjamin Franklin, who informed a crowd when exiting the Convention as to what system of government they created, he responded by saying "A republic, if you can keep it."[/i]

Democracy, or majority rule vote, as the Founding Fathers well knew, whether practiced by the people or by elected representatives, if not restrained by specific limitations and particular guarantees in which the unalienable rights of mankind are put beyond the reach of political majorities, have proven throughout history to eventually result in nothing less than an unbridled mob rule system susceptible to the wants and passions of a political majority imposing its will upon those who may be outvoted, and would result in the subjugation of unalienable rights, and especially rights associated with property ownership and liberty. And so, our Founding Fathers gave us a constitutionally limited Republican Form of Government, guaranteed by Article 4, Section 4 of the Constitution of the United States.


JWK
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2005 02:58 pm
john w k wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:

JWK:

You claim to be an constitutional expert who runs his own "American Constitutional Research Service." Accordingly, if you have the slightest idea of the things you are talking about, you should be able to read my posts and understand them.


Making things up, again, Debra? Please post my words in which I claimed to be a “constitutional expert“.

Do you understand what the word “research” means as in American Constitutional Research Service?



I need clarification. Are you claiming that you're NOT an expert with respect to the Constitution?

* * *

ex·pert

1 obsolete : EXPERIENCED

2 : having, involving, or displaying special skill or knowledge derived from training or experience

synonym see PROFICIENT

* * *

char·la·tan

1 : QUACK 2

2 : one making usually showy pretenses to knowledge or ability : FRAUD, FAKER

- char·la·tan·ism /-t&-"ni-z&m/ noun
- char·la·tan·ry /-rE/ noun

* * *

jwk wrote:
. . . Fact is, our federal government personifies a living creature, a predator: it grows, it multiplies, it protects itself, it feeds on those it can defeat, and does everything to expand and flourish, even at the expense of enslaving a nation’s entire population with a national debt which exceeds $50 Trillion. Indeed, the servant has become the master over those who have created a servant, and the new servant pays tribute to a gangster government which ignores our most basic law…our constitutions, state and federal.

John William Kurowski, Founder,

American Constitutional Research Service


“He has erected a multitude of new offices , and sent hither swarms of officers, to harass our people, and eat out their substance” ___Declaration of Independence

[Permission is hereby given to reprint this article if credit to its author and the ACRS appears in such reprint. No copyright is claimed for quotes within the article which are public domain materials.]


Source

What are you doing, jwk? Are your facts and conclusions based on having, involving, or displaying special skill or knowledge derived from training or experience? Or did you simply establish yourself as the "founder" of a made-up service in order to lend credibility to your opinions where none exists? When you sign your posts and articles with your name, your title, and the organization that you represent (or made up to lend credibility to your words when none exists), are you portraying yourself as an expert or are you putting on a showy pretense to your knowledge or ability?

jwk wrote:
Fact is the SCOTUS has become America’s public enemy number one and acts in the interests of the rich and powerful.

. . .

JWK
ACRS


The above is another example of you portraying yourself as an expert or "something" on the facts that you set forth and the conclusions you reach based on the facts as you present them . . . it appears that you are portraying yourself as an authoritative, knowledgeable, skilled voice on the subject matter bolstered by your signature and credentials. But, appearances can be deceiving. Hmmmmm.

Okay. Is this a loophole? "I never claimed to be an expert . . . post my words where I claimed to be an expert."

I'm trying to figure out your expert/nonexpert stance. Let's see: You are a prolific writer on constitutional interpretation and construction; you state authoritative opinions based on your knowledge or skill developed through your research; even so, you do not "openly" hold yourself out as someone with special knowledge or skill with respect to the subject matter by specifically claiming to be an expert; and if any of us are mislead by your self-proclaimed credentials as the Founder of the American Constitutional Research Service . . . that doesn't mean that you're either an expert or a charlatan . . . that simply means that the rest of us don't know the meaning of the word "research."

Rolling Eyes

Now I'm confused about the true meaning of the word "service" with respect to the service for which you are the founder. To whom do you offer your NON-expert American constitutional research services? Do you have clients that solicit your non-expert services to conduct non-expert research services?

Perhaps the rest of us wouldn't be confused or mislead about your non-expert services if you could explain the ACRS for which you are the founder. Is it a bona fide service offered to the public or an illusory service that offers services to no one but simply exists to serve YOU and lend credibility to your opinions and articles? Do you have a website?

But, just so I'm not intentionally or unintentionally misled in the future, I would appreciate clarification. You are NOT an expert on the constitution? What is the purpose of placing "ACRS" after your initials? A small explanation would be in order so we don't jump to conlcusions and start falsely believing you're an expert . . . just so we know how to properly construe the representation for future reference.







Debra_Law wrote:


Either you're evading or avoiding or you truly don't understand. If it's the former, I'm tired of your hypocritical game. If it's the latter, you truly need to reevaluate the merits of presenting yourself as a constitutional expert.


jwk wrote:
And where have I presented myself as a “constitutional expert”, Debra? Please post my words to support your claim.


Rolling Eyes


Debra_Law wrote:


hy·poc·ri·sy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (h-pkr-s)
n. pl. hy·poc·ri·sies

1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.

2. An act or instance of such falseness.

* * * *


Here are your professed beliefs:

PROFESSED BELIEF No. 1: The Bill of Rights (including the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment) applies to FEDERAL ACTION ONLY. The Takings Clause does not apply to STATE ACTION.



JWK, FOUNDER, ACRS wrote:
The Bill of Rights contained in our federal Constitution was adopted with the intent of limiting the actions of Congress and the federal government



That was certainly true when the Bill of Rights was ratified in 1791. I posted the Supreme Court decision that set forth the original intent of the Fifth Amendment:

Barron v. Mayor & City Council of Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243 (1833)

Accordingly, in 1833 (do the math: 172 years ago), the fifth amendment was understood as restraining the power of the General (federal)Government; it was not applicable to the States. Therefore, the Supreme Court acknowledged that it did not have subject matter jurisdiction and dismissed this eminent domain case.

BUT . . . the Barron case was decided long before the passage and ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868.





Debra_Law wrote:

Here are your professed beliefs:
PROFESSED BELIEF No. 2: The Fourteenth Amendment applies to STATE ACTION, but only when a state seeks to regulate on the basis of race, color, or former condition of slavery.


JWK, FOUNDER, ACRS wrote:
The Fourteenth Amendment was adopted to prohibit legislation based upon race, color or former condition of slavery and secure the same civil rights [not political rights] as enjoyed by whites. It was intended to carry into effect the first Civil Rights Act and give it the force of constitutional authority.



Read the Fourteenth Amendment:

"Section 1: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. . . .

Section 5: The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."


This post-civil war amendment certainly was intended to benefit newly-freed slaves, but newly-freed slaves and other black persons were not the exclusive beneficiaries of the sweeping protections of the Fourteenth Amendment. The framers and ratifiers did not expressly limit the application of the amendment only to those situations where the state seeks to regulate on the basis of race, color or former condition of slavery.




Debra_Law wrote:

Here are your professed beliefs:
PROFESSED BELIEF No. 3: Your first two "professed beliefs" are based on your construction of the Constitution which in turn is based on what you believe was the original intent of the framers and ratifiers of the Bill of Rights and Fourteenth Amendment.


JWK, FOUNDER, ACRS wrote:
My first two beliefs as stated are not based upon my construction of the Constitution, but rather, are based upon, and in accordance with, the most fundamental principle of constitutional law ___ to carry out the intent of the constitution as contemplated by those who framed it and the people who adopted it.


The irony of your position is the framers and ratifiers never intended that their varied and indeterminate intentions would be controlling. If you take all the framers and ratifiers of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Fourteenth Amendment and resurrected them from their graves and asked them what their intentions were when they proposed the amendment or ratified the proposed amendment, you would get thousands of different responses. So . . . whose intentions would be controlling? Among all those who would express their intent, how would we pick and choose?

It is significant that the Framers decided on the last day of the Convention (September 17, 1787) not to publish any record of their deliberations. They decided instead to entrust all papers to Convention President George Washington. Throughout the summer too there was a strict code of secrecy, a "gag" rule on all those in attendance. No one was to mention a word about the proceedings to anyone outside the Convention. If we expect arguments about Framers' intent to bring the meaning of the Constitution more explicitly to light, the Framers themselves were certainly quite resourceful in making it very difficult, if not impossible, for us to recover their intentions. James Madison, who kept the most extensive notes during the course of the Convention, also refused to publish his journal until after his death:

"or, at least, . . . till the Constitution should be well settled by practice, and till a knowledge of the controversial part of the proceedings of its framers could be turned to no improper account . . . . As a guide in expounding and applying the provisions of the Constitution, the debates and incidental decisions of the Convention can have no authoritative character."

We have direct evidence that the Framers themselves tried to block access to their deliberations in part because they did not wish their original intent to play an "authoritative" role in subsequent efforts to interpret the meaning of the text.

SOURCE


All framers and ratifiers understood the framework of our government and understood that the words of the Constitution and the Amendments would be interpreted and construed on a case-by-case basis by the Courts with the ultimate authority for interpreting and construing left in the hands of the United States Supreme Court.

This has already been pointed out to you on a previous thread:

Source

kuvasz wrote:
. . . The intents of the workings of the Constitution were open to interpretation from the very beginning. Hamilton stated that clear enough.

From Federalist Paper Number 78.

