1
   

Harping On Abu Ghraib and Gitmo is Highly Misguided

 
 
chiczaira
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 10:10 pm
JTT apparently does not read poilitical history.

After 10 months of his second term, with 38 months remaining, JTT has pronounced Bush as mediocre.

If Bush had lost the Senate and the House in 2002, he might be closer to mediocre. He did not lose the Senate or the House. That honor fell to Bill Clinton, who, was so distracted by his bimbos that he lost the Senate and the House in 1994 and the Democrats, with a very short hiatus due to Jeffords's defection, have never regained it.

JTT is apparently unwilling to wait to see if the trashing that happened to the Superb Clinton in 1994 will happen to the mediocre Bush in 2006.

It won't, thus putting the lie to JTT's claim.

JTT apparently does not remember that Ronald Reagan had a 35% approval rating in Jan. 1983 but went on the crush Walter Mondale in 1984 by getting 60% of the popular vote and 489 Electoral Votes. When the election of 2006 is held, I will be ready to note whether or not Bush's leadership is mediocre as Clinton's was when he lost the House and Senate or superb as it will be when the Republicans retain both houses.

I really don' t think JTT knows a great deal about the nitty gritty of politics.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 04:46 am
Quote:

If Bush had lost the Senate and the House in 2002, he might be closer to mediocre. He did not lose the Senate or the House. That honor fell to Bill Clinton, who, was so distracted by his bimbos that he lost the Senate and the House in 1994 and the Democrats, with a very short hiatus due to Jeffords's defection, have never regained it.



So is it the case that the President is also responsible for the success or failure of elections for the Senate and the House and not the Republican Party or the Democratic Party? If that's the case does it mean that the Congress is subservient to the President?

And just one more

Quote:
JTT is apparently unwilling to wait to see if the trashing that happened to the Superb Clinton in 1994 will happen to the mediocre Bush in 2006.

It won't, thus putting the lie to JTT's claim.


If you can forsee the future can you give me the numbers for this Saturday night's lotto?
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 06:28 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
"You position is naive to these facts." ROFLMAO

Have you ever heard about the Nuremberg Trials?

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/nuremberg.htm


OK. Then let's hold all of them at GITMO until after the war is over. Then we can have a trial just like Nuremberg.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 06:38 am
woiyo wrote:


OK. Then let's hold all of them at GITMO until after the war is over. Then we can have a trial just like Nuremberg.



Or possibly a trial like the one they held for Alger Hiss for Dickless Durbin and the leaders of the demokkkrat party.

Joseph Farah's take on the situation.


Quote:

It's no secret. I don't like Bill Clinton.

So, I had hoped someone else would write this column.

As was so often the case during his scandalous presidency, no one else has.

There was much outrage over Sen. Dick Durbin's disgusting, false indictment of U.S. military personnel at Guantanamo Bay, I was almost certain others might notice Clinton's remarks to the London Financial Times on the same subject.

In the wake of Durbin's comparison of the treatment of terrorists at Gitmo to the torture chambers of the Nazis, Stalinists and Khmer Rhouge, Clinton was asked to weigh in.

Did he repudiate the treacherous remarks of Durbin? No. Did he distance himself from those remarks? No. Did he add fuel to the anti-American fires stirred by Durbin in a time of war? Yes, he did.

Speaking to a foreign newspaper, Clinton announced the prison at Guantanamo should "be closed down or cleaned up."

"It is time that there are no more stories coming out of there about people being abused," Clinton told the newspaper.

Given the timing, that would be a despicable and irresponsible remark if it had been uttered by an ex-president to a U.S. news agency. After all, Durbin had cast U.S. military guards at the prison as the moral equals of Nazi storm troopers. While few may take Durbin seriously here in the United States, those kinds of comments are eaten up in venues like al-Jazeera. They are republished and rebroadcast all over the Muslim world where they are seen as evidence Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida are fighting a just and holy war against the United States. They not only place our troops in greater danger, they place every American citizen in greater danger.

So, you might expect an ex-president, in the heat of that controversy, to be a little more circumspect when asked about the inflammatory issue - especially in a foreign newspaper.

But it's nearly always a mistake to expect Bill Clinton to do the right thing under such circumstances.

Let's remember who is imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay. About 520 prisoners with links to Afghanistan's ousted Taliban regime or the al-Qaida terror network. These are people who support bin Laden. These are people who kill for bin Laden. These are people who may have information that can help us catch bin Laden. These are people who, if given the chance, would conduct attacks on the United States like those directed by bin Laden on Sept. 11, 2001.

