College Loan Forgiveness

I bet this went over the head of those who are against loan forgiveness of any kind.

Yeah, I know.

I found this though. Kinda sums it up for me:

I paid off all my student loans. I still support student loan forgiveness.
Boomers like me who paid off all of our student loans need to give millennials a break.

By David Goldstein Updated Jun 24, 2019, 3:16pm EDT

I paid off my student loans in full without assistance. Yet when editorialists decry Bernie Sanders’ student debt forgiveness plan as “unfair” to those of us who already paid off our loans (as they did with Elizabeth Warren’s), they’re certainly not speaking for me.

It’s the kind of argument designed to tug at our most selfish impulses while ignoring the economic and political transformations that have left a generation of college graduates struggling under an unprecedented mountain of student debt.

I graduated college in 1985 with $18,000 in student loans (about $42,500 in 2019 dollars), and then diligently paid them off over the next 10 years. As a father, I saved enough for my daughter’s education to assure that she could graduate college 100 percent debt-free. I’m not rich. I didn’t always make the best financial choices. But I worked hard, played by the rules, and made good on my debts. I could be the poster child for those claiming student loan forgiveness is “unfair.”

But you know what’s really unfair? The huge advantage I enjoyed graduating into the 1985 job market.

I graduated with a B.A. in history — not the most valuable field of study when it comes to job qualifications. But when I entered the job market in 1985, employers were eager to hire smart kids from good universities, whatever their degree. I got the first and only job I applied for — a cushy tech job I knew absolutely nothing about — at a starting salary of $35,000 a year. That’s $82,000 in today’s money.

But that’s how the job market worked for white, male boomers like me back in the 1960s, ’70s, and ’80s: Companies actually invested in their employees, expecting to train you on the job rather than requiring a STEM degree or years of experience at an under- or unpaid internship or fellowship.

By comparison, I know smart, talented, debt-laden millennials who graduated into a post-Great Recession job market so mean and miserly that it literally had them eating out of Dumpsters. Except for those grads at the very top of the pay scale, our current tight job market hardly treats them much better.

Over the past couple decades, real median wages for college graduates have either stagnated or declined, even as the costs of achieving and maintaining a middle-class lifestyle have gone through the roof, especially childcare, health care, housing — and of course, college tuition. To be clear, the only reason I graduated with so much debt was I had the privilege of attending a pricey private university. But had I chosen to attend a public institution, I likely would have graduated free and clear. That’s not the case for young people today.

Whenever an old white guy like me reminds you that “I worked my way through college,” remind them that in the 1981-1982 academic year, the average in-state tuition and fees at a four-year public college or university was just $909 … back when the federal minimum wage was $3.35 an hour. That means I could have paid for my entire freshman year tuition and fees with less than seven weeks of full-time minimum-wage work at just about any shitty summer job. But over the past four decades, average public university tuition and fees have increased more than 11-fold, to $10,230 a year, while the federal minimum wage of $7.25 an hour has barely doubled.

Do the math: Today, the only way to work your way through college on the typical summer job would be to extend the summer break from June through February.

So why have public universities gotten so expensive? It’s not what you probably think. Adjusted for inflation, the cost of educating students at public universities has actually increased only modestly. Rather, it’s the price that’s gone through the roof, thanks in large part to a massive shift in costs from taxpayers to students.

According to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, student tuition as a share of total spending at our nation’s public colleges and universities rose from 24 percent in 1988 to 46 percent in 2015. And in some states, this shift in costs has been far worse. In my adopted state of Washington, once home to one of the most affordable public university systems in the nation, the funding split dramatically flipped from 70 percent state, 30 percent tuition in 1991, to 30 percent state, 70 percent tuition by 2013.

Boomers like me have pulled up the ladder behind us after being educated largely at taxpayer expense. No wonder young people have piled up more than $1.5 trillion in student debt.

My father, who grew up poor, used to tell us that he worked hard so that he could give his kids all the things he never had. And by far the greatest gift he gave us was the sense of economic security that defines what it means to be middle class. I want the same for my daughter, which is why it was so important to me that she graduate into today’s job market debt-free.

This isn’t the economy we boomers grew up in. Tuition is expensive, wages are stagnant, and housing prices are so outrageous that the only way my daughter will likely ever own a house in Seattle like the one she grew up in is if I die in it. And if my child deserves a debt-free college education, doesn’t every child?

So, yes, as a late-wave boomer with absolutely nothing to gain from Sanders’ or Warren’s plans, I enthusiastically support both student debt forgiveness and debt-free college. Not just because it would be damn good for the economy by giving a whole generation saddled by debt more freedom to build up savings, buy homes, and contribute to the economy. But because I believe in the golden rule: Give unto future generations the same opportunities and privileges my generation enjoyed.