Quote:

"The interpretation of the laws is the proper and peculiar province of the courts. A constitution is, in fact, and must be regarded by the judges, as a fundamental law. It therefore belongs to them to ascertain its meaning, as well as the meaning of any particular act proceeding from the legislative body"





Your position that the Constitution is limited by the framers' and ratifiers' intent belies the intent of the framers and ratifiers themselves. In turn, your position that the Fourteenth Amendment is limited again by the intent of the framers and ratifiers is simply begging the question because we don't know whose intent would be controlling. In turn, your position that the protections of the Fourteenth Amendment are limited to cases where the state regulates on the basis of race, color, or former condition of slavery is not supported by the explicit language of the Fourteenth Amendment itself.

And, at this point, I will again point out an example of your hypocrisy -- defined as an act or instance of FALSENESS in the application of your professed beliefs.

During the course of the Schiavo controversy, you advocated that the State of Florida was in violation of Terri Schiavo's right to life protected by the Fourteenth Amendment. You wrote extensively on the subject and posted all over the internet your professed belief that Terry Schiavo was denied the protections of the Fourteenth Amendment, see, e.g.:


JWK, FOUNDER, ACRS wrote:
Terri Schiavo: Due Process Denied?

By AMERICAN CONSTITUTIONAL RESEARCH SERVICE

. . .

Bottom line

Terri has been denied due process of law, and there is substantial cause for her case to be reviewed under a 14th amendment appeal as outlined above.


Source:
http://www.jeffersonreview.com/articles/2005/032105/terri.htm


Well? I thought you professed a belief that the Fourteenth Amendment did NOT apply to state action unless the state was depriving an individual of life, liberty, or property on the basis of race, color, or former condition of slavery. Now I'm confused . . . the courts in the State of Florida did not order the removal of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube on the basis of her race, color, or former condition of slavery.

Accordingly, if we give the Fourteenth Amendment the narrow construction that you demand in accordance with your professed beliefs concerning the framers' and ratifiers' intent, then you have no gripe against the Florida courts the same as you have no gripe against the Supreme Court in the Kelo case . . . because, according to you, the Fourteenth Amendment does not apply to vest federal courts with authority/jurisdiction to review the constitutionality of state action except in very limited circumstances.

Your application of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Schiavo case demonstrates another act or instance of FALSENESS in your professed beliefs . . . hence, hypocrisy as defined above.


Debra_Law wrote:

Here are your professed beliefs:
PROFESSED BELIEF No. 4: Whenever the United States Supreme Court applies any of the protections in the Bill of Rights to STATE ACTION (via the Fourteenth Amendment), the Supreme Court is subverting the Constitution, betraying Federalism, committing an act of Tyranny, and becomes a PUBLIC ENEMY.


JWK, FOUNDER, ACRS wrote:
Whenever the SCOTUS renders a decision contrary to the intent of the Constitution as contemplated by those who framed it and the people who adopted it, the Court is subjugating the will of the people and imposing its own whims and fancies as being the law of the land.



The Supreme Court has interpreted the Fourteenth Amendment to incorporate some of the protections of the Bill of Rights into the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment and has made those protections enforceable against the States.

It is your position that the framers and ratifiers of the Fourteenth Amendment NEVER intended the "takings clause" of the Fifth Amendment to be incorporated into the Fourteenth Amendment and made enforceable against the States EXCEPT when the State takes property on the basis of race, color, or former condition of slavery.

And yet you betray your professed beliefs by claiming the Supreme Court failed to properly apply the Fifth Amendment to protect an individual against an unconstitutional taking. If the Supreme Court didn't have authority or jurisdiction to hear the case in the first place to apply the Fifth Amendment to protect an individual against state action, how can you criticize the Court for failing to rule in favor of the individual?

If you are true to your professed beliefs, then it is also your position that the framers and ratifiers of the Fourteenth Amendment NEVER intended the fundamental to the jury trial guaranteed by the Sixth Amendment to be incorporated into the Fourteenth Amendment and made enforceable agains the States EXCEPT when the State seeks to deprive an individual of a jury trial on the basis of race, color, or former condition of slavery.

And yet you betray your professed beliefs by claiming the State of Florida deprived Terri Schiavo of her right to jury trial and you cite TAYLOR v. LOUISIANA, 419 U.S. 522 (1975) as authority.

http://laws.findlaw.com/us/419/522.html

Well . . . just a minute. The defendant in Taylor v. Louisiana is complaining because the State disproportionately excluded women from jury service.

The Supreme Court wrote:
The Louisiana jury-selection system does not disqualify women from jury service, but in operation its conceded systematic impact is that only a very few women, grossly disproportionate to the number of eligible women in the community, are called for jury service. In this case, no women were on the venire from which the petit jury was drawn. The issue we have, therefore, is whether a jury-selection system which operates to exclude from jury service an identifiable class of citizens constituting 53% [419 U.S. 522, 526] of eligible jurors in the community comports with the Sixth and Fourteenth Amendments.

The State first insists that Taylor, a male, has no standing to object to the exclusion of women from his jury. But Taylor's claim is that he was constitutionally entitled to a jury drawn from a venire constituting a fair cross section of the community and that the jury that tried him was not such a jury by reason of the exclusion of women. Taylor was not a member of the excluded class; but there is no rule that claims such as Taylor presents may be made only by those defendants who are members of the group excluded from jury service. In Peters v. Kiff, 407 U.S. 493 (1972), the defendant, a white man, challenged his conviction on the ground that Negroes had been systematically excluded from jury service. Six Members of the Court agreed that petitioner was entitled to present the issue and concluded that he had been deprived of his federal rights. Taylor, in the case before us, was similarly entitled to tender and have adjudicated the claim that the exclusion of women from jury service deprived him of the kind of factfinder to which he was constitutionally entitled.



Just a minute . . . why are you relying on this gender-based case to support Terri Schiavo's Fourteenth Amendment right to jury by trial? You are on record as stating the following:

JWK, FOUNDER, ACRS wrote:




Debra_Law wrote:
The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment forbids the STATE from depriving persons of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. (Despite JWK's professed beliefs, the Fourteenth Amendment is not limited in its application to STATE regulation on the basis of race, color, or former condition of slavery.)



Seems to me there is a mountain of evidence available to establish the intent of those who framed and ratified the 14th Amendment was to prohibit legislation based upon race, color or former condition of slavery and secure to blacks the same civil rights [not political rights] as enjoyed by whites. It was intended to carry into effect the first Civil Rights Act and give it the force of constitutional authority.

If you have documentation to the contrary, please feel free to post it. But, a research of the House and Senate debates which framed both the 1st Civil Rights Act and the 14th Amendment, which was intended to incorporate the objectives of the Civil Rights Act into the Constitution --- thereby making the first Civil Rights Act constitutional --- does not support the claim that those who framed and ratified it intended it to apply in a very broad manner so as to prohibit state legislation making distinctions beyond race color or previous condition of slavery!

As a matter of fact, there is an abundance of documented evidence the amendment was specifically intended to apply in a very narrow area…to prohibit state authorized discrimination, unequal law, based upon “race, color, or previous condition of slavery…”

As Rep. Shallabarger, a primary supporter of the Fourteenth Amendment stated when it was being debated:

“Its whole effect is not to confer or regulate rights, but to require that whatever of these enumerated rights and obligations are imposed by State laws shall be for and upon all citizens alike without distinctions based on race or former condition of slavery..It permits the States to say that the wife may not testify, sue or contract. It makes no law as to this. Its whole effect is to require that whatever rights as to each of the enumerated civil (not political) matters the States may confer upon one race or color of the citizens shall be held by all races in equality…It does not prohibit you from discriminating between citizens of the same race, or of different races, as to what their rights to testify, to inherit &c. shall be. But if you do discriminate, it must not be on account of race, color or former conditions of slavery. That is all. If you permit a white man who is an infidel to testify, so you must a colored infidel. Self-evidently this is the whole effect of this first section. It secures-not to all citizens, but to all races as races who are citizens- equality of protection in those enumerated civil rights which the States may deem proper to confer upon any race.” Rep. Shallabarger, Congressional Globe, 1866, page 1293

The argument that the wording in the 14th Amendment: (a)“all persons”, (b)"No State shall make any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of United States.", (c) "[N]or deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws", as being evidence the 14th Amendment was intended to be a universal rule to bar every imaginable type of discrimination, including discrimination based upon sex, physical disabilities, or the current shopping list which is today claimed, falls flat on its face when reading the words of next Amendment to the Constitution! This Amendment (the 15th) prohibits a new type of discrimination which is prima facie evidence the Fourteenth Amendment is not a universal rule to bar every imaginable type of discrimination. The Fifteenth Amendment prohibits discrimination at the voting booth on account of “race, color, or previous condition of servitude.” The intent of the 15th Amendment was unmistakably adopted to enlarge the prohibition on state sponsored discrimination mentioned in the 14th, and extend it to include a new subject matter, but only to the extent that the prohibited discrimination is based upon “race, color or previous condition of servitude”…the People not yet willing to provide the same federally enforceable guarantee to the female gender!

The assertion that the 14th Amendment prohibits a wide variety of discrimination such as discrimination based upon sex, [see Justice Ginsburg’s opinion in the VMI Case], is totally refuted when reading the 19th Amendment which was adopted by the people to specifically forbid yet a new kind of discrimination, discrimination at the voting both based upon sex. Why adopt the 19th Amendment forbidding the right to vote to be “denied or abridged” on account of “SEX.” if the Fourteenth Amendment already prohibited sex discrimination as claimed by Justice Ginsburg?

