death

aidan wrote:

And I know what I saw and what I felt and what is now true for me. If you want to hear about it - let me know.

hmmm is there such a thing as "true for me"?

Is truth subjective or objective?

Sounds like a good idea for a thread. Laughing

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In order for me to believe something, particularly something as significant as life after death, I require some evidence that it is so. I am not going to accept a theory of the structure of the universe, which this is, without evidence that it is correct. I need more than just a few anecdotes that someone almost died and thought they were approaching a bright light. Does anyone have any hard evidence, or carefully documented evidence of an afterlife?

The body certainly seems to function as a machine. Medicine treats illnesses in terms of physical cause and effect in the body. Although not all things about the body are understood, its functioning appears to be knowable. Thoughts appear to reside in the electrical and chemical activity of the brain. It would be reasonable in the absence of evidence to the contrary to suppose the body is what it appears to be - a machine - and that if the brain stops working, the thoughts stop flowing. Evidence of an afterlife, anyone?

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Bella Dea wrote:

agrote wrote:
Bella Dea wrote:
We are basically energy and matter. Energy and matter can't be destroyed, only changed. So yes, we do exist after death. Only in different form. Whether or not this is conscious, I can't say. But we do "exist" in a sense.

Doesn't energy consist of matter?

Also, what do you think makes you 'you'? You seem to be suggesting that we are just lumps of matter, and since matter cannot be destroyed, we must always exist. But when we die, we consist of completely different matter to the matter that we were born as - cells are constantly beign replaced. So does this mean that I am not the same person I was five minutes ago?

No, you aren't exactly the same as you were 5 seconds ago.

That wasn't my question. Am I the same person as I was 5 seconds ago?

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No. Every thing changes you. You opinion, your thoughts...everything is effected by your surroundings.

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That is true. But does that mean that there isn't really a me? If I'm constantly becoming different people, who the hell am I? What does 'I' mean? Where do yo udraw the line? Do I become a new person every second? Every millisecond?

Are you sure there isn't something that makes me essentially the same person throughout my life? Obviously my personality will change, and my body will change - but I'm still me, aren't I?

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Well, if you want to go there the line then becomes fuzzy. I believe in a soul. The eternal part of us. People who don't believe in the soul want proof. The only proof that can be offered at all is the science that matter and energy can't be destroyed. Which means that when we die, we change but do not go away completely. Are we the same? Absolutly not. What ARE we when we die? I have no idea. I've never died. Maybe we are just little particles floating around. Maybe we go to a place called Heaven. Maybe we have conciousness. Maybe we are simply fertilizer to make things above us grow.

But the science (for all your non-believers out there) says we do not disappear from existance. And that is my point. What we become after death I don't know. How could we know?

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Bella Dea wrote:

Well, if you want to go there the line then becomes fuzzy. I believe in a soul. The eternal part of us. People who don't believe in the soul want proof. The only proof that can be offered at all is the science that matter and energy can't be destroyed. Which means that when we die, we change but do not go away completely. Are we the same? Absolutly not. What ARE we when we die? I have no idea. I've never died. Maybe we are just little particles floating around. Maybe we go to a place called Heaven. Maybe we have conciousness. Maybe we are simply fertilizer to make things above us grow.

But the science (for all your non-believers out there) says we do not disappear from existance. And that is my point. What we become after death I don't know. How could we know?

Well, it depends what you mean by 'we.' Certainly the matter that makes up our bodies will continue to exist - but if that matter is constantly being replaced by other matter, surely 'we' are not defined as being particular collections of matter.

It's not that we will continue to exist in a different form. The matter that makes up our bodies at the time we die will continue to exist in other forms, yes. But that matter is not what we are - it can't be, since we are made up of different matter when we are born and when we die.

So science does not suggest that we continue to exist after death, unless you really do believe that your personal identity is determined by the matter that comprises your body.

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agrote wrote:

It's not that we will continue to exist in a different form. The matter that makes up our bodies at the time we die will continue to exist in other forms, yes. But that matter is not what we are - it can't be, since we are made up of different matter when we are born and when we die.

We are different people when we are born and when we die. :wink:

But you are right... the real question here then becomes what makes "us".

I just think that if the body, which is temporary, can remain forever then there must be something else in us that also remains forever. Our soul. But this again is a belief that I can't prove.

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Bella Dea wrote:

agrote wrote:

It's not that we will continue to exist in a different form. The matter that makes up our bodies at the time we die will continue to exist in other forms, yes. But that matter is not what we are - it can't be, since we are made up of different matter when we are born and when we die.

We are different people when we are born and when we die. :wink:

But you are right... the real question here then becomes what makes "us".

I just think that if the body, which is temporary, can remain forever then there must be something else in us that also remains forever. Our soul. But this again is a belief that I can't prove.

The body, which is temporary, can remain forever? Doesn't make sense I'm afraid. Razz

The body is temporary, as you said. Matter can perhaps remain forever, but my body cannot. If you smashed a vase into tiny, invisible pieces, then scattered the pieces all over the world, would you say that the vase still existed?

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Well, if you could locate every piece and use crazy glue to put it back together.... yes, it would still exist. :-)

[edited for spelling}

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But otherwise, it wouldn't. Right? Because as far as I know, our bodies don't put themselves back together after they decompose.