This is the part that really rings true to me. We as a society have been backing away from public university support. Every economic downturn, states cut funding for public colleges, every recovery they neglect to restore it. Once upon a time, you really could pay tuition at Big State U by working a summer job. You can't do that anymore. We should say "how much can you save in the summer and working 10 hours a week during school" and make tuition, room and board match that number at public schools.

Another cash cow for big banks?

Still asking the question how many of the 44 million with student loans are having real difficulty paying, and how much that represents in dollars.

And yes it is pertinent.

If someone has the inclination to thumb down that totally reasonable question, at least have the balls to say why.

Oct 1, 2018, 08:32am
1 Million People Default On Student Loans Each Year
Zack Friedman Senior Contributor
Personal Finance
Author, The Lemonade Life. I write about leadership and greatness.

It's a shocking statistic, but 1 million people default on their student loans each year.

Here's what you need to know and what you can do about it.

Latest Student Loan Debt Statistics

According to the latest student loan statistics from personal finance site Make Lemonade, there are more than 44 million borrowers who collectively owe $1.5 trillion in student loans. Student loans are now the second largest consumer debt category after mortgages. On average, graduates of the Class of 2016 owe $37,000 in student loans, and graduates of the Class of 2017 owe almost $40,000 in student loan debt.

A report from The Urban Institute, a non-profit research institute, found earlier this year several shocking student loan statistics related to student loan default:

40% of student loan borrowers may default on their student loans by 2023.
250,000 borrowers default on their federal student loans each quarter, with an additional 20,ooo to 30,000 who default on their rehabilitated student loans

Surprisingly, those borrowers with a smaller amount of student loan debt had a higher likelihood of default.

32% of borrowers with a balance of $5,000 or less defaulted at least once within four years compared with 15% of borrowers who owed more than $35,000.

Options If You Might Default On Your Student Loans

If you think you might default on your student loans, there are several options that you can consider for your federal student loans.

After you conduct your own, independent research, contact your student loans servicer to enroll in any of these options for student loans.

I appreciate the info. However, I believe all this information has been presented in this thread already.

Except maybe how many default each year. Which by the way I already knew that amount, but it might not have been presented in this thread yet.

Since you felt free to repeat info that was either easily researched, or already presented on this thread, I will also feel free to not go over every post again to see what was missing.

Anyway, I am going to ask for some time to respond to this, as I have a very busy day with work, doctors, and more.

I ask politely rather than presenting more links or copy and pastes until I have time to come back.

I don't want to, using a country expression of my husband, "Go at it like a boy killing snakes with a stick" meaning going all over the place. I'm interested in a conversation that addresses things point by point.

I'll be back later.

Because somebody doesn't like reasonable questions, me guess.

I think another part of this is how many of these people with loans are facing "failure to launch" because of them. I remember it was a big deal to me to start saving $100/month a year out of college. Yes, after a couple of years, I had all of $2400 in the bank and invested it in the market just in time for the '87 crash, but that felt like I was starting on a journey that would lead to a car, marriage, a house and a family. Even if these people are making the payments, they are not starting that journey. I think we've all seen those financial websites that point to the benefits of saving early. If you enter your 30's with debt and nothing in the bank, things are going to be pretty tough later in life.

I get that engineer.

Life happens, believe me, I know. We all know. Sad but try, life seldom if ever works out the way we thought or wanted.


Getting ready to submit my composed reply shortly. Hang tight.

Eureka! I finally, and accidently, came across a website that seems to supply quite a bit of the information I've been asking for on this thread.

https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/

I invite everyone to take a look at it. Lots of good info.

I suppose I'm going to have to yet again make the disclaimer that yes, there is a significant student loan debt problem where many people have problems meeting payments on their debt.
Without looking further as to why these people are having problems, I cannot make a good start of forming an opinion on what should be done about it.

Again, those are the people I am interested in. Not those who are managing their debt.

Why on earth would anyone want to forgive the debt of anyone who is managing it, maybe even getting ahead on it. It is grossly unfair to continually add this number of people into the mix, as well as the dollar amount they are managing.

Also, and this number or percentage is impossible to prove, but there is obviously people in the troubled group that were out and out just crappy managers of their finances (not the people who literally cannot make ends meet, no matter what), and/or knew upon taking the loan out they were going to default on it, and/or just plain wasted not only their money, but their opportunity for education.
No idea what that number is, but why should I care about them?
If you knew you were going to default, and/or you knew you shouldn't be spending money on certain things, that's on you.

Obviously I am not talking about those who had to make a choice between getting baseline nutrition/housing/basic human needs. Not addressing people like neptune who said they walk out of their home every day hoping they don't get shot. Was that statement even true? Never got an answer when I asked.
There are times when it is impossible to make it work. I get that. We ALL get that.