And finally, why would there have been a proposed so-call “equal rights amendment” offered in the 1980’s for adoption to the Constitution of the United States authorizing Congress to prohibit sex discrimination by appropriate legislation [which was voted down by the People] if the 14th amendment already granted such power to Congress, or such a prohibition already existed in the federal constitution?


The truth is, members of our Supreme Court are subjugating our constitutional system and supplanting their personal whims and fancies as being within the legislative intent of our Constitution as contemplated by those who framed it and the people who adopted it--- such action being a blatant rebellion against our Constitution system and meeting the definition of tyranny!


OKAY . . . well . . . according to YOUR professed beliefs . . . the Supreme Court betrayed the framers' and ratifiers' intent with respect to the Fourteenth Amendment and subjugated our constitutional system by applying the Sixth Amendment right to jury trial via the Fourteenth Amendment to state action when the state merely kept women off the jury system and did not discriminate on the basis of race, color, or former condition of slavery.

But, you use a case that belies your professed beliefs to substantiate your criticism of another case that also belies your professed beliefs. This is an instance of FALSENESS on top of an instance of FALSNESS on top of an Instance of FALSENESS.

The layers to your hypocrisy are multi-faceted and mind-boggling.




Debra_Law wrote:


Here are your professed beliefs:
PROFESSED BELIEF No. 5: FEDERALISM. Unless given explicit authority under the Constitution through one of its delegated, enumerated powers, the federal government is required to keep its nose out of STATE business. In other words, you are a proponent of STATES' RIGHTS.



JWK, FOUNDER, ACRS wrote:
STATES' RIGHTS? You confuse my being a proponent of the People’s Rights as they have established them by our constitutions, state and federal.


I am so confused, JWK.

How can you proclaim to be a proponent of individual or people rights "as they have established them by our constitutions, state and federal" when you deny that the people have any rights protected by the federal constitution enforceable against the states via the Fourteenth Amendment in cases unrelated to race, color, or former condition of slavery?

Your rigid, unbending stance on the Fourteenth Amendment belies your current criticism of the federal court system.

See:

Debra_Law wrote:

NOW. Given your professed beliefs, the Supreme Court did not have authority to apply the takings clause of the Fifth Amendment to STATE ACTION in the Kelo case via the Fourteenth Amendment.


JWK, FOUNDER, ACRS wrote:
I would agree with that.




Debra_Law wrote:

ALSO. Given your professed beliefs, the issue of "public use" with respect to STATE ACTION is a STATES' RIGHTS issue.


JWK, FOUNDER, ACRS wrote:
No! It’s a state constitutional issue.


The Connecticut Supreme Court ruled that taking at issue did not violate the state constitution. The United States Supreme Court does not have authority to reverse the Connecticut Supreme Court's interpretation of its own state constitution.

You are critcizing the U.S. Supreme Court for failing to do what it has no right to do under our system of federalism. And, you purport to be an advocate of federalism. Rolling Eyes

See:

Debra_Law wrote:


ALSO. Given your professed beliefs, the people in the State of Connecticut cannot rely on the takings clause of the Fifth Amendment to provide federal constitutional protection against STATE takings cases; they cannot rely on the federal government via the U.S. Supreme Court to grant them protection they are not entitled to have in our system of federalism, and the people of the State of Connecticut must look to their own democratic political processes of their own state to limit their own state's power of eminent domain.


JWK, FOUNDER, ACRS wrote:
Exactly so!


Shocked

Okay . . . then where's your beef with the United States Supreme Court?


Debra_Law wrote:

ALSO. Given your professed beliefs, you should be thrilled that the United States Supreme Court ruled in favor of the STATE because, AGAIN, according to your professed beliefs, the federal courts did not have jurisdiction to hear this particular grievance and the people's remedy, if any, lies with their own state government.



JWK, FOUNDER, ACRS wrote:
No Debra. I am not thrilled “…that the United States Supreme Court ruled in favor of the STATE “. The truth is, the Court ruled in favor of state public servants, agreeing they have authority to take the property of one and sell it to another for a profit making venture, and it did so without jurisdiction in the matter. The Court unduly and without constitutional authority, lent its position of authority in the case and sided with one of the litigants in the case.


Your arguments are mind-boggling. If the Fifth Amendment via the Fourteenth Amendment does not apply to state action as you profess, then the U.S. Supreme Court had no authority to overturn a ruling of a state's highest court and grant relief to the individuals involved.

It appears your true beef is with the Connecticut Supreme Court that ruled that the state public servants acted in accordance with STATE law and did not violate the STATE constitution.

The remedy of the people, therefore, lies within the political processes of their own state. The litigants in the Kelo case are no worse off by the Supreme Court decision, because (according to you) they had no right protected by the federal constitution in the first place, and all of their state remedies still exist.


Debra_Law wrote:

HOWEVER, DESPITE YOUR PROFESSED BELIEFS, you criticize the Supreme Court for its failure (in you eyes) to properly apply the FEDERAL "public use" doctrine to protect people against the harmful actions of their STATE government.


JWK, FOUNDER, ACRS wrote:
No Debra. You are making things up again.

I did not “criticize the Supreme Court for its failure . . . to properly apply the FEDERAL "public use" doctrine to protect people against the harmful actions of their STATE government.” I criticized the Court for interfering in a case in which there was no federal question and using it position of authority to improperly side with one of the litigants in the case.



Rolling Eyes


Where do you state your "no federal question" criticism in any of your previous posts? Are we supposed to be mind-readers? In your previous posts criticizing the Supreme Court, you merely recite the dissent opinions with respect to the Supreme Court's application of the Fifth Amendments' "public use" clause.

See:

JWK wrote:
If you think certain members of the SCOTUS are not Americas most formidable domestic enemies and assisting in the subjugation of our laws, and that a number of its members are not using their office of public trust to advance the fortunes of the rich and powerful, I suggest you study the dissenting opinion: KELO et al. v. CITY OF NEW LONDON et al.


Justice O'Connor sums up the tyranny of the majority in the following words:

Today the Court abandons this long-held, basic limitation on government power. Under the banner of economic development, all private property is now vulnerable to being taken and transferred to another private owner, so long as it might be upgraded--i.e., given to an owner who will use it in a way that the legislature deems more beneficial to the public--in the process. To reason, as the Court does, that the incidental public benefits resulting from the subsequent ordinary use of private property render economic development takings "for public use" is to wash out any distinction between private and public use of property--and thereby effectively to delete the words "for public use" from the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment. Accordingly I respectfully dissent.

Also see the dissenting opinion of Justice Thomas:
Long ago, William Blackstone wrote that "the law of the land ... postpone[s] even public necessity to the sacred and inviolable rights of private property." 1 Commentaries on the Laws of England 134-135 (1765) (hereinafter Blackstone). The Framers embodied that principle in the Constitution, allowing the government to take property not for "public necessity," but instead for "public use." Amdt. 5. Defying this understanding, the Court replaces the Public Use Clause with a " '[P]ublic [P]urpose' " Clause, ante, at 9-10 (or perhaps the "Diverse and Always Evolving Needs of Society" Clause, ante, at 8 (capitalization added)), a restriction that is satisfied, the Court instructs, so long as the purpose is "legitimate" and the means "not irrational," ante, at 17 (internal quotation marks omitted). This deferential shift in phraseology enables the Court to hold, against all common sense, that a costly urban-renewal project whose stated purpose is a vague promise of new jobs and increased tax revenue, but which is also suspiciously agreeable to the Pfizer Corporation, is for a "public use."

I cannot agree. If such "economic development" takings are for a "public use," any taking is, and the Court has erased the Public Use Clause from our Constitution, as Justice O'Connor powerfully argues in dissent. Ante, at 1-2, 8-13. I do not believe that this Court can eliminate liberties expressly enumerated in the Constitution and therefore join her dissenting opinion. Regrettably, however, the Court's error runs deeper than this. Today's decision is simply the latest in a string of our cases construing the Public Use Clause to be a virtual nullity, without the slightest nod to its original meaning. In my view, the Public Use Clause, originally understood, is a meaningful limit on the government's eminent domain power. Our cases have strayed from the Clause's original meaning, and I would reconsider them.


JWK
ACRS


The servant has become the master over those who created a servant.


source

and see:

America's public enemy No. One: The SCOTUS!

JWK, FOUNDER, ACRS wrote:
If you think the SCOTUS is not Americas most formidable domestic enemy, and that a number of its members are not using their office of public trust to advance the fortunes of the rich and powerful, I suggest you study the following opinion: KELO et al. v. CITY OF NEW LONDON et al.


Justice O'Connor sums up the tyranny of the majority in the following words:


Today the Court abandons this long-held, basic limitation on government power. Under the banner of economic development, all private property is now vulnerable to being taken and transferred to another private owner, so long as it might be upgraded--i.e., given to an owner who will use it in a way that the legislature deems more beneficial to the public--in the process. To reason, as the Court does, that the incidental public benefits resulting from the subsequent ordinary use of private property render economic development takings "for public use" is to wash out any distinction between private and public use of property--and thereby effectively to delete the words "for public use" from the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment. Accordingly I respectfully dissent.

