2
   

Sciavo - Couldn't we figure this out while she was "alive"?

 
 
JustanObserver
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2005 08:29 pm
And how many of us have been saying exactly what this autopsy has proven all along?

Sometimes its frustrating being right damn near all the time and still seeing fools insist that a situation is otherwise.
0 Replies
 
thethinkfactory
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2005 08:34 pm
I can't believe:

1) Lawyers think they are doctors enough to 'review the autopsy'.

2) the damned family is going to shop this around until they find another quack to tell them what they want to hear. The blind leads the blind.

3) I am not saying to trash anyones rights - but my GOD why does EVERYTHING have to go to the supreme court - or in this case to the Senate. She is dead. She caused the damage to herself. She was brain dead on arrival. Her ignant assed family have spent enough tax payers dollars. SHE IS DEAD.... can't we let it go?

I guess not.

TF
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2005 08:39 pm
The freepers are having some trouble putting the right spin on this.

"Where did those xrays of broken bones we were told about go to?"

and I like this one

Quote:
I didn't get a chance to observe the autopsy,


Oh yeah, they'll invite everyone by for the autopsy.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1423508/posts
0 Replies
 
JustanObserver
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2005 08:49 pm
ehBeth wrote:

Oh yeah, they'll invite everyone by for the autopsy.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1423508/posts



Holy crap. Thanks for the link, EhBeth. I thought I've seen some crazy comments from conservatives here... but the freerepublic people are an entirely different brand of loons. They don't even try to be rational.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2005 08:56 pm
It's worth checking in at freerepublic once in a while, JOA.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2005 09:00 pm
Ain't the kinda like bangin' yer head against the wall to remind yerself of how much it hurts?
0 Replies
 
thethinkfactory
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2005 09:02 pm
That is fairly amazing.

"Here is a black sheet of paper - the spectrometer and four experts say it is black'"

Reply:

'SEE I TOLD YOU IT WAS WHITE!!!!'



Dear god...

TF
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2005 11:29 pm
The brain was indeed "liquified", in a sense.

The reports issued at the time said that large chunks of Terri's brain, once filled with grey matter, were now gone and replaced with pools of spinal cord fluid.

Terris' brain was half size, but her skull remained full size. Is there anything in the autopsy which said the empty parts were not filled with spinal cord fluid?

I am just going to reprint this post to remind us all of what was really being said.

Cycloptichorn wrote:


We know that certain parts of the brain control cognition and thought. We know that Terri doesn't have those parts of her brain any longer.

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/images/schiavo_ct_scan.jpg

Cerebrocrat wrote:
Quote:

But there's something being lost in this discussion of brain imaging methods. The fact that an MRI would give a better structural picture of Terri Schiavo's brain does not at all mean that the existing CAT scan isn't good enough for present purposes. I see much serious armchair scan-reading in this thread that signals ignorance of the subject. Let me tell you: if you are sufficiently familiar with brains and brain images, you do not need an MRI to tell you how severely the brain in the pictured CAT scan is damaged, nor do you need to see more slices than the one depicted here. This single image shows a very severely damaged brain. The large "blue blobs" in the middle are ventricles, also present in healthy brains (you can see the two little dark crescent shapes in the brain on the right) that have expanded to such a large size because the overall brain volume is so low. Cranial space that would otherwize have been filled by gray matter is now filled with cerebrospinal fluid. And yes, that's what the blue space is: cerebrospinal fluid that is filling up space left behind by necrotic brain tissue that has been scavenged and removed by the body. The white squiggly things are white matter - connective tracts that have the loose, uncoiled look about them that they do because, again, the grey matter that once compressed them is no longer there, so they "float" loosely in CSF. The gigantic ventricles, expanded white matter, and undifferentiated blue space in that scan all point to the same thing: massive loss of grey matter in the cerebral cortex. You don't need an MRI to tell you that, it's clearly visible in the CAT scan.

It is true that given the poor resolution of this image, it's possible that some cortical tissue has been spared. But that doesn't matter. Whatever wisps of cortex we might be missing in this image are not enough to sustain behaviors that could differentiate Terri Schiavo from any other vertebrate. All the neural equipment you need to do ocular following and emotional responses is subcortical. All the neural equipment you need to be a self-aware, reasoning, behaving human being is cortical. And since i gather this image was made some time ago, the present condition of the brain can only be worse.

There is no way any qualified brain doctor or scientist could look at this image and suggest that significant recovery of function is possible. The fact that we could have all this discussion on the subject is a triumph of politics over science. Tragic for Terri Schiavo, and really for us all.


Cycloptichorn


Again, is there any part of the autopsy which contradicts this report here?

While "liquify" generally means having something entirely turn to mush, having chunks totalling half the volume of the brain disappear and be replaced by spinal cord fluid would meet the definition of "liquified" for most people, I would think.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 02:10 am
Lash wrote:
I dunno. Ask one of the people who kept saying, "Her brain is liquified..."


Lash, have you let your scriptwriter go? Your postings seem to be getting worse and worse. Better hire another one quick!
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 03:27 am
As has been noted, the family won't leave this one alone:

LARGO, Fla.(AP) An autopsy that found Terri Schiavo suffered from severe and irreversible brain-damage has done nothing to sway her parents' position that she deserved to live and may have gotten better with therapy.