I'm really tired of having to repeat that type of statement over and over.

Those are the people loan forgiveness needs to be focused on.

It's funny, a few days ago when I was considering a post, I asked myself "What would be my gut feeling, conservatively, of the number I should put, not having any information, of the percentage of people who are making their loan payments without experiencing extreme problems, or haven't had to start making payments yet?" I thought about it and came up with "What the hell, I'm gonna say 50%. I think it's more than that, but I'm gonna go with 50%"

From the linked site, I figured...

Loans in repayment $623.7 bill 17.8 mill borrowers total 40.50%
Loans in deferment $124.3 billion 3.7 million borrowers 8.50%
Loans in forbearance $111.1 billion 2.6 million borrowers 6.00% 55%

Loans in default $101.4 billion 5.1 million borrowers 11.50%
Loans in grace period $43.9 billion 1.7 million borrowers 4.00% 15%

The above figures account for a little over 1 trillion dollars, and about 31 million borrowers. I know it isn't the same as the oft quoted 1.3 or 1.5 T and 44 mil borrowers. I supposed some of the money and people are under other catagories.
But, the thing is, overall it adds up, even with people and money not listed the same as other sources.
The figures above add up to about $32,000 in debt for each person, as opposed to $37,000 I accept to be as valid a number. Not that far off base.

However, if you take the $145B of loans in default or grace period, and divide by the 6.8 million in default or grace period, you come up with only about $21,000 per person.

That's 16K lower than the average debt of 37K

So what does that mean?
My guess is that many of those who are defaulting on these much smaller amounts weren't making as much income.
That is a definate problem. No denying it.

It would be interesting to me to in depth survey these 6.8 million and drill down as to how much lower their income was, as well as listing in detail what their monthly/quarterly/yearly expenses are.
Also, and I think this is where a lot of people have a problem, having the nerve to ask everyone to be accountable.. Asking them if there were areas where they felt they could have cut back, or made more, or a combination of the 2, and other factors, to the point where they didn't have to default. Actually getting the amounts and on what. Again, the mandatory disclaimer that yes, people need to go out to get pizza sometimes, or an event, but there is a place where it is an unreasonable amount, knowing they have a debt to pay.

If someone owed me money, and then told me they couldn't pay me back, you can be sure I would be asking them why, and expect to be told.

I have every sympathy for those in that group that had something financially devastating happen, like illness, family illness, and many more. Also things like having an unexpected child, loss of job, and so much more.

But let's be realistic. There are among those who defaulted, that if drilled down, claimed that they couldn't cut out brazilian waxes, gotten a less expensive car, or anything else. Those people are there. Why are they being counted?

Every time student loan forgiveness is mentioned, the same few things are thrown out there. the 44 million, the 1.something trillion, the 40% that may default at some future date. Like this is anything like the whole story, along with how oblivious etc a segment of the population is.

Then, when one of the oblvious asks for information which would change the complection of any of that.....silence.

And that 4 minute video that should have been less than one minute. Talk about condescending.
Talk about oversimplication. So apparantly each and every of the attributes below count for the same amount of "steps forward". First off the first and 2nd, if you gave it a moments thought, is nonsensical. If your parents are still married, expect in the rare case that they remain married but one spends time away to the point the child cannot consider them a parent, then you have a father figure in your home. What about parents who remain married, but it is an abusive/ alcoholic/unemployed/etc sh!t storm of a marriage. Each of the following have the exact same impact? Each is worth 2 steps? These things can be configured so many different ways, items combined, eliminated. But then we wouldn't have an overlong video of students running their hands across their face, taking "mother may I, giant steps", looking around confused, etc.

parents married
father figure
access to private education
free tutor
worry of cell phone shut off
never had to help with bills
athletic ability
where next meal is coming from


Oh. I love this little tidbit I picked up when googling around trying to verify something.
News flash that "forgiving all student debt could increase persons income by $4K a year.

No sh!t Sherlock. $335 pay a month.
It just sounds so much more dramatic to say $4K a year I suppose.


So what is the real number of people who have unmanageable student loan, who despite all best efforts, would benefit from debt reduction/forgiveness/other? Seems like 15% or 16% are in default or in grace period. 6.8 million....That's a far cry from the total of 44 million who have student debt. Tell me why all debt needs to be forgiven if 7 million are in default or grace?


Way back in high school, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I remember doing the following in a class one day.
Keep in mind this was not what the class was about. It wasn't some program that lasted even weeks. One....day. Well, we did it, took it home to look at, and we all read our estimates the next day.

We were tasked with writing out what we thought we would be spending in an average month of a variety of items.