These are people who would slit Dick Durbin's throat as quickly as they would shake hands with him. These are people who hate Bill Clinton as much as they hate President Bush. These are people who, if they had the chance, would kill millions of Americans.

But Dick Durbin and Bill Clinton are concerned because the air-conditioning in their cells wasn't high enough - or maybe it was too high.

Maybe I'm just not as "sensitive" as these humanitarians, but I just can't get excited about the temperature in the cells of these terrorists. If it were up to me, I'd fry all 520 of them. And I still wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Why is it that people like Bill Clinton and Dick Durbin work themselves up into a lather about the human rights of anti-American terrorists, but they wouldn't lift a finger to help a disabled American woman starved to death by court order?

Why is it that people like Bill Clinton and Dick Durbin care more about the human scum in Gitmo than they do about the most innocent of all human life - millions of babies in their mothers' wombs?

Why is it that people like Bill Clinton and Dick Durbin never seem to have the intestinal fortitude to fight real enemies who threaten real Americans, while supporting wars of no consequence to U.S. security?

The answer to all these questions is simple: They have no moral bearings. They are evil men supporting evil agendas.
0 Replies
 
thethinkfactory
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 06:57 am
The last three pages are off topic:

Someone give me an argument that we should consider detainee's of Gitmo as 'unlawful combatants' and that allows the U.S. to suspend thier God given rights as humans to Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of happiness.

If you say that they are terrorists - THAT fact has yet to be proven.

Stay on topic and try not to make this a left v right bullshit scrap where nothing can become decided. Stop quoting the spin fill bullshit laden rhetoric of whatever opinionated news channel you tune into and stick to the moral issue at hand.

Would ignoring the suspension of God given rights of Gitmo detainees be a good thing?

TTF
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 06:57 am
It is obvious that no one has trust in us which is why when we hear of an abuse in our war prisons people are so apt to be believe it. No one trust the military to carry a just investigation into the abuses or to clean up their own house. By no one I am including a good of the American people as well as the world.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 07:18 am
Back to Gitmo
Quote:
Speaking to a foreign newspaper, Clinton announced the prison at Guantanamo should "be closed down or cleaned up."

"It is time that there are no more stories coming out of there about people being abused," Clinton told the newspaper.


While I'm not a Clinton fan, I don't see anything to scream at in this quote. I think there should be "no more stories coming out of there about people being abused" also.

Quote:
What POWs have ever been afforded a trial? The people tried at Nuremberg were not POWs captured on the battlefied, and they were only tried after the war ended.


Are the prisoners in Gitmo POW's? If so, they have rights and one of those is to claim they are not combatants and get a hearing, not a trial. POW's are not criminals, so they don't need a trial. If not, then they are prisoners suspected of crimes, they should get a hearing to hear the evidence against them.

This is really not that hard. If another country were doing this to our service members, we would be up in arms and justifiedly. We expect American prisoners, either POWs or criminals, to be treated with a certain minimum level of decency. We need to stop feeding the anti-American media machine by holding prisoners in Gitmo or reform the system so that it is more like a POW camp including assess to the outside world through the Red Cross.
0 Replies
 
chiczaira
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 11:25 am
I am looking for a web site which shows the Uniforms worn by the prisoners at Gitmo when they engaged our troops. I am also interested in finding a sketch of the chain of command and hierarchy in their army. Then, of course, we can demand that the Prisoners be allowed all of the privileges of the Geneva Convention.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 11:42 am
chiczaira wrote:
I am looking for a web site which shows the Uniforms worn by the prisoners at Gitmo when they engaged our troops. I am also interested in finding a sketch of the chain of command and hierarchy in their army. Then, of course, we can demand that the Prisoners be allowed all of the privileges of the Geneva Convention.

Quote:

CHENEY: ...The important thing here to understand is that the people that are at Guantanamo are bad people. I mean, these are terrorists for the most part. These are people that were captured in the battlefield of Afghanistan or rounded up as part of the Al Qaeda network...


http://www.blogsforbush.com/mt/archives/004657.html

Cheney said some of them were taken off the battlefeild of Afghanistan. Which means we were in a war which would make them POWs. Others were rounded up as as Part of the AQ network which would make alleged terrorist which means that they have a right to defend the charges against them in a court of law.
0 Replies
 
chiczaira
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 12:20 pm
Gee, I guess I was misinformed. I thought you needed Uniforms and a Chain of Command to be considered as a soldier with rights afforded to them under the Geneva Convention.

