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True Religion

 
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Nov, 2019 10:28 pm
@vikorr,
Add to problems with comparison in or rape report rates & divorce rates - the issue of Honour Killings, which would affect both reported rape rates, and divorce rates.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/honor-killing <names India/Pakistan and Middle East the prime areas>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

Places where 'honour killings' occur without doubt affects the report rape & divorce rates in those places. Many simply won't take the risk.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Nov, 2019 01:54 am
@HabibUrrehman,
I don't see anybody here claiming anything about 'Western values promoting the rights of women'. What I see is evidence that many muslims denigrate women despite what is written in the Koran. Your presence here is prompted by such 'bad press' which motivates you to attempt a damage limitation exercise.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/politics-and-religion/article/men-muslims-and-attitudes-toward-gender-inequality/2DA6EE1D7F5A117A8FFBFC2AD8699536
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Nov, 2019 02:33 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
Rightly or wrongly, westerners views of many Islamic countries treatment of women is very negative. Rightly or wrongly, the same appears true in reverse.


You pretty much gave the answer I would have given in the quote above. The reason I gave those statistics is because Fresco holds Islam responsible for social problems in third world countries. I just wanted to show him the mirror. There are good and bad in every religion, that does not make religion bad.
HabibUrrehman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 12 Nov, 2019 02:37 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
Staistics are irrelevent to first hand experience.

Are you the same guy who used statistics to prove that Muslims have not win enough Nobel prizes? Be careful, sometimes your own arguments can fire back. Anyways brother, I am not here to prove who is right and who is wrong. I sincerely invite you to read Quran and if you have questions on its teaches then we can have discussion on that. All the best!
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Nov, 2019 02:56 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
I don't see anybody here claiming anything about 'Western values promoting the rights of women'.


You started this debate my friend by claiming that Muslims don't provide equal right to women. You rejected Islamic point of women about women before I even presented, that's the level of ignorance I am dealing with.
I only showed you what you did not see in your own backyard and now you have admitted that Western values don't provide equal right to women. Thanks for admitting that.

Reality is that about 75% of those who are accepting Islam in the West are women.
https://clarionproject.org/staggering-numbers-women-converting-islam/
Ask yourself why? May be watch some conversion stories to find the answers.

Quote:
What I see is evidence that many muslims denigrate women despite what is written in the Koran.


Exactly what I have been saying. Quran does not teach what some Muslims practice, it is more of their culture than religion. Arranged marriages and honor killing is common in Hindus as well who live in the same part of the world where Muslims do similar things. It is more of the culture of that region than religion.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Nov, 2019 12:16 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
You pretty much gave the answer I would have given in the quote above. The reason I gave those statistics is because Fresco holds Islam responsible for social problems in third world countries. I just wanted to show him the mirror. There are good and bad in every religion, that does not make religion bad
Fair enough.

Strangely, I don't recall Fresco being so inarticulate previously.

I would have said of religions:
- they contribute to a direction of thought in societies they are dominant in
- if people get rewarded (by social status or otherwise) for showing how righteous they are by pointing out how much of a sinner another is, that will slowly become entrenched
- if as that becomes entrenched, the population comes to accept denigration or violence or similar as legitimate ways of dealing with 'sinners', you are now running the gauntlet of acquiescence through silence...which while affecting the adult population, can have a profound affect on a percentage of children

In other words, religious attitudes that some people argue as harmless (or say 'show me where's the harm') I don't necessarily see as harmless, just because there's no direct evidence of harm.

I personally wonder if the reason the Catholic Church attracted so many paedophiles, is their rule against marriage for their priests.

I don't doubt that many white supremacists hate gays because of the Bible (Whereas in Ancient Greece, it wasn't a big deal, but prior to the last few decades, it was issue in the 'Christian' world)

I wonder if the reason so many Islamist terrorists shout Allahu akbar when committing their acts, is because of the Quran (I don't doubt this - I've looked over some of their literature and it is full of quotes from the Quran...rightly or wrongly, it's able to be used). but also whether rates of sympathy affect such (there are studies out there)

Fresco appears to wonder whether or not the attitudes he sees, are born of the readings of the Quran (leaning on the side of believing they are). I know several Australian women who went over to Dubai to work, have gone over to Dubai, report back that Muslim men are the most sex mad men they've ever run into (perhaps only around western women, so perhaps a loosely related situation to banning marriage for priests), similar stories from here in Australia (there were pack rapes in Sydney), and the rapes in Cologne, and the rapes in England that were covered by British authorities for 2 years, and repeated stories of women being castigated for 'immodest dress' and being imprisoned for being raped.