Also see the dissenting opinion of Justice Thomas:

Long ago, William Blackstone wrote that "the law of the land ... postpone[s] even public necessity to the sacred and inviolable rights of private property." 1 Commentaries on the Laws of England 134-135 (1765) (hereinafter Blackstone). The Framers embodied that principle in the Constitution, allowing the government to take property not for "public necessity," but instead for "public use." Amdt. 5. Defying this understanding, the Court replaces the Public Use Clause with a " '[P]ublic [P]urpose' " Clause, ante, at 9-10 (or perhaps the "Diverse and Always Evolving Needs of Society" Clause, ante, at 8 (capitalization added)), a restriction that is satisfied, the Court instructs, so long as the purpose is "legitimate" and the means "not irrational," ante, at 17 (internal quotation marks omitted). This deferential shift in phraseology enables the Court to hold, against all common sense, that a costly urban-renewal project whose stated purpose is a vague promise of new jobs and increased tax revenue, but which is also suspiciously agreeable to the Pfizer Corporation, is for a "public use."

I cannot agree. If such "economic development" takings are for a "public use," any taking is, and the Court has erased the Public Use Clause from our Constitution, as Justice O'Connor powerfully argues in dissent. Ante, at 1-2, 8-13. I do not believe that this Court can eliminate liberties expressly enumerated in the Constitution and therefore join her dissenting opinion. Regrettably, however, the Court's error runs deeper than this. Today's decision is simply the latest in a string of our cases construing the Public Use Clause to be a virtual nullity, without the slightest nod to its original meaning. In my view, the Public Use Clause, originally understood, is a meaningful limit on the government's eminent domain power. Our cases have strayed from the Clause's original meaning, and I would reconsider them.


JWK
ACRS

The servant has become the master over those who created a servant.


Where, in your previous posts and quotations of the dissenting opinions, do you set forth your criticism of "no federal question?"


Debra_Law wrote:

CONCLUSION: Your current criticism of the United States Supreme Court demonstrates an instance of FALSENESS in the application of your professed beliefs . . . hence: HYPOCRISY. (See definition of HYPOCRISY posted above.)



Quote:
You still have offered nothing to substantiate your charge of hypocrisy leveled at me, nor presented any statement made by me showing that I have been inconsistent in my position concerning the 14th Amendment. In essences, you have level an unsubstantiated personal attack upon my character which violates the rules of this forum.

Please post a link to your post in which you set forth my “inconsistent construction and application of the Fourteenth Amendment. “

And just what is my current criticism in the case being discussed in this thread? Please post my words and explain how it is hypocritical and inconsistent with what I have posted in the past as you have charged.

I’m waiting, Debra, for you to support your charges which have called my character into question.


JWK



I have substantiated your inconsistencies over and over and over and over and over again. Uff-dah.

Case closed.
0 Replies
 
john w k
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jul, 2005 01:50 am
Debra_Law wrote:
I need clarification. Are you claiming that you're NOT an expert with respect to the Constitution?


But Debra, it was you who stated that I claimed to be a constitutional expert, when in fact I never made such a claim. Perhaps you ought to look within yourself for your clarification, especially as to your propensity for pretending about what another has stated. Remember, it was you who made the claim about “expert”, not me. But I see you have decided to once again misdirect the subject matter into an inquiry concerning my background, which seems more important to you than supporting your opinions concerning constitutional issues.

Debra_Law wrote:

JWK, FOUNDER, ACRS wrote: “The Bill of Rights contained in our federal Constitution was adopted with the intent of limiting the actions of Congress and the federal government”


That was certainly true when the Bill of Rights was ratified in 1791. I posted the Supreme Court decision that set forth the original intent of the Fifth Amendment:

Barron v. Mayor & City Council of Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243 (1833)

Accordingly, in 1833 (do the math: 172 years ago), the fifth amendment was understood as restraining the power of the General (federal)Government; it was not applicable to the States. Therefore, the Supreme Court acknowledged that it did not have subject matter jurisdiction and dismissed this eminent domain case.

BUT . . . the Barron case was decided long before the passage and ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868. . . .

This post-civil war amendment certainly was intended to benefit newly-freed slaves, but newly-freed slaves and other black persons were not the exclusive beneficiaries of the sweeping protections of the Fourteenth Amendment. The framers and ratifiers did not expressly limit the application of the amendment only to those situations where the state seeks to regulate on the basis of race, color or former condition of slavery.


If you took the time to study the Congressional Globe, 39th Congress 1st session, Debra, you would find a preponderance of evidence establishing the narrowly intended scope of the amendment, which was nothing more than to incorporate the protections of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 into the Constitution and give it the force of constitutional authority. I would suggest you also study the Civil Rights Cases, 102 U.S. 3, 22. 1883 and Georgia v. Rachel 384 U.S. 780 1966, which confirm the preponderance of evidence as it appears in the 39th Congressional Globe, that the 14th Amendment was intended to cover the same ground as the Civil Right Act., which was intended to insure to blacks the same fundamental civil rights which whites enjoyed e.g., the right to make and enforce contracts, to sue, to inherit and purchase property, etc.

As Rep. Shallabarger, a primary supporter of the Fourteenth Amendment stated when it was being debated:

“Its whole effect is not to confer or regulate rights, but to require that whatever of these enumerated rights and obligations are imposed by State laws shall be for and upon all citizens alike without distinctions based on race or former condition of slavery..It permits the States to say that the wife may not testify, sue or contract. It makes no law as to this. Its whole effect is to require that whatever rights as to each of the enumerated civil (not political) matters the States may confer upon one race or color of the citizens shall be held by all races in equality…It does not prohibit you from discriminating between citizens of the same race, or of different races, as to what their rights to testify, to inherit &c. shall be. But if you do discriminate, it must not be on account of race, color or former conditions of slavery. That is all. If you permit a white man who is an infidel to testify, so you must a colored infidel. Self-evidently this is the whole effect of this first section. It secures-not to all citizens, but to all races as races who are citizens- equality of protection in those enumerated civil rights which the States may deem proper to confer upon any race.”[/i]
See: Rep. Shallabarger, Congressional Globe, 1866, page 1293


Debra_Law wrote:
The irony of your position is the framers and ratifiers never intended that their varied and indeterminate intentions would be controlling. If you take all the framers and ratifiers of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Fourteenth Amendment and resurrected them from their graves and asked them what their intentions were when they proposed the amendment or ratified the proposed amendment, you would get thousands of different responses. So . . . whose intentions would be controlling? Among all those who would express their intent, how would we pick and choose?


We would arrive at an opinion based upon a preponderance of recorded evidence as to the intent of the amendment, Debra, part of which is found in the Congressional Globe, 39th Congress.

Debra_Law wrote:

Read the Fourteenth Amendment:

"Section 1: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. . . .


I have read the Amendment and also read what originally came out of the select joint committee and was promoted by Bingham as H.R. 63, part of which reads:


“The Congress shall have power to make all laws which shall be necessary and proper to secure to the citizens of each State all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States, and to all persons in the several States equal protection in the rights of life, liberty, and property.”[/i]

As you can see, Debra, there is a very big difference in the wording of H.R. 63 and what eventually was added to our Constitution. The changes in the wording did not happen by accident. There were specific reasons for changing the wording, the primary reason being, the original wording would have, if adopted, authorized the sweeping power which you assert is there. But such power was intentionally denied to Congress by changes in the wording to preclude such a sweeping power being granted to Congress. Many of those who debated the wording of H.R. 63 [for example see last column on the page asserted such wording [H.R. 63] would all but dissolved the legitimate functions of the states and consolidate enormous power into the hands of Congress, and fundamentally change our system of government.

In any event, Debra, I get the distinct impression from what you have written and your attitude toward others, that you are not interested in a productive discussion concerning constitutional law. You are more interested in misdirecting the subject matter when confronted with facts which challenge your statements; you are more interested in making glib and disrespectful remarks to those you disagree with, and now you have shown a fixation which dwells and speculates upon my background. But I can assure you Debra, regardless of what my background is, or what special skills I may or may not have, such attributes play no part in the meaning of our Constitution, or the intent with which the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted.

Debra_Law wrote:

I have substantiated your inconsistencies over and over and over and over and over again. Uff-dah.

Case closed.


As I correctly told you before, that making the above assertion does not support your claim. To support your claim you must provide at least two passages which I wrote and establish an inconsistency.

John w k wrote:

Bottom line

Terri has been denied due process of law, and there is substantial cause for her case to be reviewed under a 14th amendment appeal as outlined above.


Debra_Law wrote:
Well? I thought you professed a belief that the Fourteenth Amendment did NOT apply to state action unless the state was depriving an individual of life, liberty, or property on the basis of race, color, or former condition of slavery. Now I'm confused . . . the courts in the State of Florida did not order the removal of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube on the basis of her race, color, or former condition of slavery.

Accordingly, if we give the Fourteenth Amendment the narrow construction that you demand in accordance with your professed beliefs concerning the framers' and ratifiers' intent, then you have no gripe against the Florida courts the same as you have no gripe against the Supreme Court in the Kelo case . . . because, according to you, the Fourteenth Amendment does not apply to vest federal courts with authority/jurisdiction to review the constitutionality of state action except in very limited circumstances.

Your application of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Schiavo case demonstrates another act or instance of FALSENESS in your professed beliefs . . . hence, hypocrisy as defined above.