Is that why FDR had some German Saboteurs who entered this Country EXECUTED during World War II?

They seem to have been the same types we have in Gitmo. Cowardly bastards who DO NOT wear uniforms, are not in a chain of command with a responsible leader clearly identified, and who engaged in reprehensible suicide attacks which kill many innocent civilians.

I guess I am too hardhearted.
0 Replies
 
chiczaira
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 12:20 pm
Gee, I guess I was misinformed. I thought you needed Uniforms and a Chain of Command to be considered as a soldier with rights afforded to them under the Geneva Convention.

Is that why FDR had some German Saboteurs who entered this Country EXECUTED during World War II?

They seem to have been the same types we have in Gitmo. Cowardly bastards who DO NOT wear uniforms, are not in a chain of command with a responsible leader clearly identified, and who engaged in reprehensible suicide attacks which kill many innocent civilians.

I guess I am too hardhearted.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 01:10 pm
chiczaira wrote:
I am looking for a web site which shows the Uniforms worn by the prisoners at Gitmo when they engaged our troops. I am also interested in finding a sketch of the chain of command and hierarchy in their army. Then, of course, we can demand that the Prisoners be allowed all of the privileges of the Geneva Convention.



If the people held at Gitmo are not prisoners of war subject to the Geneva Convention, what are they?

See JOHNSON v. EISENTRAGER, 339 U.S. 763 (1950)

Quote:
Respondents, who are nonresident enemy aliens, were captured in China by the United States Army and tried and convicted in China by an American military commission for violations of the laws of war committed in China prior to their capture. They were transported to the American-occupied part of Germany and imprisoned there in the custody of the Army. At no time were they within the territorial jurisdiction of any American civil court. Claiming that their trial, conviction and imprisonment violated Articles I and III, the Fifth Amendment, and other provisions of our Constitution, laws of the United States and provisions of the Geneva Convention, they petitioned the District Court for the District of Columbia for a writ of habeas corpus directed to the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of the Army, and several officers of the Army having directive power over their custodian. Held:


1. A nonresident enemy alien has no access to our courts in wartime. Pp. 768-777.

(a) Our law does not abolish inherent distinctions recognized throughout the civilized world between citizens and aliens, nor between aliens of friendly and enemy allegiance, nor between resident enemy aliens who have submitted themselves to our laws and nonresident enemy aliens who at all times have remained with, and adhered to, enemy governments. P. 769.

(b) In extending certain constitutional protections to resident aliens, this Court has been careful to point out that it was the aliens' presence within its territorial jurisdiction that gave the Judiciary power to act. P. 771.

(c) Executive power over enemy aliens, undelayed and unhampered by litigation, has been deemed, throughout our history, essential to wartime security. P. 774.

(d) A resident enemy alien is constitutionally subject to summary arrest, internment and deportation whenever a "declared war" exists. Courts will entertain his plea for freedom from executive custody only to ascertain the existence of a state of war and whether he is an alien enemy. Once these jurisdictional facts have been determined, courts will not inquire into any other issue as to his internment. P. 775.

(e) A nonresident enemy alien, especially one who has remained in the service of the enemy, does not have even this qualified access to our courts. P. 776.

2. These nonresident enemy aliens, captured and imprisoned abroad, have no right to a writ of habeas corpus in a court of the United States. Ex parte Quirin, 317 U.S. 1 ; In re Yamashita, 327 U.S. 1 , distinguished. Pp. 777-781.

3. The Constitution does not confer a right of personal security or an immunity from military trial and punishment upon an alien enemy engaged in the hostile service of a government at war with the United States. Pp. 781-785.

(a) The term "any person" in the Fifth Amendment does not extend its protection to alien enemies everywhere in the world engaged in hostilities against us. Pp. 782-783.

(b) The claim asserted by respondents and sustained by the court below would, in practical effect, amount to a right not to be tried at all for an offense against our armed forces. P. 782.

4. The petition in this case alleges no fact showing lack of jurisdiction in the military authorities to accuse, try and condemn these prisoners or that they acted in excess of their lawful powers. Pp. 785-790.

(a) The jurisdiction of military authorities, during or following hostilities, to punish those guilty of offenses against the laws of war is long-established. P. 786.

