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Pentagon: "Ok, ok... Some soldiers DID disgrace the Koran"

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JustanObserver
 
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 06:35 pm
Pentagon details mishandling of QuranSOURCE
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 3,443 • Replies: 71
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 06:41 pm
Ah well, at least we gave the detainees their very own copies of the Quran so they could desecrate them too.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 07:11 pm
Quote:
Hood said in a written statement released Friday evening, along with the new details, that his investigation "revealed a consistent, documented policy of respectful handling of the Quran dating back almost 2½ years."

Hood said that of nine mishandling cases that were studied in detail, five were confirmed to have happened. He could not determine conclusively whether the four others took place.

He also said they found 15 cases of detainees mishandling their own Qurans. "These included using a Quran as a pillow, ripping pages out of the Quran, attempting to flush a Quran down the toilet and urinating on the Quran," Hood's report said. It offered no possible explanation for the detainees' motives.


Well, there ya go. We can now put this to rest. Finally.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 07:35 pm
I just peed on a Koran.

It made me laugh.

Contemplating a new Freedom Fries movement....
Making tampons from Koran pages. I'll make a million.

I swear. I can't stop laughing.
0 Replies
 
tommrr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 07:37 pm
Ok, guys, some of you were bad, now don't do it again. Now can we get on with life and stop acting like a book is the most important thing in the whole friggin world?
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 07:37 am
tommrr wrote:
Ok, guys, some of you were bad, now don't do it again. Now can we get on with life and stop acting like a book is the most important thing in the whole friggin world?


The first time I ever went to Washington DC I went to the National Archives and saw the founding documents that are precious to the US as a nation. My ex leaned on a glass case to get a closer look at one of them and the security officer on duty boomed at her "please don't lean on the shrine!" She backed off, not realising she had transgressed but she was very apologetic.

For a Moslem the Qu'ran isn't ever a reproduction, it's the living word of God, it exists in Heaven. Any Qu'ran has to be respected.

The Qu'ran to a Moslem isn't just a book just as the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution aren't just documents behind a glass case.

It's just about respecting the artifacts of someone's culture.

If that doesn't matter to you then not much more can be said.
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 07:47 am
The whole thing smacks of distraction to me. Folks can get worked up on one side or the other of it, and ignore other events in the U.S. and abroad that should get more attention. Revelations of torture by the Chicago police department got nary a mention a few years back, but this is worthy of close scrutiny.

Ugh.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 07:47 am
Good perspective, goodfielder
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 07:50 am
goodfielder wrote:
tommrr wrote:
Ok, guys, some of you were bad, now don't do it again. Now can we get on with life and stop acting like a book is the most important thing in the whole friggin world?


The first time I ever went to Washington DC I went to the National Archives and saw the founding documents that are precious to the US as a nation. My ex leaned on a glass case to get a closer look at one of them and the security officer on duty boomed at her "please don't lean on the shrine!" She backed off, not realising she had transgressed but she was very apologetic.

For a Moslem the Qu'ran isn't ever a reproduction, it's the living word of God, it exists in Heaven. Any Qu'ran has to be respected.

The Qu'ran to a Moslem isn't just a book just as the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution aren't just documents behind a glass case.

It's just about respecting the artifacts of someone's culture.

If that doesn't matter to you then not much more can be said.


If they do not respect it themselves, how can they be so insulted when someone else doesn't?

Quote:
He also said they found 15 cases of detainees mishandling their own Qurans. "These included using a Quran as a pillow, ripping pages out of the Quran, attempting to flush a Quran down the toilet and urinating on the Quran," Hood's report said. It offered no possible explanation for the detainees' motives.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 08:08 am
goodfielder wrote:
tommrr wrote:
Ok, guys, some of you were bad, now don't do it again. Now can we get on with life and stop acting like a book is the most important thing in the whole friggin world?


The first time I ever went to Washington DC I went to the National Archives and saw the founding documents that are precious to the US as a nation. My ex leaned on a glass case to get a closer look at one of them and the security officer on duty boomed at her "please don't lean on the shrine!" She backed off, not realising she had transgressed but she was very apologetic.

For a Moslem the Qu'ran isn't ever a reproduction, it's the living word of God, it exists in Heaven. Any Qu'ran has to be respected.

The Qu'ran to a Moslem isn't just a book just as the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution aren't just documents behind a glass case.

It's just about respecting the artifacts of someone's culture.

If that doesn't matter to you then not much more can be said.


Just because the guard said not to lean on the case doesn't mean he was protecting the documents like a Moslem would the Koran or that your ex had 'transgressed'... and as has been proven Moslem's will desecrate it as quick as anyone anyway. The guard was just saying not to lean on the glass, based on your post.

Your analogy is a poor one.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 08:26 am
COMPLETELY agreed with pdog, was going to say the same thing. Desecrating Koran, not good, but torturing an innocent taxi driver to death, REALLY not good. Which one is getting more attention?
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 08:46 am
This is becoming a very difficult war to manage when the tactics of the Administration were determined to fight with soldiers hads tied around their backs so as to "win the hearts and minds" of the "people".

When you are percieved as an occupying force, that can not happen.

Our mission was accomplished once the govt was removed and no WMD found. Get our troops home before more die due to silliness like this.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 11:31 am
Quote:
If they do not respect it themselves, how can they be so insulted when someone else doesn't?