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Eorl wrote:

hmmm is there such a thing as "true for me"?

Is truth subjective or objective?

Don't be naïve, of course the truth is subjective. Truth and objectivity are those ideas toward which we aspire--they represent the ideal, they represent perfection. They do not represent reality. Whether or not Aidan were to start another thread on the topic, for the purpose of this thread (or any other), certainly the truth is subjective.

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agrote wrote:

But otherwise, it wouldn't. Right? Because as far as I know, our bodies don't put themselves back together after they decompose.

Right. I was just pointing out that an analogy of the body (which is organic) and decomposes and a vase does not work.

With regard to the body being temporal. That is true...we only have it for a certain amount of time and then it is discarded just as a McDonald's hamburger box. It is no longer useful and becomes worm food.

As for the soul..... Question

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Setanta wrote:

Eorl wrote:
hmmm is there such a thing as "true for me"?

Is truth subjective or objective?

Don't be naïve, of course the truth is subjective. Truth and objectivity are those ideas toward which we aspire--they represent the ideal, they represent perfection. They do not represent reality. Whether or not Aidan were to start another thread on the topic, for the purpose of this thread (or any other), certainly the truth is subjective.

BZZZT! What you mean, I hope, is that our perception of truth is subjective. This does not necessarily mean that the truth may not be ascertained.

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As far as my experience informs me, the truth may be approached, but not attained.

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agrote wrote:

The body, which is temporary, can remain forever? Doesn't make sense I'm afraid.

The body is temporary, as you said. Matter can perhaps remain forever, but my body cannot. If you smashed a vase into tiny, invisible pieces, then scattered the pieces all over the world, would you say that the vase still existed?

It's temporary in its current form, silly.

And yes, the vase still exists just not as it was before.

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Bella Dea wrote:

agrote wrote:

The body, which is temporary, can remain forever? Doesn't make sense I'm afraid.

The body is temporary, as you said. Matter can perhaps remain forever, but my body cannot. If you smashed a vase into tiny, invisible pieces, then scattered the pieces all over the world, would you say that the vase still existed?

It's temporary in its current form, silly.

And yes, the vase still exists just not as it was before.

So has my body always existed in some form or another?

Anyway, we're forgetting the whole cell replacement thing. My body isn't a particular set of matter, because my body consists of different matter at different times in my life. he thing that keeps my body the same body is its genetic code, its spatiotemporal continuity, and its biological causality. To put it clearer, my body now is the same body that slept in my bed last night, because they share the same genetic code, they have occupied a consistent set of spaces (my body has crawled out of bed and sat in this chair), and the cells of this body are, if not identical to the cells of the previous body, at least caused by the cells of the previous body (mitosis, or whatever...). Okay?

My genetic code will not survive after I die (unless I have an identical twin, but my twin's body would not be spatiotemporally continuous or biologically caused by my body). So my body will not survive in any form after I die.

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Setanta wrote:

As far as my experience informs me, the truth may be approached, but not attained.

OK, and good morning, sir.
But.
Is absolute nit picking truth the only worthwhile goal? What do you say? If I told someone his house was on fire, and he discovered it was confined to the trash bin on the back porch, would he fault me for my mistake or would he thank me because he was able to save the rest of his house?

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And BTW, Della; tell that to the folks who just spent 5 grand on the vase.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

In order for me to believe something, particularly something as significant as life after death, I require some evidence that it is so. I am not going to accept a theory of the structure of the universe, which this is, without evidence that it is correct. I need more than just a few anecdotes that someone almost died and thought they were approaching a bright light. Does anyone have any hard evidence, or carefully documented evidence of an afterlife?

The body certainly seems to function as a machine. Medicine treats illnesses in terms of physical cause and effect in the body. Although not all things about the body are understood, its functioning appears to be knowable. Thoughts appear to reside in the electrical and chemical activity of the brain. It would be reasonable in the absence of evidence to the contrary to suppose the body is what it appears to be - a machine - and that if the brain stops working, the thoughts stop flowing. Evidence of an afterlife, anyone?

I hesitate to even put this forward - because you seem to be so stuck on the concrete - what you can touch, see, feel and have proven to you. But my body did stop working, and I was still aware. No bright lights or tunnels or long dead relatives leading me home, or anything like that - but though my heart had stopped - due to an allergic reaction to anesthesia - I later repeated entire blocks of conversation and described events accurately to people who were in the room with me. I'm just telling you what happened to me - I don't expect it to change what you think or believe for yourself. But I do think that instead of being so dismissive of other people's experiences you might at least leave room for the possibility that things might happen differently for other people than they happen for you. An open mind is a wonderful thing. My husband is a doctor - a man of science - not a religious or spiritual bone in his body - but he believes me when I tell him that this happened to me - and he doesn't make light of it or dismiss it. In fact he finds it extremely interesting (and yes, he's informed me about the possibility of a drug and/or natural chemical reaction at the moment of death - which I also fully entertain may have been the cause, because when I say I don't know - I really mean it - I don't know. But what I do know is in those moments I felt cared for - like I never have before or since in my life. I don't know by who or by what - but I loved the feeling and for the past eighteen years since that happened to me - I no longer have had any dread or fear of death. It was one of the most wonderful experiences I've ever had - (and I've had a pretty great life, in general).

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