(b) It being within the jurisdiction of a military commission to try these prisoners, it was for it to determine whether the laws of war applied and whether they had been violated. Pp. 786-788.

(c) It is not the function of the Judiciary to entertain private litigation - even by a citizen - which challenges the legality, wisdom or propriety of the Commander-in-Chief in sending our armed forces abroad or to any particular region. P. 789.

(d) Nothing in the Geneva Convention makes these prisoners immune from prosecution or punishment for war crimes. P. 789.



If the Gitmo detainees are NOT prisoners of war with their detention governed by the Geneva Convention, what is their status? If they are not POWs or war criminals, what authority does the U.S. have to hold these people indefinitely, in limbo, without notice of the charges against them and without an opportunity to respond in violation of the Constitution?

If they are prisoners of war, the Geneva Convention applies.

If they are war criminals, they are subject to military trial.

If they are alleged criminals who are alleged to have violated federal criminal anti-terrorism laws, then their detention and prosecution is subject to the U.S. Constitution.

We can't evade the Geneva Convention and the Constitution by giving these detainees a new name or status for which no law applies.

Long ago, Chief Justice Marshall wrote:

Quote:
Is the proposition to be maintained, that the constitution meant to prohibit names and not things? That a very important act, big with great and ruinous mischief, which is expressly forbidden by words most appropriate for its description; may be performed by the substitution of a name? That the constitution, in one of its most important provisions, may be openly evaded by giving a new name to an old thing? We cannot think so . . .


SOURCE: CRAIG v. STATE OF MISSOURI, 29 U.S. 410 (1830)
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 01:25 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
If they are prisoners of war, the Geneva Convention applies.


Is it your position, Debra, that the Geneva Conventions apply to all "prisoners of war," whether they are or are not signatories to the Geneva Conventions? What is the benefit of signing the document if your theory is correct?
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 02:18 pm
Geneva Convention
We are engaged in a war . . . the law of war applies . . . the detainees at Gitmo are prisoners of war or have a status "similar to prisoners of war" and the Geneva Convention applies.

See HAMDI et al. v. RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, et al.

Quote:

On September 11, 2001, the al Qaeda terrorist network used hijacked commercial airliners to attack prominent targets in the United States. Approximately 3,000 people were killed in those attacks. One week later, in response to these "acts of treacherous violence," Congress passed a resolution authorizing the President to "use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks" or "harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons." Authorization for Use of Military Force ("the AUMF"), 115 Stat. 224. Soon thereafter, the President ordered United States Armed Forces to Afghanistan, with a mission to subdue al Qaeda and quell the Taliban regime that was known to support it.

* * *

The District Court found that Hamdi's father was a proper next friend, appointed the federal public defender as counsel for the petitioners, and ordered that counsel be given access to Hamdi. Id., at 113-116. The United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit reversed that order, holding that the District Court had failed to extend appropriate deference to the Government's security and intelligence interests. 296 F. 3d 278, 279, 283 (2002). It directed the District Court to consider "the most cautious procedures first," id., at 284, and to conduct a deferential inquiry into Hamdi's status, id., at 283. It opined that "if Hamdi is indeed an 'enemy combatant' who was captured during hostilities in Afghanistan, the government's present detention of him is a lawful one." Ibid.

On remand, the Government filed a response and a motion to dismiss the petition. It attached to its response a declaration from one Michael Mobbs (hereinafter "Mobbs Declaration"), who identified himself as Special Advisor to the Under Secretary of Defense for Policy. Mobbs indicated that in this position, he has been "substantially involved with matters related to the detention of enemy combatants in the current war against the al Qaeda terrorists and those who support and harbor them (including the Taliban)."

* * *

Concluding that the factual averments in the Mobbs Declaration, "if accurate," provided a sufficient basis upon which to conclude that the President had constitutionally detained Hamdi pursuant to the President's war powers, it ordered the habeas petition dismissed. Id., at 473. The Fourth Circuit emphasized that the "vital purposes" of the detention of uncharged enemy combatants--preventing those combatants from rejoining the enemy while relieving the military of the burden of litigating the circumstances of wartime captures halfway around the globe--were interests "directly derived from the war powers of Articles I and II." Id., at 465-466. In that court's view, because "Article III contains nothing analogous to the specific powers of war so carefully enumerated in Articles I and II," id., at 463, separation of powers principles prohibited a federal court from "delv[ing] further into Hamdi's status and capture," id., at 473.