Of course we on our own couldn't have known all the things we would need to spend money on, so the teacher did provide, on the board items we needed to include. I remember it included stuff like hygiene, haircuts, clothes, gifts, and other things that even adults often clump together. This as well as the things like rent, car, gas, etc.

It was interesting when the class shared their estimates. Sometimes funny, like the girl who thought she would spend something like $200 in todays dollars on haircuts. Sometimes insightful seeing what others would spend. A lot of us kids scrathing out numbers as we heard more realistic numbers for certain items from others, and input from the teacher.

I remember this day clearly from 42 years ago, because it was fun as well as educational. I still remember what different people said about why they chose the amounts they did.

When I hear the standard "well a lot of people were never taught this" I always think of that day, and think "It's not rocket surgery" Not the actually spending and saving, because as I said to engineer, life happens. It's the "Why was it Mrs. Looney could have us write this stuff down and go over it in one class, review in another it made perfect sense.

I'm not saying that would save the situation, but hearing "I didn't know I shouldn't do xyz, no one told me." makes me wonder why someone didn't take a couple of hours to tell you.

My husband tells me that all the time.

But that....is another story...

Your argument can go across the board for a whole host of social issues. Healthcare, gun control, homelessness, veterans care...

It's really easy to say it's not your problem so you don't care so no, not for student debt forgiveness. Cut out Brazilian waxes you say, as if that really is the issue here. Can students cut back? Probably. Loose with money? Again, maybe. In dire need of help? You betcha.

At one time I really needed help. Didn't get it. I don't need anyone's cannon fodder aimed at me for personal choices. Trading barbs makes us both look bad.

What it really boils down to is who "deserves" and who doesn't. That is truly realistic. It's a very simplistic viewpoint to a very complex problem.

I aim for better. Let's hope you do too.

Yes it certainly can.

So do you have any of the numbers I asked about?

I directly addressed this and much more.

You are being purposely obtuse for picking out out 2 words, brazilian wax, and make it about that.

Please address the wealth of data I provided.

If anyone owes a debt can cut back to release more money to pay off the debt. That's what they should do.

If they are loose with money, and owe a debt, they should stop being so as part of debt getting under control.

Who exactly is supposed to pay for the debt of those who don't want to cut back and stop being loose with their money?

I've traded no barbs with you. Again, you must be thinking of someone else. You mix people up a lot.
I am still curious if you were serious that each day when you leave your house you're afraid of getting shot.


The only comment made directly to you was that your video was pretty condescending and not useful. And I explained why it wasn't useful

That's not a barb. A barb isn't something you just don't want to hear.

Not going to address any of that stuff any more.

Asking you to address why you believe someone who has not got a problem paying their debt should have their debt forgiven.
What about the person who did get the nice paying job, who is paying their student debt, and also managing all their finances.
Why would their debt be forgiven?

Why do people keep taking these particular, shock inducing numbers and throw them around repeatedly, but won't acknowledge that doesn't mean that's the problem.

There's a huge amount of people who have mortgages.
There's a portion of them that have their houses foreclosed on, because life happens. Or they are just unwilling to fulfill their contract.
Are also mortgage owners supposed to be forgiven of their debt?

I'm not researching anything right now. It's a holiday weekend and I don't feel the need to work that hard. Maybe I'll get back with you about statistics, maybe not.

So there's that.

You seem to think that cutting back is the answer to student debt. I feel it's way more complicated than that.

You do need to go back and read my full post.

No I do not seem to think that cutting back is the answer to student debt.

I have said that ad nauseum

I said that before I can form an opinion on what can be done, I need to know how many of the 44 million sacred number are in need of help.

Good luck in finding it.

You can't have your cake and eat it too neptune.
You can't toss numbers around, without expecting to be questioned on it, then say "maybe I will, maybe I won't" address it.

That totally negates your credibility beyond taking the easy way out and once again repeating 44 million! 1.3 Trillion! 40% in 2023! Default! Default!

Thats not a barb either.
Just repeating what you've said multiple times.

This ^^^ is truly bizarre.

So, there are people who may truly deserve to have their student loans forgiven.

I take it you would be in favor of that. I would be in favor of that too.

But, in order to do that, we need to also forgive the loans of those who have little or no problems paying their loans, even though they've done nothing to deserve that elimination of debt.

So in order to give 7 million people relief from an average of $14K debt to the tune of $145 billion, we need to pay off the dept of 44 million people, totaling $1.3 trillion.

In what dimension does that make sense?


I have 6 friends that owe me a total of $1,300.
1 of them can't pay me the $140 they owe me.
To let that one friend who's in financial trouble not pay me, I have to tell the other 5 they no longer owe me $1170.

Sure.
That makes perfect sense.