Are you assuming that every prisoner in Gitmo is a devout Muslim? I'm sure if you distributed bibles to a bunch of prisoners in the US, you would find them put to a variety of uses, but to those who care, I think it would be a big deal. Think of all the folks in the US who get stirred up whenever someone burns a US flag somewhere in the world.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 11:35 am
Are you sure?
Quote:
... and as has been proven Moslem's will desecrate it as quick as anyone anyway.


I think it has been shown that some prisoners will desecrate a religious text. How do you know what their religions are? Maybe they are atheists. Maybe Christians. Maybe Arab Jews. Certainly the ones accused of the worst offenses are not very religious.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 11:49 am
Re: Are you sure?
engineer wrote:
Quote:
... and as has been proven Moslem's will desecrate it as quick as anyone anyway.


I think it has been shown that some prisoners will desecrate a religious text. How do you know what their religions are? Maybe they are atheists. Maybe Christians. Maybe Arab Jews. Certainly the ones accused of the worst offenses are not very religious.


A lot of items fall under the term 'desecration' when it comes to the Koran, including using one for a pillow under ones head....I doubt a stressed out religious detainee would think twice about using one for a pillow if it made them comfortable.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 12:20 pm
My point is...
Quote:
I doubt a stressed out religious detainee would think twice about using one for a pillow if it made them comfortable.


Yes, I agree. Who knows, it might be comforting to them. But my point is that we assume that all the prisoners in Gitmo are Muslim. Not all Arabs are Muslim and of those who nominally are, not all are very religious.

People here toss out comments like "They do it, so it not a big deal," "it" being whatever is the topic of the day, torture, Koran peeing, etc. and "they" being any representative of a hugh population that can be identified. It's like branding all the US military as torturers because some in the US military are. It really doesn't matter to me what "they" do in other countries, or "throughout history". I expect the US to behave with a high degree of moral and ethical standards. If "no country ever lived up to those standards", I really don't care. I expect us to. As a former military officer who visited Gitmo when it was a place for destroyers to run drills, I hate that the name is now synonomous with actions considered to be the providence of third world dictatorships.

Gitmo serves no purpose for the US other than to act as a symbol to the world that we will hold people without trial, without the opportunity to face their accusers, and without insisting that there is a decent amount of evidence that the accusations are correct. It stands there as a symbol to the US that its government will go to extreme measures to prevent detainees from falling under the juristiction of the US courts. The very thought that the US government would fear holding prisoners in the US is appalling. Right now, there is no reason for all the prisoners in Gitmo not to be sent back to Afganistan to serve whatever penal duty required. Give Gitmo back to Cuba and relegate the shameful actions of the last three years to the past.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 12:44 pm
Engineer, Exactly!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 01:14 pm
sozobe wrote:
COMPLETELY agreed with pdog, was going to say the same thing. Desecrating Koran, not good, but torturing an innocent taxi driver to death, REALLY not good. Which one is getting more attention?


Certainly not to take away from the taxi driver story.... But, one is a local event and the other is a international event. Which would we expect to get the greater attention?
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 01:17 pm
Brand X wrote:
goodfielder wrote:
tommrr wrote:
Ok, guys, some of you were bad, now don't do it again. Now can we get on with life and stop acting like a book is the most important thing in the whole friggin world?


The first time I ever went to Washington DC I went to the National Archives and saw the founding documents that are precious to the US as a nation. My ex leaned on a glass case to get a closer look at one of them and the security officer on duty boomed at her "please don't lean on the shrine!" She backed off, not realising she had transgressed but she was very apologetic.

For a Moslem the Qu'ran isn't ever a reproduction, it's the living word of God, it exists in Heaven. Any Qu'ran has to be respected.

The Qu'ran to a Moslem isn't just a book just as the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution aren't just documents behind a glass case.

It's just about respecting the artifacts of someone's culture.

If that doesn't matter to you then not much more can be said.


Just because the guard said not to lean on the case doesn't mean he was protecting the documents like a Moslem would the Koran or that your ex had 'transgressed'... and as has been proven Moslem's will desecrate it as quick as anyone anyway. The guard was just saying not to lean on the glass, based on your post.

Your analogy is a poor one.


You are making your own assumptions about what the guard thought, meant or was supposed to do. The analogy is not a poor one.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 01:27 pm
Intrepid wrote:
Brand X wrote:
goodfielder wrote:
tommrr wrote:
Ok, guys, some of you were bad, now don't do it again. Now can we get on with life and stop acting like a book is the most important thing in the whole friggin world?


The first time I ever went to Washington DC I went to the National Archives and saw the founding documents that are precious to the US as a nation. My ex leaned on a glass case to get a closer look at one of them and the security officer on duty boomed at her "please don't lean on the shrine!" She backed off, not realising she had transgressed but she was very apologetic.

For a Moslem the Qu'ran isn't ever a reproduction, it's the living word of God, it exists in Heaven. Any Qu'ran has to be respected.

The Qu'ran to a Moslem isn't just a book just as the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution aren't just documents behind a glass case.

It's just about respecting the artifacts of someone's culture.

If that doesn't matter to you then not much more can be said.


Just because the guard said not to lean on the case doesn't mean he was protecting the documents like a Moslem would the Koran or that your ex had 'transgressed'... and as has been proven Moslem's will desecrate it as quick as anyone anyway. The guard was just saying not to lean on the glass, based on your post.

Your analogy is a poor one.


You are making your own assumptions about what the guard thought, meant or was supposed to do. The analogy is not a poor one.


I'm not making an assumption...the guard said, "Please don't lean on the shrine"....engineer made the assumption that the documents were being threatened. And again, it's the way engineer worded his/her post. All the guard did was ask them not to lean on the glass...very simply.
0 Replies
 
 

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