* * *

Because "capturing and detaining enemy combatants is an inherent part of warfare," the court held, "the 'necessary and appropriate force' referenced in the congressional resolution necessarily includes the capture and detention of any and all hostile forces arrayed against our troops." Ibid.; see also id., at 467-468 (noting that Congress, in 10 U. S. C. ยง956(5), had specifically authorized the expenditure of funds for keeping prisoners of war and persons whose status was determined "to be similar to prisoners of war," and concluding that this appropriation measure also demonstrated that Congress had "authorized [these individuals'] detention in the first instance").

* * *

The AUMF authorizes the President to use "all necessary and appropriate force" against "nations, organizations, or persons" associated with the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. 115 Stat. 224. There can be no doubt that individuals who fought against the United States in Afghanistan as part of the Taliban, an organization known to have supported the al Qaeda terrorist network responsible for those attacks, are individuals Congress sought to target in passing the AUMF. We conclude that detention of individuals falling into the limited category we are considering, for the duration of the particular conflict in which they were captured, is so fundamental and accepted an incident to war as to be an exercise of the "necessary and appropriate force" Congress has authorized the President to use.

The capture and detention of lawful combatants and the capture, detention, and trial of unlawful combatants, by "universal agreement and practice," are "important incident[s] of war." Ex parte Quirin, 317 U. S., at 28. The purpose of detention is to prevent captured individuals from returning to the field of battle and taking up arms once again. Naqvi, Doubtful Prisoner-of-War Status, 84 Int'l Rev. Red Cross 571, 572 (2002) ("[C]aptivity in war is 'neither revenge, nor punishment, but solely protective custody, the only purpose of which is to prevent the prisoners of war from further participation in the war' " (quoting decision of Nuremberg Military Tribunal, reprinted in 41 Am. J. Int'l L. 172, 229 (1947)); W. Winthrop, Military Law and Precedents 788 (rev. 2d ed. 1920) ("The time has long passed when 'no quarter' was the rule on the battlefield ... . It is now recognized that 'Captivity is neither a punishment nor an act of vengeance,' but 'merely a temporary detention which is devoid of all penal character.' ... 'A prisoner of war is no convict; his imprisonment is a simple war measure.' " (citations omitted); cf. In re Territo, 156 F. 2d 142, 145 (CA9 1946) ("The object of capture is to prevent the captured individual from serving the enemy. He is disarmed and from then on must be removed as completely as practicable from the front, treated humanely, and in time exchanged, repatriated, or otherwise released" (footnotes omitted)).

* * *

In light of these principles, it is of no moment that the AUMF does not use specific language of detention. Because detention to prevent a combatant's return to the battlefield is a fundamental incident of waging war, in permitting the use of "necessary and appropriate force," Congress has clearly and unmistakably authorized detention in the narrow circumstances considered here.

Hamdi objects, nevertheless, that Congress has not authorized the indefinite detention to which he is now subject. The Government responds that "the detention of enemy combatants during World War II was just as 'indefinite' while that war was being fought." Id., at 16. We take Hamdi's objection to be not to the lack of certainty regarding the date on which the conflict will end, but to the substantial prospect of perpetual detention. We recognize that the national security underpinnings of the "war on terror," although crucially important, are broad and malleable. As the Government concedes, "given its unconventional nature, the current conflict is unlikely to end with a formal cease-fire agreement." Ibid. The prospect Hamdi raises is therefore not far-fetched. If the Government does not consider this unconventional war won for two generations, and if it maintains during that time that Hamdi might, if released, rejoin forces fighting against the United States, then the position it has taken throughout the litigation of this case suggests that Hamdi's detention could last for the rest of his life.

It is a clearly established principle of the law of war that detention may last no longer than active hostilities. See Article 118 of the Geneva Convention (III) Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, Aug. 12, 1949, [1955] 6 U. S. T. 3316, 3406, T. I. A. S. No. 3364 ("Prisoners of war shall be released and repatriated without delay after the cessation of active hostilities"). See also Article 20 of the Hague Convention (II) on Laws and Customs of War on Land, July 29, 1899, 32 Stat. 1817 (as soon as possible after "conclusion of peace"); Hague Convention (IV), supra, Oct. 18, 1907, 36 Stat. 2301("conclusion of peace" (Art. 20)); Geneva Convention, supra, July 27, 1929, 47 Stat. 2055 (repatriation should be accomplished with the least possible delay after conclusion of peace (Art. 75)); Praust, Judicial Power to Determine the Status and Rights of Persons Detained without Trial, 44 Harv. Int'l L. J. 503, 510-511 (2003) (prisoners of war "can be detained during an armed conflict, but the detaining country must release and repatriate them 'without delay after the cessation of active hostilities,' unless they are being lawfully prosecuted or have been lawfully convicted of crimes and are serving sentences" (citing Arts. 118, 85, 99, 119, 129, Geneva Convention (III), 6 T. I .A. S., at 3384, 3392, 3406, 3418)).