This isn't by the way, meant to be a 'slam' of Islam, but a picture of some of the problems that can come up with religion itself is interpreted in an intolerant way (so the mass rapes 'women who wear scantilly clad clothing are asking for it' attitude, being suspicious of the morals of the woman over that of the man, suspicions that a large percentage view them as property, coupled with suspected underlying disrespect of women in general). Perhaps, or perhaps that's just what the press reports...but first hand reports, or indisputable reports, do get back to westerners that support such views.

And of course, you gave a decent argument for the reverse.

The thing is, religion has a tendency to promote and sustain the more extreme versions of ideologies. That was one of the things that drove Christianity to separate state & religion.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Nov, 2019 01:27 am
@HabibUrrehman,
You just flunked Logic 101. !

Your premise about Islamic scientific superiority, has nothing to do with your premise about Islamic treatment of women, except for your claim that they both originate in your 'holy writ'. I have no first hand experience of the first and therefore quote significant statistics. I have years of experience of Islamic male chauvinism, and therefore need no statistics for the second.
The onus is on you to substantiate your 'superiority' claim, on evidential grounds, not on ideological grounds, and your own choice of residence in non Islamic state is the evidential context in which your claim will be judged, not on reliance on paliative word magic.

(The 'responsiblity' issue you falsely ascribe to me of course requires no comment!)


fresco
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Nov, 2019 02:07 am
@vikorr,
BTW. I don't 'lean' in any direction as far as the Koran or any other 'holy writ' is concerned. Sexual inequality is in my opinion largely attributable to inherited primate behaviour and tends to be cross cultural, as indeed does tribal aggression in general.
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Nov, 2019 03:28 am
@fresco,
I personally don't like the generalised term sexual inequality. It is rather vague, and way too many people mistake 'we aren't the same' and 'we aren't equal'. The genders aren't the same, full stop. We have plenty in common, and plenty of differences. It is therefore very normal that there will be differences in what sort of jobs genders are attracted to, etc. If people want 'equality within the context of the differences', then I am all for that (that is to say, don't shoot for 50/50 representation where one gender or the other isn't, as a whole, particularly interested). Certainly in terms of speaking ones mind on equal terms, being treated according to your ability, attitudes on state of dress, etc should be equal between the genders.

As for it being largely primate behaviour - I'd agree, but also point out that the attitudes of populations is capable of having broadscale influence in directions contrary to genetic drives - obviously despite underlying genetics. Hence one of the reasons for this type of discussion.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Nov, 2019 03:35 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Sexual inequality is in my opinion largely attributable to inherited primate behaviour


So you're still blaming the church.
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Nov, 2019 05:30 am
@izzythepush,
Laughing Good one !
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Nov, 2019 06:27 am
@fresco,
Thank you.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Nov, 2019 06:29 am
@vikorr,
Thanks for that one.
The idea that men and women are the same and therefore must be treated the same is how we got to the current disjointed dynamics between the sexes, at least in the US.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Nov, 2019 01:56 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
In other words, religious attitudes that some people argue as harmless (or say 'show me where's the harm') I don't necessarily see as harmless, just because there's no direct evidence of harm.


This is precisely true. Quran actually talked about it.

Quote:
Then We sent following their footsteps Our messengers and followed [them] with Jesus, the son of Mary, and gave him the Gospel. And We placed in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy and monasticism, which they innovated; We did not prescribe it for them except [that they did so] seeking the approval of Allah . But they did not observe it with due observance. So We gave the ones who believed among them their reward, but many of them are defiantly disobedient.


I have bolded the relevant portion. Also notice that this verse said that Allah has put the compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed Jesus PBUH.

