The Nature of Patriotism

Your welcome, friend.

Appreciating the momentary distraction, Slappy! LOL, got it bookmarked already.

Hmm - is the same not then true of arguing anywhere?

Still, we must find distractions in our journey from womb to grave...or urn...

Thanks for clearing that up Craven. I hope he remains safe and with a lucky SNAFU may he be shipped to Tahiti.

Buzzcook

That would not be atypical in the least, Buzzcook.

Slappy - that's beautiful!

Lusatian -- I believe patriotism involves trying to do what you believe is best for your country. That includes disagreeing with the majority of your countrymen if necessary. It includes taking seriously one's obligation to follow what one believes to be a moral course even if it means not supporting America's actions, and recognizing the possibility that our elected leaders are endangering this country and the rest of the world. Patriotism is not limited to -- and sometimes does not even include -- supporting one's country in time of war.

"Some, Tartan in particular, have gone beyond making their opposition to national policy known and have expressed the hope that the Iraqi operation will be a failure. She has also come close to advocating insurrection against our legitimate government during time of war."...Asherman

Asherman -- I stumbled on this thread and noted your characterizations of my beliefs. What really caught my eye here is your preoccupation with quotes from "Tartan." I haven't advocated insurrection and you know it. I'm far from being alone in believing that the administration has gone way too far and have recently signed an impeachment petition for that reason. This administration is endangering our country and, to no less a degree, the world. I hope it fails in that mission, fails politically and soon, and is forced to step back (or preferably down!) before putting more lives and freedoms in danger. If it manages to maintain power and the confidence of many Americans, the protests will continue. Civil protest -- word or deed -- is perfectly reasonable, well-precedented, and democratic, as you know. More often than not it is an active and risky form of patriotism. I think you also experienced the Vietnam era when draft cards and flags were burned and the government excoriated during another war many believe to have been futile and illegitimate, and protesters were actually killed by military.

If you find me spouting a factual error, I hope you'll let me know. Yell back at me if you must -- that's your right -- but don't try to make my words mean something they don't. I hope you will try to respect those who are protesting this war, remembering that they are carrying on the American tradition of speaking truth to power.

(Tartarin, who is your avatar?)

Re: The Nature of Patriotism

hmm, lusatian. Looking at the Constitution, not finding anything in the way you suggested. Quite contrary, I see a lot of stress being put on the freedom of opinion and expression. America is famous for giving precedense to this right before other rights also legally, compared to most countries in the world. And again, sigh. Citizenship does not equal voting. Even people in dictatorships vote. If that was the case, you would not be able to call this country a democracy at all. You have not been replying to these posts, so I assume you may have been called to your duty, if that's the case, best of luck and come back safe. Otherwise you would have replied, right?

William Lloyd Garrison, Dlowan, author of that quote, writer and publisher but above all abolitionist: he suffered considerable protest and even threats against his life for leading the movement to abolish slavery in the US (and was considered a nut!)...

We wouldn't have a democracy, Lusatian, if we hadn't had "forefathers" who fought all the way along to create this republic, defend it, AND challenge it when it was wrong. We are noted for wars which have not been fully supported in this country, and often the protesting side turned out to have been right. We have had disastrous wars based on the lies of presidents (Spanish-American, Vietnam). The Constitution guarantees us a process that protects us from tyrants and liars, as well as from violence change a legitimately elected government (impeachment, election) but does not protect the citizen OR the government from disagreement or protest. There hasn't been a single military action in my lifetime (including WWII) behind which all Americans united. As long as we are a democracy, there won't be.

It's a good quote Tartarin

(Thank you Tartarin! May we gather many such nuts...)

Asherman

I am unsure to what service you are putting sentences such as the above. It is certainly not to the service of careful discourse. You really ought to get clear on the notion of 'straw man', because you continually make this move. It's not helping you think clearly and it's not making your posts - trust me on this - compelling.

Please find any one any where here who has said 'end badly for the US and its allies'. You might respond, "I've rephrased the logical construction of the person's claim". No. You've reworded what was said so that you can have an easier thing to attack - that's a straw man.

Your second sentence..." That sentiment is the hope that the worst predictions be realized"... is an exaggeration, and clearly not the intent of any speaker here, even if you use that 'is' in there. Again, you set up an easy target by changing what was said and intended so you don't have to wrestle with what was said and intended. Another straw man.

Canada's non-participation is more likely to make me want to travel there. And I'd feel safer.

Wilso
And I will be here to personally welcome you ;-)

Hmmm - interesting phenomenon - since war began, proportion of Australians polled who support it gone from 18% to 45% - result of attempt to resolve cognitive dissonance, or some sort of support our troops right or wrong thing?

That always happens, Dlowan. Ovinitis.

We might want to also discuss The Pitfalls of Patriotism.

dlowan

Similar poll result in the US. And I've been set to pondering this too.

I'd think there is something to your cognitive dissonance notion, particularly if construed in a social sense, rather than merely internally. I think we (generally, as a social species) have a tendency to fall towards unanimity. Let's call it the 'sheep factor'. In times of stress, I think such a factor likely to be more compelling.

But also, I'd posit that the military and information people have now become very adept indeed at 'product presentation'. Modern marketing technology is considerably more advanced than mere guesswork, and these boys are using it.

Note how they have facilitated controlled information feeds - spiffy jets, cameras in the nose cones of missles, brave blue eyed soldiers showing photos of their lovely children, constant briefings from grandfatherly generals, etc. They learned from Viet Nam that if they don't fill the news vaccum, then writers and cameramen with independent agendas will. Thus the massive proportion of media content is 'good news'. We won't see the burned children - in fact, that will be labelled as giving comfort to the enemy if it even gets past the corporate concern for advertising dollars.

Bingo, Blatham.