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Quran and age of Universe

 
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2019 08:13 am
@HabibUrrehman,
But you cannot tell me what the next big scientific discovery will be just by reading the Quran, can you?

People can "read" in scripture whatever they want to read in it, thanks to the text's ambiguities. That's in fact a great deal of why religious scripture is so useful: it helps people make sense of their lives.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2019 08:14 am
@Olivier5,
or rather: "because they thought that Jews once killed one (1) Jew called Jesus"
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2019 09:12 am
@Olivier5,
You missed my whole point. in our earlier conversations you agreed that Quran is indeed preserved. Don't you think how the discoveries which are only made very recently with very powerful scientific tools are stated in Quran 1400 years ago? For example, I mentioned Quran has very accurate description of Human Embryonic development. Watch YouTube video of Dr. Keith Moore who was a Christian but later accepted Islam or see link below:

https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-a.htm

Would people 200 years ago have believed on this? I am sure not and I am sure they would have made fun of these verses. Science only affirms Quran, Quran does not need science to prove itself. It is the same Quran as it was 1400 years ago and will remain the same regardless of what science says.

Also remember Quran is not a book of science. It is a book of guidance and teaches us how to live our life in this world so that we can be successful in life after death. When Muslims are reading Quran, they are not looking to discover what will be new scientific inventions. As a Muslim we already believe in everything which Quran says. For non Muslims, Allah has kept His signs in Quran either in the form of true message of worshipping ONE God or in the form of scientific facts or in the form of numerical miracles etc...

Now there are many things which are described in Quran which science can never prove such as existence of hell or heaven because no one has seen those and science is all based on things we can see and observe. But science can't prove that heaven or hell can't exist either.

Quran also mentions how this world will end. There are many major and minor signs described in Hadiths as well for the end of time. For example, Sun will rise from West when this world is about to end. Now you would not probably believe on this until it is proven by science. That's the difference between a believer and non believer. Believer believes in the unseen and nonbeliever only believe on what they can see. Anyways, time will prove it to be true.

Below are some of the verses from Quran which talk about end of this world:

Quote:
When sight is confounded, and the moon is eclipsed (hidden from view), And sun and moon are united. (Appear as one light) Quran 75:7-9)


Quote:
They will ask about the mountains, say: My Lord will break them into scattered dust And leave it (earth) as an empty plane, so you see neither curve nor ruggedness. Quran 20:105-107


Quote:
When the sky will be like molten copper and the hills will be like flakes of wool.(Quran:70:8-9)


Quote:
And heaven is opened and becomes as gates. (Quran 78:19)


Quote:
On the day when their tongues and their hands and their feet Testify against them as to what they used to do. Qur'an 24:24


I don't expect you to believe in all this since you are not a believer but I am quoting these verses just to show Quran also talks about many things which can't be proven with science today. But in future, may be science can advanced enough to develop theories or may be prove some of these future scenarios. Allah know the best.
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2019 10:02 am
@HabibUrrehman,
The Quran is NOT a book of science, it is a religious book. Your mind is all mixed up.

Mohammad reportedly said: "Seek knowledge even if you have to go as far as China." That's generally understood as justifying science and the hard, difficult work it entails.

He did NOT say: "You don't need to study science because every important discovery is already described in my book."
HabibUrrehman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2019 10:32 am
@Olivier5,
I did not say Quran is book of science and I did not say don't study science or any other discipline. On the contrary I said exactly what you said. I am not sure how you come up to those conclusions.
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2019 12:16 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
What I mean is that the Quran is not, actually, in the business of predicting scientific discoveries. Rather, some modern readers of the Quran have projected on to the text their own interpretation of it, eager as they were to find in modern science some justification for the Quran.
HabibUrrehman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2019 12:31 pm
@Olivier5,
I see your point. I do agree that Quran does not need science to prove it but for some non-Muslims science may confirm that Quran is the true message. Everyone is different and is convinced by a different thing. Arabs at the time of Prophet Muhammad PBUH were convinced by linguistics of Quran which would mean little to a non Arab in our times.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2019 02:03 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
The Nazis actions toward the Jews did have a religion components or excuse.

Oh so you think the Nazis killed 6 million Jews because the Jews once killed one (1) Jew called Jesus. Doesn't make much sense...

Nazism was premised on the social interpretation of Darwinism by Ernst Haeckel, who conceptualized scientific racism. Nazism therefore came from science, not from religion.


Nonsense as mass killings of Jews in other word one damn pogram after another had been ongoing in Europe for many hundreds of years before Nazism existed.

Sorry the hates toward Jews that allow the holocaust to occur has a religion base an was not cause by some pseudo science theory.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2019 12:23 am
@BillRM,
Still, Nazism and also Communism are conceptually grounded in science and on the rejection of traditional Christian religions. That's a fact. You can call it pseudo science, but many scientists adhered to ot at the time, e.g. eugenism was considered perfectly scientific and appropriate by many mefical doctors and biologists, prior to WW2.

I could also call the crusaders and pogromists "pseudo-religious" to get religion off the hook, but that's too facile for me.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2019 12:40 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
for some non-Muslims science may confirm that Quran is the true message

It won't work on me. In fact I consider the argument almost blasphemous. It sounds like: "Mohammad was a prophet who was giving anatomy lessons on the side".
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2019 05:44 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Still, Nazism and also Communism are conceptually grounded in science and on the rejection of traditional Christian religions. That's a fact. You can call it pseudo science, but many scientists adhered to ot at the time, e.g. eugenism was considered perfectly scientific and appropriate by many mefical doctors and biologists, prior to WW2.

