french sense of humour ;)

littlek, excellent, perhaps the "trust funds" of oil revenues for the people of Iraq will equate with the "trust funds" of revenues for native americans!!!! we still are campaigning the uncivil war against our own.

AU, just noticed your post above. I believe it is still a highly emotional subject to many, but to hate ALL germans? Germans in general? That I cannot bring myself to understand. I am appalled by what their one government did at one time, but I am equally appalled by the actions of other governments at other times, not hating their people or governments today for that. for what exactly is supposed the current german government to do? are they personnally responsible or guilty for the second world war? i think not.
one little note, the slavery is not going unnoticed and there are quite a few programs at place trying to tackle it, with and outside of the UN. Surely part of the problem may be cultural/historic/domestic social reasons. But it is also related to many other problems, the international economic structure - the vicious spiral of debt, large non-transparent MNCs at place whose practices are difficult to control, and many other problems that are not easy to tackle, by anyone. i know you don't hold the un in much respect, but pointing out every lack of success, or not strong enough success, is not a constructive criticism. unfortunately (for analysts) there is no similar organizatioin we could compare the work of the un to and since we, humans, are only able to evaluate performance or quality on the basis of comparisons, we may remain on the level of arguing forever.

Just checking in for now with another European perspective. As a Brit, with many friends from both France and America, I think boycotts on either side are ridiculous.

The governments of both nations have taken extreme positions in relation to the UN. Classical International Relations behaviour in the old "billard ball" sense - nations bouncing off each other for effect!

France has long held a highly nationalistic resentment of US cultural and economic imperialism. The fact that there is now a suspicion of such motivations taking the form of military imperialism lead that nation to raise its voice agains what it sees as unjust. [Note, I say "suspicion"].

This is all about free speech on both sides...France's right to protest should not be belittled, nor should a reasonable justification for war in Iraq.

My suspicion is that the timing is all to do with use of forces in the Middle East at a time of year which is neither Ramadan nor Summer (too hot, particularly for anti-chemical suits). If there should be a political will for the actions to take place sometime, now may just be the right time.

So, rather uncomfortably, I continue to sit on the fence. KP

dagmaraka
Yes my feelings about the Germans is indeed a very emotional one. I should note that I did not initiate that discussion but just reluctantly responded to after the statement was made and repeated.

i thought it followed from the german boycott of american goods, and you mentioned that germans with their history should not assume the moral right to boycott anything. nevermind, it really is not important who started what, only what was said.
i just feel the need to remind that not ALL americans were fighting for the freedom of the slaves. i thought the southerners were quite on the opposing side. are they less of americans today? yet i would not go about telling the world i hate them all. that is all i meant to say. but hey, i can understand if the topic is very emotional to you. if we agree that we will disagree and as you admitted that it touches you personnaly, perhaps we should close it for good. for only rational debate is meaningful in a written exchange, i believe.

see PM

Dagmar

.

If they were would there have been a civil war? Maybe at this point I should remind you that the ancestors of a large percentage the present day American citizens had not as yet emigrated to the States. In addition many of the northern states had already abolished slavery.

right, that is exactly the point - civil war, 2 parties at war. not one, two. one for slavery, one against. eventually the ones against won, but that did not change the reality for the african americans for long time to come after the war. of course not all present americans were here, but that has nothing to do with it. the crucial thing to me is that if you want to make a legacy out of history, you cannot look at one side of it only, the pleasant, convenient side and disregard the other part. what i said is that both parties at war were americans, right? so you cannot say that america lead the war against slavery. lead the war against whom? well, america again. that's all. northerns states are but a part of america. i am not doubting the principles of freedom and democracy that came from the historical struggle of this country, as i said elsewhere i hold the lessons of american history in great respect. what i am against is black and white vision. america good, germany bad, when you can find painful nasty history of terrorizing large groups of people in both. that, of course are only examples. as i said you could look at most countries and discover some nasty past. and in my humble opinion, you (meaning one) should. we have to learn from our past mistakes, it keeps us more humble and appreciative of human struggles everywhere.

au, saying that not all americans were here yet at the time of the civil war is exactly the same point Dag was making about the difference between gemany then and germany now.

littlek, Dagmar
Let's close this subject with this. As long as the generation that the participated and supported the insanity of Nazism is still alive the seeds of it exist.
Further trying to equate German society and history with that of America is equating apples and oranges.
Germany's society and character has been forged over centuries with very little if any outside influence. While American society is multicultural and in flux. It is composed of waves of immigrants from all over the globe. And I should note they are still coming. The inscription on the Statue of Liberty says it all. "Give me your tired your poor"

I'll give you the fact that the people directly involved with nazi germany are still alive and that that fact makes nazi germany unique among the other histories.

Who said anything about America leading the war against slavery. The question of slavery in the US was settled by a civil war costing hundreds of thousands of American lives.
I should note that slavery per se was not an American invention but has been a fact of life since the beginning of recorded history and as I have said before still is in many parts of the world. As a matter of fact it is something we inherited along with freedom when we broke away from England. Further in the realm of time it was short lived after independence.

Oh, au, why so defensive? I am not disagreeing with you. All I meant to get across is what you say exactly: the abuse of a large part of population is part of the history, inherited along with freedom.
Both in American AND in German history. I never said Americans invented slavery or were the worst villains ever. I only objected to the 'selective memory' that seemed to have taken place on this thread higher up.

I'll stick with:

Cars from Germany
Cheese from Wisconsin
Wine from California, Oregon, and Washington State.
Beer from the closest microbrewery.

I really don't need anything French, though.

i'd opt for cheese and wine from france anytime, for sure. even if it was france that invaded iraq and i was all in uproar about it, it would not be the french farmer doing so. i do not boycott american products despite my views, why on earth would i?

dagmarka,

I agree entirely with you last post.

The French also have as much entitlement to their opinion as the Americans, or what is the principle of free speech all about?

KP

Off-topic: Ask the Dixiechicks!

frolic - I don't get your meaning? Am I missing something? KP

Pretzels
250 preztels huh? Mmmm.... beer.
Do the French have any good beer?

Maybe culture clash is just all this is.

The French have very strong cultural identity. They cherish, hold, and preserve their heritage, language, style, beliefs. Maybe that's why melting pot victims hate them so much. Those ... individuals!



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Don't know if was in British news, but the band Dixie Chicks took a great deal of criticism lately for publicly saying things against Bush and the war. They were hung out to dry, just for saying their mind. Freely.

It seems to me boycotts end up hurting the wrong people. Or hasn't anybody noticed? c.i.