The long-awaited report Wednesday found Schiavo's brain had shrunk to about half the normal size for a woman her age when she died March 31 after her feeding tube was disconnected. The autopsy also determined she was blind.

Bob and Mary Schindler disputed the results, insisting their daughter interacted with them and tried to speak. Their attorney said the family plans to discuss the autopsy with other medical experts and may take some unspecified legal action.

"We knew all along that Terri was profoundly brain damaged," said Schiavo's brother, Bobby Schindler. "We simply wanted to bring her home and care for her. It all goes back to this quality of life."

The findings vindicated Schiavo's husband in his long and vitriolic battle with his in-laws that engulfed the courts, Congress and the White House and divided the country. Michael Schiavo and court-appointed doctors have said she had no hope of recovery. She died at age 41.

The autopsy also found no evidence that Terri Schiavo was strangled or otherwise abused before her sudden 1990 collapse _ countering allegations by the Schindlers that she was abused by her husband.

Yet medical examiners could not say for certain what caused the collapse, long thought to have been brought on by an eating disorder.

George Felos, attorney for Michael Schiavo, said the findings back up their contentions made "for years and years" that Terri Schiavo had no hope of recovery. He said Michael Schiavo plans to release autopsy photographs of her shrunken brain.

"Mr. Schiavo has received so much criticism throughout this case that I'm certain there's a part of him that was pleased to hear these results and the hard science behind them," Felos said.

The Schindlers fought their son-in-law in court over their daughter's fate for nearly seven years, battling to the end with conservatives at their side.


(The source is the Associated Press--this article was in the news list at my ISP, so i cannot link it.)
0 Replies
 
thethinkfactory
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 05:58 am
Allright ALL sarcasm off:

How, exactly, do humans look at a report like that and simply state that she was 'brain damged'? Will? Faith? Stupidity? I simply wonder how humans can consistently fool themselves so completely. Serious replies only please.

TF
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 06:11 am
I would say knowing the names and functonality of the seperate parts would be of immense aid.
0 Replies
 
thethinkfactory
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 06:49 am
So... ignorance then? Doesn't it - after 9 years or so have to be deliberate ignorance?

TF
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 07:09 am
I imagine once you mentally and emotionally commit yourself to the notion that your daughter/sister really does have a part of her that is functioning as some sort of mental life, it becomes extremely hard, over the years, to reverse oneself.

Even so, it might have happened if the rightwing had not jumped in and given so much reinforcement. Without all these people telling the Schindlers what they so desperately wanted to believe, at some point the sheer weight of all the medical evidence might have reluctantly brought them around.

But with all these people gathering around you and telling you how you MUST fight on, that wasn't going to happen.
0 Replies
 
thethinkfactory
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 09:10 am
Off topic (sort of):

I want to retract my previous statements that alluded to the "facts" that Terry Shiavo induced this state on her own diet trends. It appears this was baseless.

My bad. Too lashings for me!

TF
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 10:05 am
Well, duh...you can find on blogs, forums and other unofficial news sources something about Schiavo's brain being partially or half-liquified, many times with the word "if" attached. As a matter of fact, medical sources sometimes refer to the loss of brain cells as the celss being liquified. Intimating that any of the sources stated that her entire brain was liquified is silly.
0 Replies
 
Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 11:15 am
Bottom line: People believe what they want to believe.

The part of the autopsy that I found most chilling was that her visual centers had been destroyed--yet the family and their supporters are still insisting that Terry's eyes were following that balloon.

A local letter-to-the-editor explained that we either had to believe that those brutal, cold scientists had an ax to grind and therefore lied in the autopsy records--or that Terry's loving, caring, devoted family and friends had been lying all along for years and years and years.

People believe what they want to believe.
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 11:26 am
noddy, lying is too strong a word for me; i'll just say that people were mistaken. they spent hours with her, and once in a long while, her eye would track something, prompting them to believe that she was responding. in hindsight, it's more like a broken clock being accurate twice a day, strictly coincidence, but it's human nature to grasp at straws, rather than come to terms with loss.
0 Replies
 
thethinkfactory
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 11:36 am
Noddy24 wrote:
Bottom line: People believe what they want to believe.

The part of the autopsy that I found most chilling was that her visual centers had been destroyed--yet the family and their supporters are still insisting that Terry's eyes were following that balloon.

A local letter-to-the-editor explained that we either had to believe that those brutal, cold scientists had an ax to grind and therefore lied in the autopsy records--or that Terry's loving, caring, devoted family and friends had been lying all along for years and years and years.

People believe what they want to believe.


Noddy:

This is where I lock up - how are you sure that the statment that 'people believe what they want to believe' is not simply what you want to believe?

It seems self referentially incoherent.

TF
0 Replies
 
Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 11:55 am
yitwail--


"Lying" isn't my word, but the word chosen by an ardent defender of keeping Terry on life support. I feel that the family was prone to wistful thinking rather than taking a rational approach to Terry's condition.


thethinkfactory--

My belief systems requires examining facts including unpalatable facts. This is not true of all belief systems.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but not all opinions deserve to be taken seriously--some opinions are more grounded than other opinions.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
GAFFNEY: Whose side is Obama on? - Discussion by gungasnake
 
Copyright © 2021 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 11/27/2021 at 05:37:34