Complete Cognitive Dissonance

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US acknowledges torture at Guantanamo and Iraq, Afghanistan: UN source

Quote:

GENEVA (AFP) -

Washington has for the first time acknowledged to the United Nations that prisoners have been tortured at US detention centres in Guantanamo Bay, as well as Afghanistan and Iraq, a UN source said.

The acknowledgement was made in a report submitted to the UN Committee against Torture, said a member of the ten-person panel, speaking on on condition of anonymity.

"They are no longer trying to duck this, and have respected their obligation to inform the UN," the Committee member told AFP.

"They they will have to explain themselves (to the Committee). Nothing should be kept in the dark."

UN sources said it was the first time the world body has received such a frank statement on torture from US authorities.

The Committee, which monitors respect for the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, is gathering information from the US ahead of hearings in May 2006.

Signatories of the convention are expected to submit to scrutiny of their implementation of the 1984 convention and to provide information to the Committee.

The document from Washington will not be formally made public until the hearings.

<snip>

At Gitmo? Torture? I'm shocked!

What does Cheney have to say about the place?

Quote:

"They're living in the tropics. They're well fed. They've got everything they could possibly want," the vice president said.

How can any of you possibly believe anything the Administration says any longer? They lie, lie, lie as often as they open their mouths.

Cycloptichorn

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I know but they got t his covered later in the article by saying much what they have already been saying in the media.

Quote:

"They said it was a question of isolated cases, that there was nothing systematic and that the guilty were in the process of being punished."

The US report said that those involved were low-ranking members of the military and that their acts were not approved by their superiors, the member added.

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I dunno. I mean, how many isolated incidents can you have before you admit that the culture of the place permits/encourages beatings and tortures?

I understand that they WON'T admit any such thing, but anyone with half a brain can figure out that when so many instances have occured in a wide variety of different places, there is a problem with the system which allows this to happen.

Cycloptichorn

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What exactly was the nature of the "torture" that Washington said occurred at Gitmo?

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"Yeah, we use torture - so what?"

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War is the culture that breeds torture.

It happens everywhere.

They have been admitting it and investigating it.

What a knee-jerk!

I guess you stopped believing all Democrats when Clinton was found mired in so many lies....

Think about what you're saying.

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The article and the liberal media makes it appear that ALL prisioners are being tortured. When idiots like Dick Durbin make blanket statements like the article, it is not helpful.

We all know the so-called torture is of a FEW prisioners. Many, will not admit that.

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The article doesn't say. But here's an example for ya:

Quote:

US Soldier Sues Pentagon over Guantánamo Beating

Washington, June 20 (RHC)-- A US soldier who was seriously beaten when he posed as a foreign prisoner during a training drill at Guantánamo is suing the Pentagon for 15 million dollars. Spc. Sean Baker was medically retired from the military after he suffered a traumatic brain injury in January 2003.

The 38-year-old military policeman was assaulted after he volunteered to wear an orange jumpsuit and portray an uncooperative detainee. Baker said his fellow MPs, who were told that he was an unruly detainee who had assaulted an American sergeant, severely beat him -- leaving him with seizures, blackouts, headaches, insomnia and psychological problems.

In the lawsuit filed in US District Court in Lexington, Kentucky, Baker asked the Army to reinstate him in a position that would accommodate his medical condition. He said the Army put him on medical retirement against his wishes. Baker is also demanding 15 million dollars in damages.

The Pentagon initially said that Baker's hospitalization following the training incident was not related to the beating. Later, officials conceded that he was treated for injuries suffered when a five-man MP "internal reaction force" choked him, slammed his head several times against a concrete floor and sprayed him with pepper gas.

The drill took place in a prison isolation wing reserved for suspected Al Qaeda and Taliban detainees who were disruptive or had attacked MPs. Baker said he put on the orange jumpsuit and squeezed under a prison bunk after being told by a lieutenant that he would be portraying an unruly detainee. He said he was assured that MPs conducting the "extraction drill" knew it was a training exercise and that Baker was an American soldier.

As he was being choked and beaten, Baker reportedly screamed a code word and shouted: "I'm a US soldier! I'm a US soldier!" He said the beating continued until the jumpsuit was yanked down during the struggle, revealing his military uniform.

The lawsuit says of the extraction team: "Armed with the highly inflammatory, false, incendiary and misleading information that had been loaded into their psyches by their platoon leader, these perceptions and fears... became their operative reality, and they acted upon these fears."

