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Complete Cognitive Dissonance

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 11:02 am
Oh, C'mon, Woiyo!

Get serious.

Tico,

I guess the big difference between us is in the absence of more info, you choose to trust the US gov't every time, and I do not.

I understand your typcially lawyerish 'can't prove anything' attitude, but with the tight control the military has over the place and the lack of an oversight body, there is NO WAY that the truth can ever really be known if they don't wish it to! You are essentially advocating a situation in which the gov't can never be held blameful for something which cannot be 100% proven, and when the gov't holds all the cards, you can't get the proof you need. This is exactly the situation that allows abuses to go on even today.

Which is why when allegations are made, they deserve to be fully and openly investigated; which we are NOT doing, by the way.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 11:06 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I guess the big difference between us is in the absence of more info, you choose to trust the US gov't every time, and I do not.


That is a big difference.

Quote:
I understand your typcially lawyerish 'can't prove anything' attitude, but with the tight control the military has over the place and the lack of an oversight body, there is NO WAY that the truth can ever really be known if they don't wish it to! You are essentially advocating a situation in which the gov't can never be held blameful for something which cannot be 100% proven, and when the gov't holds all the cards, you can't get the proof you need. This is exactly the situation that allows abuses to go on even today.


I am not suggesting 100% proof is required, but I am suggesting that speculation and conjecture are poor substitutes for facts.

Quote:
Which is why when allegations are made, they deserve to be fully and openly investigated; which we are NOT doing, by the way.

Cycloptichorn


Sez who?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 11:11 am
Sez me. In the absence of an independent investigatory body, there is no real investigation going on.

Internal self-investigations cannot be trusted as the preservation of the Armed Forces, internal politics, and secrecy keep the real information from ever coming out. And you know this. Can you imagine being asked to investigate your own company for tax fraud, or look into your own assualt charge? Ludicrous!

And yet no independent investigation will be held. Because the truth isn't important to the people in charge....

Quote:
I am not suggesting 100% proof is required, but I am suggesting that speculation and conjecture are poor substitutes for facts.


At what percentage of proof does speculation become fact? Just wondering

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 11:15 am
And you will waste everyones time investigating every single allegation made by every single prisioner held just to find the few legitimate cases.

Ask any prisioner if they are being treated properly and I would suspect 99% would say NO!

That kind of attitude puts the handcuff on the military. That kind of attitude is wrong.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 11:19 am
No, it isn't. It is wrong to say that it is a waste of time to investigate abuses!

Whose time will be wasted, exactly? The prisoners? They don't have sh*t to do as it is! How about the guards? Their time is so damned important that they can't answer some questions? Please!

Those 'few legitimate cases' are important, man. We can't be doing this kind of stuff if we want people to respect the US and think of us as 'good guys' and without that, you can kiss winning the War on Terror Gooooodbye

You realize all this, of course....

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 11:23 am
My exact quote was wasting time INVESTIGATING EVERY SINGLE ALLEGATION... as you seem to suggest and the media and the Democrats seem to be portraying this situation as widespread.

Their stratagy is effective as it HAS turned public opinion at home and abroad against out militarys efforts there and making there job more difficult tham it already is.

There job as you know is one I am against. But since they are there, they need our support. This type of mis-information is not helpful.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 11:25 am
He never even remotely suggested that anyone investigate every complaint--that's a feeble attempt on your part to erect a strawman.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 11:29 am
My exact comment was ...the article and the media make it appear as ALL prisioners are being tortured.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 11:31 am
No, they don't. Noone believes that EVERY prisoner is being tortured and in no way does the media or the article I posted present this idea.

This is a straw-man argument, as Set put so well.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 11:37 am
http://medvedfans.blog-city.com/dick_durbins_comments.htm

Durbin made the comparison after reading an FBI agent's report describing detainees at the Naval base in Guantanamo Bay as being chained to the floor without food or water in extreme temperatures.

"If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime - Pol Pot or others - that had no concern for human beings," Durbin said Tuesday.

Durbin COULD have said...WHAT A FEW AMERICANS HAD DONE TO A FEW PRISIONERS.. He did not. He painted a broad brush.


