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True Religion

 
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Nov, 2019 12:00 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
I read a book once that claimed most of the more 'severe' Islamic forms of dress for women were first worn by Christian women. It was a while back now, and I don't recall which particular group was given to wearing such.

In the 70s, many Christian women still wore scarves to church over their heads.


That's true. This goes back to my original argument that some of the other religions found today, such as Christianity and Judaism, are the remnants of the religion brought by the prophets in their time, which was Islam. The fundament tenants of God's law remained same which focus on morality based on Divine wisdom.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Nov, 2019 12:01 pm
@BillRM,
That's the choice you made and if that's good for you then keep believing in what you believe.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Nov, 2019 02:19 pm
Quote:
1600s: RICH WOMEN ARE MADE TO WEAR HIJABS
Historians argue that during the Ottoman Empire and across the Middle East, male scholars began producing huge volumes of Islamic scripture and legal works to regain the patriarchal power that they’d lost in the centuries following Muhammad’s death. As a result, the hijab was deemed representative of female modesty and piety – while also symbolising the upper class. Poorer women, who worked as labourers, were able to avoid wearing it because of its impracticality while farming – meaning that ‘a veiled woman silently announced that her husband was rich enough to keep her idle.’


Read more at https://www.marieclaire.co.uk/reports/timeline-of-dress-codes-men-telling-women-what-to-wear-295043#2jmoRcewXrzxWZly.99
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Nov, 2019 05:34 pm
@fresco,
Thanks for sharing this Fresco! I hope you find article below helpful:

https://thethinkingmuslim.com/2015/12/30/evidences-for-the-obligation-of-a-muslim-womans-headscarf-khimar-outer-garment-jilbaab/
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2019 01:16 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Good article aimed at rationalising endemic primate male chauvinism.
What else would we expect of indoctrinated religionists with their 'ticket to heaven' at stake ? Wink
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2019 10:51 am
@fresco,
That's right my friend. Those who believe in life after death and God certainly have a very different POV from those who are atheists. When we have different POV, we will have the differences. What is good in my POV may not be good in yours and vice versa.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2019 12:56 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
I understand from that, that endemic male chauvinism is 'good' for you !

HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2019 06:12 pm
@fresco,
If you think that's male chauvinism then there is nothing I can do to change your point of view. My mother is a woman and love her more than anything, my sisters are women and they are my pride and I respect their opinion, my wife is my life partner and mother of my kids and her pleasure is more important to me than anything else, my daughter is a woman and I will do anything to put a smile on her face. Anyone else who is woman is my sister in humanity and I respect her. That's how I view the opposite gender and now if you call it male chauvinism then that's your wrong understanding of Islam.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Nov, 2019 02:01 am
@HabibUrrehman,
....and do your female relative sit with you in the mosque on Fridays? If not, then that's an aspect of indoctrinated male chauvinism .
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Nov, 2019 11:07 am
@fresco,
The meeting together, mixing, and intermingling of men and women in one place, the crowding of them together, and the revealing and exposure of women to men are prohibited by the Law of Islam (Shari'ah). These acts are prohibited because they are among the causes for fitnah (temptation or trial which implies evil consequences), the arousing of desires, and the committing of indecency and wrongdoing.

It’s about time for people to recognize that mixing provides a fertile breeding-ground for social poisons to invade and take over our society without anyone ever realizing that it is mixing which is the cause. Mixing is the prime element which promotes evil temptations which results in sexual relationships outside the marriage, sex before getting married, rapes and all the evils which free society promotes. As a result homes are wrecked and hearts are broken. Islam not only prohibits adulatory but also gives us means to safeguard against such evils.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Nov, 2019 11:39 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Yes. As already explained to you, a major function of religion is to attempt to regulate primate sexuality by evoking 'divine' sanctions. Medieval religiosity has the problem of justifying chauvinistic medieval sexual rationalities in a modern world. Hence the upsurge in Islamic fundamentalism as a primative violent reaction to modernity and global emancipation movements.
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Nov, 2019 07:38 pm
@fresco,
Alright, I'd wade in here:

My mother came from third world conditions. Within her village, women regularly did not wear tops. This is the same in many island nations where extreme poverty prevails.

The thing is:
- this wasn't considered immodest. It was normal attire
- it didn't drive the men to wife swap etc that you appear to believe it does
- the village was communal, and it still didn't drive men & women to divorce, sleep around etc.

It seems that the more something is banned, the more 'tempting' it becomes - which would explain why western women visiting the middle east have reported muslim men as being the most sex mad men they have come across...

...on the evidence then, your views create a self fulfilling condition, not based in reality, but in belief.