Well, Debra, to clear up your confusion, Terri was in fact not afforded the due process guaranteed under Florida’s Constitution and its laws as I documented in the article you referenced. As to my statement in the same article that “there is substantial cause for her case to be reviewed under a 14th amendment appeal as outlined above”, the statement applied to what the Courts consider grounds for appeal under the 14th Amendment, which does not necessarily mean I agree with the courts on such grounds. My point in the article was to establish the hypocrisy of the federal courts___ that common criminals receive the protection of a jury as a 14th Amendment due process right, but when it came to Terri, the courts ignored such an alleged 14th Amendment right, and likewise ignored the right to her being represented in court by an independent legal counsel..

No Debra! Your example does not show hypocrisy on my part. But I hope you have learned some fundamental principles of constitutional law by searching out my writings and reading them in your attempt to find ammunition for your personal attack upon me.


Debra_Law wrote:
The Connecticut Supreme Court ruled that taking at issue did not violate the state constitution. The United States Supreme Court does not have authority to reverse the Connecticut Supreme Court's interpretation of its own state constitution.

You are critcizing the U.S. Supreme Court for failing to do what it has no right to do under our system of federalism. And, you purport to be an advocate of federalism

Okay . . . then where's your beef with the United States Supreme Court?

Where, in your previous posts and quotations of the dissenting opinions, do you set forth your criticism of "no federal question?"

Where do you state your "no federal question" criticism in any of your previous posts? Are we supposed to be mind-readers? In your previous posts criticizing the Supreme Court, you merely recite the dissent opinions with respect to the Supreme Court's application of the Fifth Amendments' "public use" clause.



Now your being disingenuous Debra as I have covered this ground with you before, for example in a previous message I wrote: Ah! You are finally beginning to wake up! The fact is, as the case was presented, there was no federal question, but, the SCOTUS decided to not only take the case, but the majority opinion used its position of power to side with one of the litigants!


And, in another post I stated:


No Debra. I am not thrilled “…that the United States Supreme Court ruled in favor of the STATE “. The truth is, the Court ruled in favor of state public servants, agreeing they have authority to take the property of one and sell it to another for a profit making venture, and it did so without jurisdiction in the matter. The Court unduly and without constitutional authority, lent its position of authority in the case and sided with one of the litigants in the case.

So, as it turns out, your most recent suggestion of my not stating there was no federal question involved, turns out to be another erroneous claim.


JWK

The truth cannot be changed to what it is not.[/i]
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jul, 2005 05:11 am
Here is another opinion that seems to side with JWK's position on this one. Professor Epstein beautifully lays out the policy of using bad precedents to make bad decisions. It sort of ties in with my signature line: "Thousands of ethicists and bioethicists, as they are called, professionally guide the unthinkable on its passage through the debatable on its way to becoming the justifiable, until it is finally established as the unexceptional."--Neuhaus


Blind Justices
The scandal of Kelo v. New London.

BY RICHARD A. EPSTEIN
Sunday, July 3, 2005 12:01 a.m. EDT

Last week's regrettable 5-4 decision in Kelo v. City of New London marks a new low point in the Supreme Court's takings jurisprudence. The Constitution allows private property to be taken for public use only on payment of just compensation. But what counts as public use? In Kelo, Justice John Paul Stevens held that courts, especially federal courts, should be hugely deferential to a government decision, done after comprehensive hearings, to displace one private property owner in favor of a second private party in the name of overall economic development.

To understand why Kelo is truly horrible, it is necessary to look both at Kelo and the constitutional logic of public use requirement. On the former, the declining economic fortunes of New London spurred the city elders to embark on a general urban development plan, underwritten by $73 million in state money devoted to general planning, physical infrastructure and environmental cleanup. The plan lacked only one ingredient--some real live developer prepared to risk his own capital to build any office or hotel on part of the 90 or so acres the city already had.

Not content with its overheated vision, New London's plan envisioned taking down about 15 old homes overlooking Long Island Sound, to be used for some unidentified form of "park support." Fancy new private homes were not listed on the plan. None of the endless frustration and delays in implementing its grand plan were attributable to the decision of some landowners to fight New London. Quite simply, the slow rate of development made obsolete some of the original projects, such as a luxury hotel to support a new nearby Pfizer facility. Pfizer could not wait 10 years to house its visiting dignitaries. One obvious compromise position, therefore, should have appealed even to the five-member majority on the Supreme Court: to force the city to postpone the condemnation of these private homes until the city revealed its hand.

No such luck with Justice Stevens, for in his view New London had made its case when it asserted, without evidence, that the new projects would both increase tax revenues and create new jobs. It hardly mattered that its projections had been pulled out of thin air and were already hopelessly out of date when the case reached the Supreme Court. All that need be shown to Justice Stevens was procedural regularity and some claim that the proposed project served some "public benefit."

Astute readers will quickly note that the phrase "public benefit" is far broader than the constitutional words "public use." That latter phrase clearly covers only two situations. The first arises when land is taken to build government facilities, such as forts, or to construct infrastructure, such as highways, open to all. The second covers those cases where property is taken by, or conveyed to, private parties who are duty bound to keep it open to all users. Private railroads and private grist mills, both of which are subject to the common carrier obligation of universal service, are two obvious examples. Note too that once a given use is properly identified as public, it does not matter for constitutional purposes whether the project is wise or is as foolish as New London's redevelopment program. The constitutional inquiry is over once it is proved that the project falls into these categories. Factually, the standard of review hardly matters, for it takes little genius to prove that a given structure is a fort or a highway.

There are, however, good reasons why the public use language has long been extended to cover some cases of takings for private purposes with indirect public benefits. One recurrent problem of social coordination arises when one party is in a position to blockade the productive ventures of another. To take a real historical example, assume that the owner of a mine (who has no choice on where to dig) can get his ore to market only by ferrying it over scrub lands owned by another individual. That second landowner can demand a huge chunk of the mining profits for his trivial contribution to the overall venture. For over 100 years, the Supreme Court has allowed the state to condemn the obstructing property for the mine owner upon payment of just compensation, here measured by the trivial losses sustained by the obstructing landowner. The net gains from blocking the holdout are huge.

The great intellectual blunder of the public use law over the past 50 or so years is that it has wrenched the public benefit language out of this narrow holdout context. In the mid-1950s, the Supreme Court held that takings were for public use when they were intended to relieve various forms of urban "blight"--a slippery term with no clear constitutional pedigree. Thirty years later, the court went a step further by allowing Hawaii to force landlords to sell their interests to sitting tenants, as a means to counteracting ostensible "oligopolistic" market conditions. Now any "conceivable" indirect social benefit would do, without regard to the attendant costs.

Given this past legacy, Justice Stevens found it easy to take New London at its word. Any comprehensive public project will produce some benefit for someone, so that--as Justices Sandra Day O'Connor and Clarence Thomas stressed in dissent--his test always allows the legislature to gin up some rationale for taking public property for just compensation (which alas falls far short of making the individual landowner whole: legal, appraisal and moving costs, for example, are systematically ignored). But the slightest bit of reflection should have shown just how the new public use cases have migrated from the old mining cases, or even under the Hawaii statute, which did not displace sitting tenants.

In the present case, Susette Kelo and her fellow plaintiffs have not tried to extract some unconscionable gain out of some sensible business venture. They have no desire to sell their homes at all. At the same time their subjective losses have been enormous. It was a perfectly sensible line for the court to say when subjective values are high, and holdout problems are nonexistent, the requisite public use is not present.

The court could arrive at its shameful Kelo ruling only by refusing to look closely at past precedent and constitutional logic. Courts that refuse to see no evil and hear no evil are blind to the endemic risk of factional politics at all levels of government. And being blind, this bare Supreme Court majority has sustained a scandalous and cruel act for no public purpose at all.

Mr. Epstein is a professor of law at the University of Chicago and a senior fellow of the Hoover Institution.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110006904
0 Replies
 
john w k
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jul, 2005 10:06 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Here is another opinion that seems to side with JWK's position on this one. Professor Epstein beautifully lays out the policy of using bad precedents to make bad decisions. It sort of ties in with my signature line: "Thousands of ethicists and bioethicists, as they are called, professionally guide the unthinkable on its passage through the debatable on its way to becoming the justifiable, until it is finally established as the unexceptional."--Neuhaus


“Bad precedents to make bad decisions.” Exactly so! And it is done a little at a time until the original document, as interpreted by the SCOTUS, would not be recognizable by those who framed and ratified the Constitution.

The 14th Amendment is a typical example. Those who quote Bingham for the intent of the 14th Amendment, and suggest the intent was to make the Bill of Rights in the federal Constitution applicable to the various states, miss the motivation of Bingham and the evil he attempted to cure by H.R. 63 [ H.R. 63 eventually evolving into the 14th Amendment].

The evil Bingham was attempting to cure by H.R. 63, as stated in his own words, was: “The adoption of this amendment is essential to the protection of the Union men of Tennessee …” who “…have no security except from the armed presence of the United States Government there. And, when the State shall be restored, and the troops of the Government withdrawn, they will have no security in the future except by force of national laws giving them protection against those who have been in arms against them.” [/i]

So, as those who have studied the debates of the 39th Congress can plainly see, in addition to securing to blacks basic civil and fundamental rights which whites enjoyed at the time, Bingham’s motive in promoting the 14th Amendment was also to create federal protection to union troops returning home after the war___ protection in their life, liberty and property___, who I might add are no longer alive and in need of such federal protection, which therefore limit’s the intended protection of the 14th Amendment to protection against state legislation which discriminates based upon race, color or previous condition of slavery, and not the shopping list conjured up the SCOTUS which the majority of the Court has fraudulently claimed to be within the intended meaning of the Amendment, and has recently been pointed to by the Court [see PGA Tour, Inc., v. Martin,]
to demand a handicapped individual is entitled to use a motor vehicle while playing in a golf tournament! See my article Something for real Americans to ponder

Who, in their right mind would not agree that the SCOTUS has become America’s most formidable domestic enemy?