Hamdi contends that the AUMF does not authorize indefinite or perpetual detention. Certainly, we agree that indefinite detention for the purpose of interrogation is not authorized. Further, we understand Congress' grant of authority for the use of "necessary and appropriate force" to include the authority to detain for the duration of the relevant conflict, and our understanding is based on longstanding law-of-war principles. If the practical circumstances of a given conflict are entirely unlike those of the conflicts that informed the development of the law of war, that understanding may unravel. But that is not the situation we face as of this date. Active combat operations against Taliban fighters apparently are ongoing in Afghanistan. See, e.g., Constable, U. S. Launches New Operation in Afghanistan, Washington Post, Mar. 14, 2004, p. A22 (reporting that 13,500 United States troops remain in Afghanistan, including several thousand new arrivals); J. Abizaid, Dept. of Defense, Gen. Abizaid Central Command Operations Update Briefing, Apr. 30, 2004, http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2004/tr20040430-1402.html (as visited June 8, 2004, and available in the Clerk of Court's case file) (media briefing describing ongoing operations in Afghanistan involving 20,000 United States troops). The United States may detain, for the duration of these hostilities, individuals legitimately determined to be Taliban combatants who "engaged in an armed conflict against the United States." If the record establishes that United States troops are still involved in active combat in Afghanistan, those detentions are part of the exercise of "necessary and appropriate force," and therefore are authorized by the AUMF.


Accordingly, we are applying the laws of war and we must treat the Gitmo detainees humanely in accordance with the requirements of the Geneva Convention. The detention may last no longer than active hostilities.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 03:00 pm
Quote:
First off, prisoners of war are prisoners of the country that captures them; they are not prisoners of the soldier, unit, or commander of the unit that captures them. Also, much along the lines of "innocent until proven guilty," any captured combatant is assumed to be a prisoner of war and must be treated accordingly; if there is any doubt as to the applicability of POW status, the rules regarding prisoners of war must be followed until a proper tribunal is convened to determine whether POW status is applicable on a case-by-case basis. When the United States systematically denied POW status to captured Taliban combatants in the 2001-2002 war in Afghanistan, it was in violation of the third Geneva Convention. In the course of an armed conflict involving parties to the Geneva Convention, captured combatants are POWs until proven otherwise. . . .

On the topic of questioning POWs, the interrogation tactics that seem to be common practice in a time of war are all illegal. The third Geneva Convention outlaws everything beyond the simple asking of a question:

No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.


http://people.howstuffworks.com/rules-of-war3.htm

Quote:
The protection and treatment of captured combatants during an international armed conflict is detailed in the Third Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, which defines prisoners of war (POWs) and enumerates the protections of POW status. Persons not entitled to POW status, including so-called "unlawful combatants," are entitled to the protections provided under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. All detainees fall somewhere within the protections of these two Conventions; according to the authoritative Commentary to the Geneva Conventions of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC): "nobody in enemy hands can fall outside the law."

There are other international legal instruments outside the Geneva Conventions that also affect the treatment of persons during armed conflict -- and after the conflict. While some human rights standards can be derogated or limited during times of war or national emergency, other human rights standards continue to apply in full force at all times. Instruments relevant to the treatment of persons deprived of their liberty detainees include Torture and other ill-treatment of detainees is prohibited as a matter of customary law and treaty. Article 7 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and which the United States ratified in 1992, provides that "No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment." Also in force at all times is the Convention against Torture and other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishmentand the UN Standard Minimum Rules on the Treatment of Prisonersto which the United States became a party in 1994.


http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/pow-bck.htm

Why shouldn't we, as citizens of this nation, express outrage and demand accountability for abuse and torture of prisoners? It is not misguided to voice outrage and dissent. On the contrary, it is misguided to remain silent (and condoning) in the face of the evidence presented.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 03:08 pm
Debra, I find your argument about POWs engaging, but this administration has interpreted the laws of this country and the Geneva Convention differently concerming the prisoners at Gitmo (and our other military prisons). Even the Attorney General of the US supports the position of this administration. Rather an argument in futility, don't you think?
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 03:29 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:
If they are prisoners of war, the Geneva Convention applies.