And I wonder why it is women who are forced to be the subject of such modesty rules (or for whom, only women have the rules enforced), or segregation rules (in this case, segregation through staying at home). Yes, yes, I know, you will argue they are not forced...and many won't be (probably even a majority)...while others will comply because of the abuse they will cop if they don't, and in some areas, being enforced by sharia courts...hence the use of the words 'forced' (ie. like it or you'll have to do it anyway).

Here in the west, you will see Muslim men wearing western clothing while their wives cover themselves (in some cases with only the eyes revealed). This type of behaviour is plain double standards. This one behaviour creates a LOT of ill will and judgement towards Muslims. But added to the Sharia rulings that make it into the news, you will find that very few western people think women are empowered by such (that is in relation to western mindsets - I attended a lecture by a Muslim woman once, who said it was empowering).

On the flip side, what you say about women being sexualised in the west is very correct. The younger ones appear to be competing more and more in regards to this, with social media and smart phones having 'revolutionised' the way this attitude affects young people. There is argument that 'empowerment' has ended up in a bad place.

The thing is, both extremes I see as bad.

Quote:
Mixing is the prime element which promotes evil temptations which results in.... rapes and all the evils which free society promotes
This is utter bullshit. And yes, this sentence deserves the use of such words. Rapists all make a choice that - which remains utterly their responsibility. And no, I haven't removed anything from context - it's the same sentence with the structure including rapes in the results.

Quote:
As a result homes are wrecked and hearts are broken. Islam not only prohibits adulatory but also gives us means to safeguard against such evils.
Other than such already shown to be incorrect (and where it is not , self fulfilling) -we are able to get over a broken heart, and actions show the kind of person they married, and offers the opportunity to find someone more trustworthy-

On the flip side, an empowered world allows women to:
- leave abusive husbands
- support themselves and their children if they leave abusive husbands (many won't leave without this ability)
- not expose their children to the relationship abuse / domestic violence exhibited by their parents (which around 80% will then end up in similar relationships), and enable the carer to take the children into a healthy environment

And allows couples to separate if they have been unhappy for so long without being able to fix the issues causing unhappiness (other than it being better for such couples to separated, teaching children that you do not have to stay in long term unhappy marriages, if you have also taught them that you should do everything you honestly could to rectify the matter, is a good thing).

That is to say - I do not see a broken heart as the end of things, but as the start of a new journey, a likely something even better. I see the primary thing we can teach children in life as being: how to have healthy self esteem, and how to be happy. Everything else that is good in life, will flow from those two places, enhance their lives, and enhance others lives.

My observation of religion is that, being overly rule based, it doesn't teach children these, but that many people eventually find them. My observation of Australia is that it is piss poor at teaching such, and only a low percentage of people truly find such. This though, is a reflection of Australia now, than 30 years back, and a reflection of cities as opposed to towns.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Nov, 2019 07:54 pm
@fresco,
I don’t want to get into never ending argument my friend. If that’s what you think about Muslims and Islam then that’s your opinion and all I can say is that I respectfully disagree with you opinion.
Peace!
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Nov, 2019 02:37 am
@HabibUrrehman,
My observations are based on personal experience with Muslims who have chosing to live in the West. Some comments could equally apply to orthodox Jews, who have their own share of marital problems, but they at least know the folly of trying to proselytize.
'Peace' comes from the art of compromise, not from assertion of dogma.
I hope you find it !
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Nov, 2019 02:43 am
@vikorr,
Thankyou for those balanced comments.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 05:46 pm
@fresco,
Good and bad are in every religion and in every ideology including atheism. Would that make the religion or ideology good or bad? I have yet to see any verse in Quran which promotes what you claim. Quran places great importance on moral values and roles of men and women in the society. Don't confuse culture with the teachings of the religion please.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2019 01:04 am
@HabibUrrehman,
'Good and bad' are simplistic terms beloved of Donald Trump and religious pedants.
I suggest you enhance your education by reading up on the subject of ethics.
Try for example, Berlin's 'Two Concepts of Liberty'.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2019 01:48 am
@HabibUrrehman,
BTW I acknowledge and welcome your 'compromise gesture', and by using the phrase 'every religion' you admit that Islam is no different to the others (contrary to your opening thesis).
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2019 04:23 pm
@fresco,
My opening statement is very clear and I still stand with that "Islam is the only true religion from the beginning."
My that opening statement has nothing to do with good or bad followers. The battle between good and bad is part of our test in this life. Let's suppose we get rid of all religions, will there be an end to crimes or social injustice or desire to control others and desire to have power? War between good and evil has always been there and will remain there until this world comes to an end.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Nov, 2019 05:14 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
No. The 'test' is part of the mythology of religions, of which Islam is merely an example. The only real 'test' cognate primates called 'humans' face, is how to find 'meaning' in a potentially meaningless existence. All religions serve as a palliative to the suspicion that Shakespeare was correct when he said..."Life is a tale told by an idiot....full of sound and fury ... signifying nothing".
0 Replies
 
 

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