Quote:
I wonder if the reason so many Islamist terrorists shout Allahu akbar when committing their acts, is because of the Quran (I don't doubt this - I've looked over some of their literature and it is full of quotes from the Quran...rightly or wrongly, it's able to be used). but also whether rates of sympathy affect such (there are studies out there)


Your key word is rightly or wrongly. I have said this before that read Quran at your own so that you can understand the context as well. If you still have questions on any verses then we can discuss those.

Quote:
Fresco appears to wonder whether or not the attitudes he sees, are born of the readings of the Quran (leaning on the side of believing they are). I know several Australian women who went over to Dubai to work, have gone over to Dubai, report back that Muslim men are the most sex mad men they've ever run into (perhaps only around western women, so perhaps a loosely related situation to banning marriage for priests), similar stories from here in Australia (there were pack rapes in Sydney), and the rapes in Cologne, and the rapes in England that were covered by British authorities for 2 years, and repeated stories of women being castigated for 'immodest dress' and being imprisoned for being raped.


Personally I would not speak on Fresco's behalf but may be you know him better. But anyways I understood what you are saying and this is probably a more civilized and an indirect way to blame Islam for acts of so called Muslims. Rape is far above and hideous crime to adultery. The punishment is death for the rapist and for any others who may have helped him to commit the act. It is not the same as Zina of two consenting adults, either married or not. The lashing of the people who committed Zina is only applicable to the unmarried. If one or both are married then stoning will be the punishment. Now I am not sure how that promotes rapes? If one follows Quran and Shariah law then he/she should actually be miles away from such heinous crimes.

Quote:
so the mass rapes 'women who wear scantilly clad clothing are asking for it' attitude, being suspicious of the morals of the woman over that of the man, suspicions that a large percentage view them as property, coupled with suspected underlying disrespect of women in general


The primary reason for which Islam promotes women to cover their bodies is to promote modesty. When a woman doesn't wear a covering, she may receive unnecessary attention. This is part of the social system of Islam. And these teachings are not just in Islam, one can find it in Christianity as well as in Judaism.

Quote:
The thing is, religion has a tendency to promote and sustain the more extreme versions of ideologies. That was one of the things that drove Christianity to separate state & religion.


Religion (Islam) is there to discipline our lives based on Divine principles.
If someone misinterprets Islam or any other religion to promote hate and evil in the society then it has nothing to do with the religion, the evil is within those who misuse religion to gain wealth or power.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Nov, 2019 02:01 pm
@fresco,
We can agree to disagree.

Honestly I don't see any logic in your arguments and there is no point to debate with someone who has nothing but hate for Islam. If you come with a neutral mind set then we can talk about any issue you want me to discuss. Until then have a nice day!
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Nov, 2019 02:03 pm
@vikorr,
That's pretty much my answer as well.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Nov, 2019 08:30 pm
It amazed me and have been amazing me from the age of 11 or so some 60 years ago how adults can give credit to ideas that only deserve the same level of respect as the worship of the old gods such as Zeus or Jupiter or the tens of thousand tribal gods that has long been forgotten.

I never had lost the feelings that those claiming to be true believers have got to be pulling my legs as no rational adults can be believers in such nonsense.

Come on guys please stop pretending that you are believers in such nonsense.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Nov, 2019 10:16 pm
@BillRM,
You believe in something too, don’t you?
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Nov, 2019 10:59 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
Personally I would not speak on Fresco's behalf but may be you know him better
As I said "Fresco appears to wonder whether or not the attitudes he sees, are born of the readings of the Quran"

Individual statements shouldn't be read in isolation - so it appears to me that was the gist of what Fresco was getting it.

Quote:
The primary reason for which Islam promotes women to cover their bodies is to promote modesty. When a woman doesn't wear a covering, she may receive unnecessary attention. This is part of the social system of Islam. And these teachings are not just in Islam, one can find it in Christianity as well as in Judaism.
I read a book once that claimed most of the more 'severe' Islamic forms of dress for women were first worn by Christian women. It was a while back now, and I don't recall which particular group was given to wearing such.

In the 70s, many Christian women still wore scarves to church over their heads.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Nov, 2019 02:00 am
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

You believe in something too, don’t you?


I do not believe in the supernatural be it the old or the current gods who at their whims break the laws of nature or even the lessor beings such as the tooth fairy.
 

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