I could also call the crusaders and pogromists "pseudo-religious" to get religion off the hook, but that's too facile for me.


Sorry but it is not science and never been science and at the very best it was a pseudo science an that go even more so for the theories of communism.

Scientology even have the term science in it title however that does not mean it had anything to do with science.

Religion nonsense is religion nonsense under whatever name.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2019 05:54 am
@BillRM,
Scientific nonsense is still scientific, even though it's nonsense. Just because a theory is proven false doesn't mean it's pseudoscience. The term "pseudoscience" cannot be reasonably applied to genetics and biology. Darwin was not a "pseudo", nor was Haeck. And Marx's analysis of capitalism is fairly decent economics, overal.

You are unable to accept the scientific origins of Nazism because you worship or idealize science, like any goddamn believer...
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2019 06:11 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Scientific nonsense is still scientific, even though it's nonsense. Just because a theory is proven false doesn't mean it's pseudoscience. The term "pseudoscience" cannot be reasonably applied to genetics and biology. Darwin was not a "pseudo", nor was Haeck. And Marx's analysis of capitalism is fairly decent economics, overal.

You are unable to accept the scientific origins of Nazism because you worship or idealize science, like any goddamn believer..



Sorry but those theories never enjoy accepted on a large scale by scientists but was more of a cult movement as far as improving the race theories are concern.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2019 07:30 am
@BillRM,
In actual fact, eugenism and racism were widely shared ideas among leading biologists, medical doctors and anthropologists from the 19th century up until the second world war. It took the Holocaust to suck scientific credibility out of eugenism.

And it's cropping up again today, why with the Nazis getting out of the woodwork... Ignore history at your peril.

Quote:
Superior: The Return of Race Science
by Angela Saini
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41%2Bs8YATz7L._SX326_BO1,204,203,200_.jpgSuperior tells the disturbing story of the persistent thread of belief in biological racial differences in the world of science.

After the horrors of the Nazi regime in World War II, the mainstream scientific world turned its back on eugenics and the study of racial difference. But a worldwide network of intellectual racists and segregationists quietly founded journals and funded research, providing the kind of shoddy studies that were ultimately cited in Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray’s 1994 title The Bell Curve, which purported to show differences in intelligence among races.

If the vast majority of scientists and scholars disavowed these ideas and considered race a social construct, it was an idea that still managed to somehow survive in the way scientists thought about human variation and genetics. Dissecting the statements and work of contemporary scientists studying human biodiversity, most of whom claim to be just following the data, Angela Saini shows us how, again and again, even mainstream scientists cling to the idea that race is biologically real. As our understanding of complex traits like intelligence, and the effects of environmental and cultural influences on human beings, from the molecular level on up, grows, the hope of finding simple genetic differences between “races”—to explain differing rates of disease, to explain poverty or test scores, or to justify cultural assumptions—stubbornly persists.
HabibUrrehman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2019 09:13 am
@Olivier5,
One way to look at it is that the Creator has the absolute knowledge of everything and when science after years of research establish some facts which are already stated in Quran 1400 years ago then it only proves that Quran is the word of none but God.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2019 09:58 am
@HabibUrrehman,
In my mind, it only proves your capacity to project onto the Quran what you want it to say.
HabibUrrehman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2019 10:58 am
@Olivier5,
As I said before that different people are impressed by different things and I did not say that all non-Muslims are amazed by scientific facts in Quran. I said some non-Muslims do and seems like you are not one of them. Anyways it is not that important, truth always stands out. As Quran says:

Quote:
There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.


Keep searching and I am sure you will find the truth one day. All the best my friend.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2019 12:47 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Likewise, keep searching. Even if you think you found truth already, keep questioning.

... et souviens-toi : la foi est plus belle que Dieu.
-- Nougaro
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2019 05:45 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

In actual fact, eugenism and racism were widely shared ideas among leading biologists, medical doctors and anthropologists from the 19th century up until the second world war. It took the Holocaust to suck scientific credibility out of eugenism.

And it's cropping up again today, why with the Nazis getting out of the woodwork... Ignore history at your peril.




Sorry science and scientific theories are not and never had been by their very nature a part of any repeat any social movement.

Eugenism was and in some manner still is indeed a racist social movement but it is not science any more then Phrenology.

Hell there is no scientific classification when it come to dividing humans into races. In other word the very concept of races as far as humans is concern is scientific meaningless.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2019 06:18 pm
@BillRM,
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/race-is-a-social-construct-scientists-argue/

THE SCIENCES
Quote:
Race Is a Social Construct, Scientists Argue
Racial categories are weak proxies for genetic diversity and need to be phased out
By Megan Gannon, LiveScience on February 5, 2016
Race Is a Social Construct, Scientists Argue
Credit: Christopher Futcher ©iStock.com
More than 100 years ago, American sociologist W.E.B. Du Bois was concerned that race was being used as a biological explanation for what he understood to be social and cultural differences between different populations of people. He spoke out against the idea of "white" and "black" as discrete groups, claiming that these distinctions ignored the scope of human diversity.
Science would favor Du Bois. Today, the mainstream belief among scientists is that race is a social construct without biological meaning. And yet, you might still open a study on genetics in a major scientific journal and find categories like "white" and "black" being used as biological variables.
In an article published today (Feb. 4) in the journal Science, four scholars say racial categories are weak proxies for genetic diversity and need to be phased out. [Unraveling the Human Genome: 6 Molecular Milestones]
0 Replies
 
 

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