Is it your position, Debra, that the Geneva Conventions apply to all "prisoners of war," whether they are or are not signatories to the Geneva Conventions? What is the benefit of signing the document if your theory is correct?


The United States of America is a signatory to the Convention and agreed to abide with its terms. Our obligations to treat prisoners humanely are clearly known.

Although Japan was not a signatory to the Convention, we expected Japan to treat prisoners humanely. Upon our victory, we held the Japanese responsible for war crimes regardless of their willingness to be bound by the laws of war:

January 19, 1946. General Douglas MacArthur, Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers, announces establishment of the International Military Tribunal For the Far East (IMTFE) to prosecute Japanese war criminals.

April 29, 1946—November 12, 1948. IMTFE prosecute Japanese soldiers for war crimes, crimes against peace, and crimes against humanity in the Far East. 7 are sentenced to death.

Just because our enemy may not be a signatory to the Convention, this fact does not excuse noncompliance with the Convention on our part.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 03:37 pm
war crimes
What War Captives Faced In Japanese Prison Camps, And How U.S. Responded

Quote:
After his B-24 Liberator crashed into the Pacific Ocean in May 1943, U.S. Army Capt. Louis Zamperini spent 47 days on a life raft before being rescued by a Japanese patrol boat. Then his ordeal really began.

Shipped through a succession of prison camps, he finally arrived at Japan's secret Ofuna interrogation center. There, prisoners thought to hold critical intelligence were placed under a strict regimen designed to make them break. Solitary confinement, blindfolding and compulsory calisthenics were routine. Prisoners were shaved and stripped, forbidden from speaking to each other and made to stand at attention or assume uncomfortable positions for interrogations. Cooperate, and treatment might improve. Violate the rules and you might be slapped or beaten -- or worse.

"There was no such thing as international law, just Japanese law," says Mr. Zamperini, now 88 years old. Japan had never ratified the Geneva Conventions, and Ofuna inmates were told they had no treaty protections -- such as the right to reveal nothing but name, rank and serial number.

Upon Tokyo's surrender, however, the U.S. declared that international law did apply -- and held accountable much of the Japanese hierarchy, from prison guards to cabinet ministers. U.S. military prosecutors brought hundreds of cases for mistreatment of captured Americans, failure to classify them as prisoners of war and hiding them from delegations of the International Committee of the Red Cross. Offenses as minor as failing to post camp rules or holding up a prisoner's meal were considered war crimes. A single count could bring a year at hard labor.

"The defendants in these cases, as you would expect in most contexts of war, believed that the circumstances justified what they were doing," says Prof. David Cohen of the University of California, Berkeley, who has been collecting trial records from around the world for a War Crimes Studies Center1 he founded in 2000.

* * *

Prisoners of the Japanese, however, faced grueling treatment across the board. Forced labor, meager rations and poor medical care were the rule, along with occasional beheadings by samurai sword and even incidents of cannibalism.

But as the U.S. saw it, mistreatment didn't have to rise to the level of torture to merit punishment. For conditions that fell short of torture, prosecutors brought charges under the sweeping Geneva provision that barred "any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."

Along with routine beatings, Japanese interrogators had used solitary confinement, sleep deprivation, blindfolding, head shaving, restricting meals, uncomfortable positions and other techniques to make prisoners talk. Japan failed to register some prisoners or facilities with the Red Cross, delayed delivering their mail or Red Cross packages and denied some Americans POW privileges without full-blown judicial proceedings.




DOES ANY OF THIS MISTREATMENT SOUND FAMILIAR?
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 04:02 pm
more of the article:

Quote:
The World War II defendants insisted that they hadn't received proper training, or that prisoners exaggerated their mistreatment, or that any problems resulted from cultural misunderstandings or were appropriate punishment for breaking camp rules. Low-ranking guards claimed they were following superior orders, while top officers and cabinet ministers blamed rogue subordinates. Defense lawyers argued that Japan wasn't legally bound by the Geneva Conventions and, even if it were, many prisoners, such as Allied flyers, had no right to treaty protections because they committed such war crimes as sabotage or "indiscriminate bombing" of cities.