This article also paints with a broad brush.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 11:42 am
No, it doesn't. Durbin described a situation which actually happened, and then said that if he didn't say that it was the FBI doing it, then you would surely assume it was done by someone with no concern for human beings, like one of those 'mad regimes.' And that is true. If you described these techniques to someone who didn't know it was the US behind them, they could easily assume that these were the actions of a much more brutal country.

Get off of Durbin's back, he's not the point here at all; he didn't say that every prisoner was being abused, he didn't say that every soldier was participating in abuses. You are reading that into what he said and chastising him for NOT saying that every soldier was NOT involved. But it goes without saying that every soldier can't be involved. I think Durbin merely assumed those who were listening had half a brain.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 11:46 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I think Durbin merely assumed those who were listening had half a brain.

A demonstrably unwarranted assumption.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 11:52 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
I am not suggesting 100% proof is required, but I am suggesting that speculation and conjecture are poor substitutes for facts.


At what percentage of proof does speculation become fact? Just wondering

Cycloptichorn


Good question ... I'd say somewhere between "purely guessing" and "corroboration."
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 11:54 am
BS- The likes of Durbin , Clinton, Kennedy and those who share YOUR position have not accuratly communicated the depth of the so-called torture.

You use the blame America first line by painting with a broad brush.

Why then did the article not say how many prisioners were tortured? To what degree were they "tortured".

Why did not Durbin say a FEW Americans tortured AFEW prisioners?

I'll ignore your childish attack since you can not defend yourself regarding this position.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 12:05 pm
Sure I can. My defense is called Reality, and there's no reason that you should think I'm attacking you in any way; I'm actually rather fond of ya these days.

Quote:
Why then did the article not say how many prisioners were tortured? To what degree were they "tortured".


The reason the article exists in the first place is because one of the UN task force on Torture guys leaked the fact that the Americans are copping to torture in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Gitmo in front of the committee. The article itself refers to a pentagon document, and this is the important part, which will not be publicly released until May 2006.

You can't report details that the military admits exist, but won't let you see. The article isn't about reporting specific facts or figures, merely reporting what was said in front of the commiteee; and even that wasn't supposed to have been made public.

Don't you see how hard it is to get the truth out of these people? You think they make it easy to find out about misconduct and abuses, especially when someone other than the lower-level troops are implicated? It isn't easy. It takes a long time and a lot of work to uncover the truth.

'Blame America first,' my ass. Who am I supposed to blame for torture that Americans committ? The guy being tortured? Some other country? Who? I am a patriot and strident supporter of our country, which is why I feel we need to get to the heart of the matter.

There is a cancer eating away at us, and instead of exploratory surgery, you want us to ignore it. Well, I'm not going to ignore it and I'm not going to shut up about it so you'd better just get used to it.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 12:17 pm
I very strongly suspect that those who whine about "blame America first" secretly approve of these methods--they just don't have the balls to say it up front.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 12:21 pm
woiyo wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
woiyo wrote:
I will guess less than 5% of the total prisioners held MAY be receiving some form of torture.

What does ALL THE TIME mean??

Prove this is widespread, effecting a majority of prisioners, then maybe I will be concerned about it.

What a disgusting, appalling attitude.


I agree. It is disgusting and appalling to misrepresent what is really going on. To assume anything other than a few isolated and minor instances of torture is a disservice to our military forces who by and large are doing the right thing.

I'm not assuming anything. But you've stated that torturing 5% of the prisoners is acceptable to you. And that you might be concerned when it is proven to be happening to 51+% of the prisoners.

You are a disgrace to the American people.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 12:24 pm
Setanta wrote:
I very strongly suspect that those who whine about "blame America first" secretly approve of these methods--they just don't have the balls to say it up front.


That's nearly as insightful as the claim made in the Gay Marriage thread that those who are opposed to gay marriage are they themselves homosexual.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 12:27 pm
You forgot the verb there Tico . . . i was just trying on for size one of the favorite methods of woiyo, who used a similar treatment recently. Thought i'd see if anyone would rise to the bait . . . thanks . . .
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2005 12:35 pm
You're welcome. Was I what you were fishing for?

[verb added]
0 Replies
 
 

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