JWK
ACRS
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jul, 2005 11:38 am
john w k wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:
I need clarification. Are you claiming that you're NOT an expert with respect to the Constitution?


But Debra, it was you who stated that I claimed to be a constitutional expert, when in fact I never made such a claim. Perhaps you ought to look within yourself for your clarification, especially as to your propensity for pretending about what another has stated. Remember, it was you who made the claim about “expert”, not me. But I see you have decided to once again misdirect the subject matter into an inquiry concerning my background, which seems more important to you than supporting your opinions concerning constitutional issues.



JWK, FOUNDER, ACRS:

You have established yourself as a constitutional expert. It doesn't matter if you said, "I am a constitutional expert." You're holding yourself out as an expert in the manner in which you portray yourself.

Please review the definitions of "expert" and "charlatan" posted above.

Six years ago, I traveled out-of-state to spend the Fourth of July with my father and step-mother at the lake home they acquired for their retirement.

The lake waters were exceptionally high that year and the lake waters completely covered the former sandy lake beach. My father and step-mother worked diligently to rebuild their lake front putting in a new beach; building beautiful planters to divide the new sandy beach from their lush lawn; installing a new patio and barbeque pit next to the lake front; and landscaping and planting flowers.

It was breath-takingly beautiful. The flowers were in full bloom. And, on this day six years ago, my father and I sat together on his lake front patio and were drinking in the beauty that surrounded us. My father, however, looked tired. He commented about all the work he had accomplished and then lamented, "In my mind, I'm still a young man . . . but my body doesn't cooperate with my mind."

His energy was clearly zapped. A couple of weeks later, he went to see his HMO doctor because his fatique was growing worse and his stomach became bloated. Tests were taken and he was diagnosed with liver cancer . . . and given only 2 months to live UNLESS he qualified for a liver transplant. The liver scans showed that my father's liver was peppered with cancer lesions too numerous to count.

I had returned home after the 4th of July holiday, but when I heard the news I rushed back and accompanied him to visit his oncologist.

An oncologist is a cancer doctor. An oncologist has special knowledge and skills in treating cancer patients. Accordingly, he is an expert in his field of medicine. The doctor never said he was an expert, but he advertised himself as an oncologist; he practiced in the oncology department of the large clinic and medical center that handled my father's HMO plan; and he talked to us extensively about my father's cancer.

My father was dying of liver cancer. The oncologist told us, if they could rule out cancer elsewhere in my father's body (if the cancer had not spread), my father would be a good candidate for a liver transplant. However, the oncologist was scheduling several follow-up visits to the clinic to conduct additional tests and followed by even more visits after that to get the results.

Wait a minute, I protested: You only gave my father a couple of months to live. You stated the only way he could survive is if he receives a transplant--but my father won't qualifiy for a transplant if the cancer has spread. Therefore, TIME IS OF THE ESSENSE. I won't allow you to waste my father's remaining valuable time by testing him to death; we need those tests NOW in order to get him on the transplant list.

After the oncologist continued to drag his feet, I did some major butt chewing and lit a fire under their a$$es. After all, my father's days were numbered and the oncologist led us to believe my father's life could be saved with a liver transplant--if the cancer had not spread--and we were growing frantic because no progress was being made in getting my father on a transplant list . . . THE AGONY and frustration was overwhelming.

As it turns out, the oncologist misled us. After a few weeks, several trips to the clinic, and about a hundred frantic calls; I was finally able to talk with the transplant coordinator at a major university hospital and she was quite frank: My father did not qualify for a liver transplant because he had more than two cancer lesions on his liver. What? My father's liver was peppered with lesions. Why did the oncologist give us false information and FALSE HOPE? Why were we spending our final days together in a frantic race to save my father's life based on false information? We could have been spending those days coming to terms with the diagnosis and cherishing our final days together in the peaceful comfort of my father's beautiful lake home.

ANGER! The oncologist was an EXPERT . . . was he not? He knew or should have known that my father didn't qualify for a liver transplant based on the protocols. Why did he give us false hope and why were we forced to live those final days in frantic frustration and extreme emotional distress? CHARLATAN!

But wait . . . the oncologist NEVER SAID he was an expert with respect to treating cancer patients. Since when can any person "reasonably believe" that the oncologist claimed to be an expert in treating cancer patients simply because he labeled himself as an oncologist, advertised himself as an oncologist, worked in the oncology department of the medical center, and spoke authoritatively on the subject of my father's cancer?

Even though he never claimed to be an expert; wasn't it reasonable for us to believe that he was an expert?

What is the definition of FRAUD and DECEIT?

A fraud is committed when a person assumes a false pose; becomes an impostor; a charlatan.

Quote:
The common usage definition of "fraud" and "deceit"

In common usage, fraud and deceit are synonyms for lying or fooling another person as to the correct identity of a person or thing. . . .

The Webster's New World dictionary contains 4 different definitions of the word "fraud," only one of which is the legal definition. (And even that definition is not sufficiently precise or complete, and is more confusing than enlightening, so we omit it from our discussion.) The non-legal definitions emphasize lying:

Deceit; trickery; cheating;

Something said or done to deceive; trick; artifice

A person who deceives or is not what he presents to be; impostor; cheat.

The dictionary lists "deception" as a synonym.

The dictionary defines the related term of "deceit" as follows:

The act of representing as true what is known to be false; deceiving or lying

A dishonest action or trick; fraud or lie

The quality of being deceitful.

"Deceitful," in turn, is identified as being synonymous with "dishonest," and "deceive" is defined as "mak[ing] (a person" believe what is not true; delude; mislead".

The common usage of "fraud" and "deceit" or their verbs essentially means to lie. While lying is an important part of the legal meaning of fraud and deceit, it is not the entire part of the definition, and it is easy to focus only on the lie miss the fact that there are other elements which must be proven or there will be no claim for fraud.

The legal definition of "fraud"

Fraud as a tort (i.e., a civil wrong exclusive of contract which entitles a plaintiff to recover damages) has recently been defined by the California Supreme Court as follows: (a) misrepresentation (false representation, concealment, or nondisclosure);

(b) knowledge of falsity (or "scienter");

(c) intent to defraud, i.e., to induce reliance;

(d) justifiable reliance; and

(e) resulting damage.



Engalla v. Permanente Medical Group, Inc. (1997) 15 Cal.4th 951, 964 Cal.Rptr.2d 843, following the definition in Lazar v. Superior Court (1996) 12 Cal.4th 631, 638,49 Cal.Rptr.2d 377. Most courts will define fraud only with reference to these five elements. As shown below, however, each of these elements in fact has a number of components which require careful analysis, since they are often interrelated which each other and can cause considerable confusion among counsel as to which element is in fact under consideration.

Before doing so, let's compare this legal definition with the common meaning of fraud. Lying, the essence of the common understanding of fraud, is still present in the misrepresentation or concealment requirements, as well as in the requirement that the defendant know the representation is false. (How else would you have a lie?) But there are three additional requirements necessary for a fraud cause of action that do not occur in the everyday use of the word.

First, the "intent to defraud" is actually an intent to induce reliance, to make the other party rely on the false statement. This is different from straight-out lying, where the lie may be simply to protect the liar. If there is a civil cause of action, the lie, if you will, must be told to make the other person change his or her position in the transaction in question.

Next, the party hearing the misrepresentation must actually and justifiably rely on the misrepresentation. This element goes hand in hand with the idea that the misrepresentation must be intended to induce reliance, and requires not only that there be actual reliance, but that there be reasonable reliance. We certainly don't want to clog the courts by "lies" that obviously were never meant to be believed.

Finally, there must be monetary damages caused by the fraud. Damages, as we will see, mean monetary damages which must be linked directly to the misrepresentation.

Other forms of fraud

The fraud we discuss in this article is the most commonly seen form of fraud. It is often called "actual fraud" (inaccurately, by the way) or "intentional misrepresentation" (accurately). Other types of fraud, discussed elsewhere on this web site, include negligent misrepresentation and a promise made without the intention of keeping it (promissory fraud).

To make matters even more complicated, the statutes and the case law distinguish between actual fraud--which is either an intentional misrepresentation, negligent misrepresentation, or promissory fraud--and constructive fraud, which, among other things, includes breaches of fiduciary duty. The different types of actual fraud are treated in this article and in the articles referenced above; we also have an article on what constitutes a breach of fiduciary duty.

Analyzing the elements of fraud

Let's now look at each of the five elements of intentional fraud in greater detail.

1. Misrepresentation

The first requirement is a misrepresentation, but a misrepresentation of what? The misrepresentation must ordinarily be of a present or past fact. An expression of what the person believes will happen in the future can usually not form the basis for a fraud claim. This distinction is easy to draw in theory, but hard to implement in practice. For example, if the seller represents that a piece of property is capable of producing a specified return on the buyer's investment, is that a representation of an existing or a future fact? Both clients and counsel must approach such representations with great care, for the characterization of them can determine whether or not the case or the defense will be successful.

Next, the misrepresentation must be of a material fact. If the realtor lies to you about the color of his mother's eyes, that is hardly a fact that will determine whether or not you will buy the property he is selling. Legally, it is not material to your decision of whether or not to buy, and therefore is not the type of representation which can justify a fraud claim.