Hundreds of Trials

. . . the U.S. Army conducted more than 300 war-crimes trials through 1948. More than 90% involved prisoner mistreatment, says Berkeley's Prof. Cohen. American prosecutors focused on Ofuna, a secret interrogation camp run by the Imperial Navy for pilots and other high value prisoners, including Col. Gregory "Pappy" Boyington, the Marine Corps flying ace. Using affidavits and testimony from former prisoners, prosecutors depicted a grim world where men were broken through physical and psychological cruelty.

When Japan failed to cooperate with the Red Cross, the U.S. considered it a war crime. Lt. Gen. Hiroshi Tamura, head of prisoner management, was sentenced to eight years hard labor for, in part, "refusing and failing to grant permission" to the Red Cross to visit prison camps, denying Red Cross delegates "access to all premises" where prisoners were held and refusing to let prisoners speak to the Red Cross without Japanese observers present.

Japanese authorities told Ofuna prisoners that they weren't POWs but unarmed "belligerents" who weren't entitled to Geneva's protections. Navy aviator James Balch testified that an interrogator "explained to me that I wasn't a registered prisoner of war, that I was a special prisoner of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere and was, as far as the Japanese were concerned, still a combatant."

Lawyers for the Japanese defendants argued that since some captured Americans "lost the status of POWs in that they were saboteurs," it was no war crime to withhold POW privileges from them, Army records say. A military commission rejected that argument as "untenable" because "there is no evidence of any judicial proceedings against the … victims for the alleged acts of sabotage by which they would be deprived of their status" as POWs.

The 'Ofuna Crouch'

Japanese interrogators put captured Americans in painful contortions for periods of 30 minutes to several hours. One hated position, the so-called Ofuna crouch, involved "standing on the ball of your foot, knees half bent and arms extended over the head," Navy Lt. Cmdr. John Fitzgerald said in a deposition. . . .

Cmdr. Sashizo Yokura, an Ofuna interrogator, testified that he opposed beating American prisoners, even though beatings commonly were used to discipline Japanese soldiers. He said he had learned from an interpreter who studied in the U.S. that, while "the Japanese think that beating is the simplest punishment when someone violates a regulation, … the Americans consider beatings as the greatest humiliation." Moreover, he said, beatings were counterproductive, as prisoners wasted interrogators' time bemoaning their treatment.

Prosecutors, however, contended that Cmdr. Yokura had subtly signaled guards to soften up prisoners for interrogation. Specifically, they introduced evidence that in December 1944, Cmdr. Yokura delayed the meal of a captured B-29 flyer, Maj. H.A. Walker, and forced him to perform kampan soji, an awkward floor-cleaning exercise using a no-handle mop that typically was used to discipline Japanese sailors. These acts, prosecutors argued, contributed to Maj. Walker's "death by inches" nine months later, after he had been severely beaten by guards and denied medical attention.

Cmdr. Yokura's defense attorney, Michael Braun, challenged this theory in his closing argument. "We all regret the death of Maj. Walker, just as we regret the deaths of 250,000 to 300,000 other Americans who died in the past war," he said. "But the fact that a man died in a Japanese prisoner-of-war camp does not automatically mean that any Japanese brought to trial theoretically for his death is guilty of it." Cmdr. Yokura denied holding up Maj. Walker's meal, but even if he had, Mr. Braun argued, he would have been justified because Maj. Walker refused to give his name, rank and serial number, as required by the Geneva Conventions. The U.S. Army's own Rules of Land Warfare authorized "food restrictions as punishment," he observed.

Mr. Braun urged the military commission not to apply a double standard. "The eyes of the world are focused on what America does here," and "whatever we do is going to be carefully read, carefully scanned, carefully measured against the principles we enunciate."

The commission sentenced Cmdr. Yokura to 25 years at hard labor.




Are we a nation of people who dictate to the world: do as we say; not as we do? Do we apply double standards?

Following Sept. 11, 2001, Bush administration lawyers reexamined the degree of force and cruelty that could be used to interrogate prisoners captured in the war against terrorism. An April 2003 interrogation policy approved by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld listed permissible methods including 20-hour interrogations, "dietary manipulation," "isolation," "sleep deprivation," "face slap/stomach slap," and "prolonged standing."

Aren't we guilty of international war crimes?

http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/abughraib2.jpg

http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/new-toture5.jpg

http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/new-toture1.jpg

MORE PHOTOS
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 04:10 pm
just looks like pics of most anyone's college hazing days at Club Cubana, right?
0 Replies
 
 

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