Baker's attorney, T. Bruce Simpson, Jr., told reporters that no one has been disciplined or punished for the assault. Last June, a military spokesman said an internal investigation in February 2003 had concluded that no one was liable for Baker's injuries. The Pentagon spokesman said training procedures at Guantánamo had been "reviewed" after the incident.

http://www.periodico26.cu/english_new/world/soldier200605.htm

They beat him so badly that he has brain damage, and noone is punished.

You know as well as I do that this isn't an isolated incident; it is likely that this sort of thing goes on all the time.

We know that prisoners in various camps have undergone a wide variety of tortures, resulting in anyting from psychological to physical damage and deaths. What is surprising about this story to you?

Cycloptichorn

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Woiyo

Quote:

The article and the liberal media makes it appear that ALL prisioners are being tortured. When idiots like Dick Durbin make blanket statements like the article, it is not helpful.

We all know the so-called torture is of a FEW prisioners. Many, will not admit that.

Please! Durbin isn't the issue here. The issue is the torture that goes on in our name...

You say that the torture is of a FEW prisoners, but how many is a few? What percentage? See, you don't really know, do you? It could be far more prevalent than you assume, and given that more and more and more stories are coming out about torture, it is logical to assume that a whole bunch of them are being covered up; after all, the ones that we know about now were covered up before.

The wide geographic dispersal of these allegations leads to the conclusion that the problem is endemic of the entire armed forces, or at least the part which deals with prisoners. This is a bad thing.

Cycloptichorn

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I will guess less than 5% of the total prisioners held MAY be receiving some form of torture.

What does ALL THE TIME mean??

Prove this is widespread, effecting a majority of prisioners, then maybe I will be concerned about it.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

The article doesn't say. But here's an example for ya:

Right, it doesn't say. I've seen other articles claiming "torture" by American soldiers, but they were talking about loud music, cold or hot rooms, and nakedness.

The point I'm making is the entire thrust of the article you cited in your initial post appears to be that the US is acknowledging "torture" at Gitmo, but all we have to go on is the report of another anonymous source. You might understand I'm a bit leery about believing the opinions of anonymous sources in reviewing text. Of course the Newsweek incident comes to mind.

Plus, I don't understand your comment later in that post:

Cyclops wrote:

How can any of you possibly believe anything the Administration says any longer? They lie, lie, lie as often as they open their mouths.

So, will you believe them when and if they actually admit torturing prisoners, or won't you?

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Heh, the best lies are mixed with truth in order to create a situation exactly like what you have described; one in which you can't believe anything, and it is difficult to even know what the truth is in a situation.

The 'anonymous source' in this case refers to gov't reports detailing the events, which, if you RTFA, you will see are not being released until May 2006 for some reason or another.

But, if you want evidence that it goes on, why not comment on the other article that I posted about a US soldier getting the sh*t beat out of him by his fellow soldiers while impersonating a detainee? You gonna comment on that? Is THAT torture to you?

Cycloptichorn

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Since Gonzales has said that torture is only torture if the detainee suffers pain that equals to the pain of organ failure or death and that cruel and inhumane treatment does not fall under torture, he created an atmosphere where it would be easy to find loopholes. They encouraged an atmosphere that would be receptive to cruel and inhumane treatment and if some went over the fine line then only they were punished. They didn't give guidelines and left it to those in the field to try and figure out the fine lines and if they were caught, so what, at least the detainees are in custody.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26401-2004Jun8.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/documents/dojinterrogationmemo20020801.pdf

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woiyo wrote:

I will guess less than 5% of the total prisioners held MAY be receiving some form of torture.

What does ALL THE TIME mean??

Prove this is widespread, effecting a majority of prisioners, then maybe I will be concerned about it.

What a disgusting, appalling attitude.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Heh, the best lies are mixed with truth in order to create a situation exactly like what you have described; one in which you can't believe anything, and it is difficult to even know what the truth is in a situation.

The 'anonymous source' in this case refers to gov't reports detailing the events, which, if you RTFA, you will see are not being released until May 2006 for some reason or another.

So why assume "torture" as used by this anonymous source means what you think it means? You, I know, will allow your brain to imagine the worst, and you will believe it to be true until proven otherwise. I will not.

Quote:

But, if you want evidence that it goes on, why not comment on the other article that I posted about a US soldier getting the sh*t beat out of him by his fellow soldiers while impersonating a detainee? You gonna comment on that? Is THAT torture to you?

Cycloptichorn

What's to comment on. I don't know what the facts are any more than you do, other than what's in the news articles. I assume he'll have his day in court and the opportunity to prove his case.