Opinions as such are not statements of fact. In many cases, they are not actionable. Like many doctrines in the law, the rule has nearly been swallowed by the exceptions. If the person stating the opinion holds himself out as possessing superior knowledge or special information about a fact, that opinion may be treated as a statement of fact and hence proper grounds for a fraud action if it is known to be untrue. Or an opinion, if stated as a fact, can also be deemed to be proper grounds for a fraud action. The representation of an opinion therefore requires careful analysis and consideration by both parties of a fraud suit to determine if it is in fact actionable.

Not all misrepresentations are out and out lies, however. Sometimes the fraud is committed by concealing a fact, or by failing to disclose a fact. This presents some of the most complicated and difficult areas of fraud, not the least of which is because the distinction between concealment and nondisclosure is thin.

Concealment. If a person actually conceals facts relevant to the validity of a transaction while under a duty to disclose those facts, the concealment can operate as a fraud. The courts sometimes use the term suppression of facts instead of concealment. There are three types of concealments:

Intentional concealment of known defects in property;

Active prevention of an investigation or discovery of material facts; or

Speaking dishonestly or misleadingly.

The first two examples are self-explanatory, as is the first party ("speaking dishonestly") of the third example. The rest of the third example, speaking misleadingly, applies to the situation where the person is not under a duty to speak, but makes statements which are misleading without full disclosure. This part of the subelement (!) also applies if he disclosed some facts but suppresses others which would place the partially-disclosed facts in context.

Nondisclosure. Sometimes the failure to speak does not quite rise to the level of concealment, but is merely a failure to disclose certain facts. Generally, such nondisclosure is not fraudulent unless there is a fiduciary or confidential relationship between the parties, in which case the fiduciary has an absolute duty to disclose anything which even might be relevant to the transaction.

Even in the absence of a fiduciary or confidential relationship, one party does have a duty to disclose material facts where that persons (1) knows of the facts and (2) knows that the other party doesn't know the fact and cannot readily discovery them. This type of actionable nondisclosure frequently occurs in the sale of real property where the seller fails to disclose conditions which cannot be determined by inspection which would affect the value of the property.

2. Knowledge or scienter

The next requirement for a tort claim for fraud is that the person making the misrepresentation actually know that the statement is false. Courts often refer to this element as "scienter" (pronounced "sigh-en-ter," with the accent on the middle syllable), which comes from the same root as "science" which itself is one of the participles of the Latin verb for "to know." Scienter and knowledge are identical; the only difference is that "knowledge" is clear and concise English and "scienter" is Latinate legalese. Guess which one courts and lawyers like to use.

Knowledge of the falsehood is obviously an important element. The law does not usually punish innocent misrepresentations; the person making the misrepresentation must actually know that the representation is false. Fraud is not a strict liability tort where people are made to guarantee the accuracy of everything they say.

On the other hand, people cannot run around making any representation they please. If the person making the representation acts in reckless disregard of the truth, even the fact fact that he or she may not know the representation to be false will not exculpate them from potential liability. In such cases, the law will deem the reckless representation the same as if the false representation were knowingly made.

3. Intent to defraud/induce reliance

At first blush, the element of intent to defraud seems redundant. How does this really differ from guilty knowledge of the falsity of the representation? Why would anyone make a misrepresentation without intending for it to be acted upon? In fact, isn't the definition somewhat circular, by making one of the elements of the fraud an intent to do the element?

Once again, the standard formulation has become a bit too spare. As the Supreme Court indicated in recent cases, this element is really an intent to make the other party rely on the representation. This element isn't litigated very often, but it can be crucial in formulating a defense or avoiding a dismissal in the right case. It usually arises when the representation was not made directly to the party relying on it. That may seem unusual, but it really isn't: consider a fraudulent misrepresentation made by a seller of a house which is repeated innocently by the buyer when the buyer sells the house 25 years later.

Note that this element has much in common with the materiality of the representation. Once again, the traditional wording of a fraud claim leaves much to be desired since its elements are often composites of factors shared with other, supposedly distinct elements of the tort.

4. Justifiable reliance

This element, too, has multiple components, and even some surprising assumptions. The first is the flip side of scienter, a requirement of lack of knowledge by the person relying on the false representation. Why? As a matter of logic, how can a person rely on a misrepresentation which he knows to be false? The damage in a fraud claim occurs because one of the party thought something was true when it wasn't. Therefore, if the party knows that a statement is false, he can't be harmed by it.

Actual reliance. Assuming, then, that the victim of the fraud doesn't know that the representation is false, he must next demonstrate actual reliance on the representation. "Actual reliance," like so many of the terms used by lawyers, is a word of art. The Supreme Court defines it thusly:

"Reliance exists when the misrepresentation or nondisclosure was an immediate cause of the plaintiff's conduct which altered his or her legal relations, and when without such misrepresentation or nondisclosure he or she would not, in all reasonable probability, have entered into the contract or other transaction."

Alliance Mortgage Co. v. Rothwell (1995) 10 Cal.4th 1226, 1239, 44 Cal.Rptr.2d 352. This element often causes confusion among lawyers and clients alike. It requires an allegation that without the representation, the plaintiff would not have entered into the transaction in question. The allegation is necessary to show reliance, but many lawyers mistakenly believe that it applies to damages as well. After all, they argue, if the plaintiff wouldn't have entered into the transaction, shouldn't he get back everything he invested in the transaction?

Such analysis confuses damage with reliance, and leads to no end of trouble for those who fail to distinguish between the two. Damages, as we will see below and in another article, depend on the remedy being chosen. The purpose of the reliance allegation is simply to demonstrate that the plaintiff entered into the transaction on the basis of the facts as represented by the defendant. If the plaintiff entered the transaction because he liked the deal, not because of anything the defendant said, how could there be any liability for fraud? This method of pleading is a necessary element in order to show that the plainitff's injuries flow from the alleged misrepresentations.

Not the sole cause. There is another factor about actual reliance that should be noted. California case adopted the Restatement, 2d view that the misrepresentation need not be the only cause that made plaintiff enter into the transaction:

"It is not ... necessary that [a plaintiff's] reliance upon the truth of the fraudulent misrepresentation be the sole or even the predominant or decisive factor in influencing his conduct.... It is enough that the representation has played a substantial part, and so has been a substantial factor, in influencing his decision." (Rest.2d Torts, § 546, com. b, p. 103.)

Engalla v. Permanente Medical Group, Inc. (1997) 15 Cal.4th 951, 977, 64 Cal.Rptr.2d 843. This makes perfect sense. After all, the plaintiff would probably not be entering into the transaction if there were not economic reasons for doing so, and the misrepresented fact may not be the sole reason for the transaction. It must, however, be a substantial reason. Note that this is closely akin to the reasoning of

Justifiable reliance. So we have a plaintiff who didn't know the truth, and actual causation, i.e., the plainitff would not have done the deal had he known the true facts. There is yet a third requirement, that of justifiable reliance. Depending on the facts, the plainitiff's reliance on the representation may not be reasonable or justifiable under the circumstances.

"Under the circumstances" means that this is almost always a question of fact for the jury to decide, based on the skill, knowledge, education and experience of the plaintiff. Gray v. Don Miller & Associates, Inc. (1984) 35 Cal.3d 498, 503, 198 Cal.Rptr. 55. However, there are a few cases where the courts have found that there could be no justifiable reliance. Typical among these are cases that involve lawyers. Hence, the courts have held that a lawyer could not rely on the statements of her riding instructor that a liability waiver was meaningless and unenforceable (Guido v. Koopman (1991) 1 Cal.App.4th 837, 2 Cal.Rptr.2d 437). Or, in one of the more interesting cases, the court held that a plaintiff could not justifiably rely on representations by a lawyer representing an adversary in negotiations (Wilhelm v. Pray, Price, Williams & Russell (1986) 186 Cal.App.3d 1324, 231 Cal.Rptr. 355).

Duty to investigate? However, there may be a duty of inquiry. While this rarely rises to the level that a defendant can get a fraud case thrown out before trial, it is a defense that a plaintiff cannot afford to ignore, and which the defendant must always consider. At trial it can kill a fraud case, since a plaintiff will be held to have known everything that a reasonable investigation would have revealed. As with all other aspects of fraud, there are many exceptions.

Fiduciary relationship exception to duty to investigate. A major exception to the rule of justifiable reliance occurs when there is a fiduciary or confidential relationship with the defendant. In those cases, there is no duty of inquiry. "The nature of the relationship is such as to cause the plaintiff to rely on the fiduciary, and awareness of facts which would ordinarily call for investigation does not excite suspicion under these special circumstances. " Lee v. Escrow Consultants, Inc. (1989) 210 Cal.App.3d 915, 921, 259 Cal.Rptr. 117.

5. Damages

Damages in a fraud claim are so complex in California that they merit an entire article unto themselves, which we provide elsewhere on this web site. Particularly in California, careful attention must be given to seeing if there are any damages which are recoverable. For example, emotional distress damages are usually not allowed in a fraud claim involving the purchase, sale, or exchange of property. Moreover, unless the remedy is to rescind the contract and recover what has already been paid, the damage must be monetary.