I'm sure that sort of thing goes on, and it happens in every prison in this country, and in other countries as well. Prisons are known for that -- don't you watch movies? Prisoners sue prisons and prison guards every day for this sort of thing. That doesn't make it right ... and it appears, if true, to be the use of an excessive amount of force.

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Yet you stubbornly refuse to admit that with the large numbers of reported cases/deaths/allegations, there must be an environment which allows such things to go on.

I understand that our prisons have some of the same problems; that doesn't make it right, at all. That just means we have two problems instead of one problem.

Do you seriously believe that this soldier, and let's say his allegations are true (for why would he lie?) for now, is the only one to be abused in this way? No. Far from it. You know this. And you know that this is wrong.

And yet you deny, deny, deny... you state

Quote:

So why assume "torture" as used by this anonymous source means what you think it means? You, I know, will allow your brain to imagine the worst, and you will believe it to be true until proven otherwise. I will not.

Well, what do YOU think it means?!?!? I hardly doubt Torture refers to a bad batch of Tea & Crumpets, yaknow

I referred you to the ACLU FOIA documents page, where you can read about how they use dog bites, beatings, 2nd-degree burns and electrical shocks. So maybe that's why when I hear 'torture' I tend to think of such things. Because they have actually happened, as much as you like to deny it; and because there exists an environment full of people (like you) who frankly don't give a damn about human rights when it comes to our enemies because, apparently, you either don't see them as Human or just plain don't care.

Either way, I can't understand it.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Yet you stubbornly refuse to admit that with the large numbers of reported cases/deaths/allegations, there must be an environment which allows such things to go on.

I am waiting for the facts to be known before I jump to a conclusion.

Quote:

I understand that our prisons have some of the same problems; that doesn't make it right, at all. That just means we have two problems instead of one problem.

I believe I said that the fact the sort of thing alleged here goes on elsewhere doesn't make it right anywhere.

Quote:

Do you seriously believe that this soldier, and let's say his allegations are true (for why would he lie?) for now, is the only one to be abused in this way?

If his allegations are true, it seems likely, IMO, that there are other such cases. Whether there are no more cases, 1 more case, or 1,000 more cases neither you nor I know, and the articles you've posted -- neither one -- shed any light on the subject.

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(for why would he lie?)

The obvious answer is because he wants money from the government. I'm not saying he is lying, or embellishing, or that he has money as his motive for filing his lawsuit, but you asked and I responded.

Cyclops wrote:

And yet you deny, deny, deny... you state

Tico wrote:
So why assume "torture" as used by this anonymous source means what you think it means? You, I know, will allow your brain to imagine the worst, and you will believe it to be true until proven otherwise. I will not.

Well, what do YOU think it means?!?!? I hardly doubt Torture refers to a bad batch of Tea & Crumpets, yaknow

The point, and I've said this before, is you don't have a clue what the underlying report says, what the anonymous source told the reporter, or what the reporter meant by his/her use of the term "torture." What do you think I'm denying? I don't deny the fact that I haven't a clue what was meant by that term, or that I've seen that term used in the past to describe what I would consider to be an typical college hazing program.

Cyclops wrote:

I referred you to the ACLU FOIA documents page, where you can read about how they use dog bites, beatings, 2nd-degree burns and electrical shocks. So maybe that's why when I hear 'torture' I tend to think of such things. Because they have actually happened, as much as you like to deny it; and because there exists an environment full of people (like you) who frankly don't give a damn about human rights when it comes to our enemies because, apparently, you either don't see them as Human or just plain don't care.

I know you think of such things when you read the word "torture," and that is precisely why I jump in to point out to you that before you jump to the conclusion you are predisposed to make, you should consider that you have no idea what was intended by the use of that word, and beyond that, you don't know what was actually said in the report in question, aside from the double hearsay reporting.

You did refer me to the ACLU website, and if memory serves, you weren't able to point me in any particular direction there, told me to read it all, and I declined the opportunity to read their entire library.

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DrewDad wrote:

woiyo wrote:
I will guess less than 5% of the total prisioners held MAY be receiving some form of torture.

What does ALL THE TIME mean??

Prove this is widespread, effecting a majority of prisioners, then maybe I will be concerned about it.

What a disgusting, appalling attitude.

I agree. It is disgusting and appalling to misrepresent what is really going on. To assume anything other than a few isolated and minor instances of torture is a disservice to our military forces who by and large are doing the right thing.

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Complete Cognitive Dissonance

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