The other issue involved in damages is causation. The Supreme Court in its definition in Engalla described the element as "resulting damages," "resulting" meaning that the damages flowed from the misrepresentation. Although this element is not often litigated, courts can be strict in requiring plaintiffs to show a causal connection between the alleged misrepresentations and the damages plaintiffs claim to have suffered. As one court expressed it, "Deception without resulting loss is not actionable fraud." Hill v. Wrather (1958) 158 Cal.App.2d 818, 825, 323 P.2d 567.

How can such a thing happen, that there can be a false statement which caused no damages? The full explanation, alas, must await our discussion of fraud damages in another article. For now, we simply alert you that plainitiff must not only show actual damages, but damages caused by the misrepresentations. There is no claim for being lied to unless the lies caused actual monetary damages.

Conclusion

Although the legal definintion of fraud can be stated in five elements, this reduced version hides a large number of related concepts. Fraud is dramatically more complex and difficult to deal with than simply regurgiating the elements. In fact, a mechanical following of the "easily identified" elements will lead a plaintiff to perdition faster in a fraud claim than just about any other kind of claim this side of antitrust or RICO. Counsel and client must insure that they have both thoroughly examined and thought through difficulties they are likely to encounter before brining such an action.



Source


My father's oncologist NEVER SAID he was an expert in the treatment of cancer patients. But, it was reasonable for his patients (and their families) to believe that was holding himself out as an expert by labeling himself as an oncologist; practicing in the oncology department; and stating "expert opinions" based on alleged facts (if the cancer has not spread to other parts of your body, then you qualify for a liver transplant).

Similarly, you have deceived me and now assert that you NEVER CLAIMED to be an expert. If you are not claiming to be an expert, then you are engaging in deception and I am offended by your actions. You hold yourself out as the FOUNDER of the "AMERICAN CONSTITUTIONAL RESEARCH SERVICE," you are a prolific writer on the subject and you set forth your opinions as conclusions based on facts (as you apparently believe the "facts" to be).

Accordingly, you misled me. You made me believe that you were claiming to be an expert. If you do not claim to be an expert, why do you mislead or deceive people? Is the ACRS a bona fide organization that offers expert constitutional research services or is it merely fictitious entity that you created solely to lend unwarranted credibility to your writings? If it's not your intent to deceive, why not explain?

You are the one who signs his post with "ACRS" or with "FOUNDER, AMERICAN CONSTITUTIONAL RESEARCH SERVICE." You do not place any disclaimers after your credentials. Accordingly, I ask that you explain whether or not you hold yourself out as an expert so that I am not intentionally misled in the future. What is the purpose of the organization, the ACRS, that you claim to have founded? Do you offer research services to the public? What "services" do you provide, if any?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jul, 2005 12:18 pm
Well in defense of John, he didn't say he wasn't an expert. He only said he hadn't claimed to be an expert. So far as one's credentials go, all onocologists are not experts with all forms of cancer any more than all orthopaedics are experts with all forms of orthopaedic injury, surgery, and/or rehabilitation.

In my past I was head of a large service organization that included, among many programs, a very good preschool. All the advertising for that preschool indicated "Little Prairie Preschool--Foxfyre, Executive Director." (Foxfyre is an alias in this case and was not my baptismal or professional name.)

By virtue of the title and affiliation, would you presume I was an expert in preschool organization and teaching? You would presume wrongly as I have zero expertise or even experience in either. However, I did have some expertise in promotion, fund raising, administration, and management and I directly or indirectly hired and supervised a staff that had a collective hundred years of experience and expertise among them.

The only confidence that I applied to John's signature is that he implies access to a degree of constitutional expertise and/or association with people with such access.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jul, 2005 12:26 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Well in defense of John, he didn't say he wasn't an expert.


The Constitution means __________. It is a FACT that the Constitution means __________; accordingly, the United States Supreme Court is _____________.


Debra_Law
J.D.
Founder
DLNAECCRS (Est. July 4, 2005)
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jul, 2005 12:36 pm
LOL. Well you would be opening yourself up to challenge of how you know that whatever is a FACT Smile

As to the credentials I would wonder and ask about them in hopes of determining your base of expertise and experience. I would not automatically assume you were claiming expertise, though on some, even many, points of the law you have more than adequately demonstrated apparent expertise.
0 Replies
 
john w k
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jul, 2005 02:58 pm
Debra_Law wrote:



JWK, FOUNDER, ACRS:

You have established yourself as a constitutional expert.



I have? I feel flattered you would so say. Thank you for your kind words. But, my dear, my only important contribution in this forum has been the offering of research, from original source materials, concerning the intent of those who framed and ratified our federal constitution, an example of such research being found in my last post concerning the intent of the 14th Amendment.

In regard to the rest of your lengthy and irrelevant post, Debra, regarding my background, it reminds me of two commonly used stupid debating tricks . . . “Attack The Messenger“, and, “The Bait & Switch” game___ useful tools identified in stupid debating tricks, which are usually applied by those who wish to misdirect the subject matter when they are incapable of refuting facts which contradict opinions they have proffered.


JWK
ACRS

On every question of construction [of the Constitution], let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." --[/i]Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823, The Complete Jefferson, p. 322.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jul, 2005 03:53 pm
Your Land Is My Land

Quote:






By JOHN TIERNEY
Published: July 5, 2005
PITTSBURGH — Two questions I'd like to ask candidates for Sandra Day O'Connor's job:

1. Does the Constitution forbid the government from seizing your home and giving it to someone else?

2. If you're not sure, would you be willing to tour Pittsburgh before taking this job?

Justice O'Connor had no problem with the first question. Noting that the Fifth Amendment allows property to be taken only for a "public use" like a road, she rejected arguments that it could be given to a developer just because the public could benefit from new jobs and tax revenues. By that logic, she argued in one of her last opinions, no one's home or business would be safe from anyone with a better use in mind for it.

But her side was outvoted, 5 to 4, by justices not inclined to be too literal about the Bill of Rights. They were pragmatists, arguing that land grabs like this had previously been allowed, which is quite right. And that's why I recommend a trip to my hometown to see the long-term effects.

Pittsburgh has been the great pioneer in eminent domain ever since its leaders razed 80 buildings in the 1950's near the riverfront park downtown. They replaced a bustling business district with Gateway Center, an array of bland corporate towers surrounded by the sort of empty plazas that are now considered hopelessly retrograde by urban planners trying to create street life.

At the time, though, the towers and plazas seemed wonderfully modern. Viewed from across the river, the new skyline was a panoramic advertisement for the Pittsburgh Renaissance, which became a national model and inspired Pittsburgh's leaders to go on finding better uses for private land, especially land occupied by blacks.

Bulldozers razed the Lower Hill District, the black neighborhood next to downtown that was famous for its jazz scene (and now famous mostly as a memory in August Wilson's plays). The city built a domed arena that was supposed to be part of a cultural "acropolis," but the rest of the project died. Today, having belatedly realized that downtown would benefit from people living nearby, the city is trying to entice them back to the Hill by building homes there.

In the 1960's, the bulldozers moved into East Liberty, until then the busiest shopping district outside downtown. Some of the leading businessmen there wanted to upgrade the neighborhood, so hundreds of small businesses and thousands of people were moved to make room for upscale apartment buildings, parking lots, housing projects, roads and a pedestrian mall.

I was working there in a drugstore whose owners cursed the project, and at first I thought they were just behind the times. But their worst fears were confirmed. The shopping district was destroyed. The drugstore closed, along with the department stores, movie theaters, office buildings and most other businesses.

You'd think a fiasco like that would have humbled Pittsburgh's planners, but they just went on. They kicked out a small company to give H. J. Heinz more room. Mayor Tom Murphy has attracted national attention for his grand designs - and fights - to replace thriving small businesses downtown and on the North Side with more upscale tenants.

The city managed to clear out shops and an office building to make room for a new Lazarus department store, built with $50 million in public funds, but Lazarus did not live up to its name. It has shut down and left a vacant building. Meanwhile, the city's finances are in ruins, and businesses and residents have been fleeing the high taxes required to pay off decades of urban renewal projects and corporate subsidies.

Yet the mayor still yearns for more acquisitions. He welcomed the Supreme Court decision, telling The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette that eminent domain "is a great equalizer when you're having a conversation with people." Well, that's one way to describe the power to take people's property.

But I think a future Supreme Court justice would have a different view of eminent domain after touring Pittsburgh's neighborhoods, especially those that escaped urban renewal: the old-fashioned business districts with crowded sidewalks and the newly gentrified neighborhoods with renovated homes and converted warehouses. The future justice would quickly see what sets the success stories apart from Gateway Center and East Liberty. No politicians ever seized those homes and businesses for a "better use."
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Jul, 2005 03:47 am
I wish I knew what could be done to stop this. Having every region in the country pass a law forbidding the taking of someone's property for less than an emergency is not very likely to work. There will always be regions with no such law or insufficient laws, and, as a result, cases of the strong preying on the weak in a way that wouldn't have been possible before this horrendous decision. I really feel that we shouldn't take this lying down, but I am not sure how to fight it.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Jul, 2005 09:08 am
The best way to fight it is to get behind the president and throw our full support toward his appointing judges who understand the intent of the Constitution and who rule to uphold it rather than amending it via rulings according to their own personal tastes, beliefs, and/or ideology. We had protection against the powerful being able to legally seize the property of the less powerful until the Court bypassed the Constitution and decided that the states could decide that. It is far too tempting for a state to put economic development or favor with the big bloc of voters ahead of the private interests of a relatively few individuals. The founders of the Constitution seemed to understand that. A majority of the current Supreme Courts seems to not understand that.
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