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PROOF THE WORLD HATES AMERICA!!!!

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 09:22 pm
Oh! So you want want to compare a single incident in the US, not sponsored, permitted, or commissioned by the government with the continuous events that the Chinese government has been responsible for?

How magnanimous of you.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 09:23 pm
Setanta wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
goodfielder wrote:
...America is so wrapped up in itself that everyone else is now saying, well play in your own sandbox, we'll find somewhere else....I get the feeling that there's more interest in China these days - as a trading partner and as a place of interest....

...and as a fascist dictatorship that shoots its people down in the streets as they demonstrate for democracy.


You mean as in Kent State University, May, 1970 . . . four dead, thirteen wounded (one of whom was paralyzed below the waist for life)?

It is my impression that the Tienanmin Square massacre was specifically planned government policy, and that the Chinese Army was instructed to shoot, whereas the Kent State massacre was the reaction of nervous National Guardsmen.

Should there be even a hint that Nixon or ordered the Guardsmen to shoot, the matter should be investigated by Congress. Were it to be found to be likely true, I would recommend criminal prosecution, if not for the fact that Nixon is dead. However, any Guard officer still living who passed such orders along should be prosecuted for homicide. If this were the case, the shooters should be prosecuted for homicide too, but I don't remember the history well enough to know if that would violate double jeopardy.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 09:24 pm
If you think one day in May in Ohio is the only time American citizens have been gunned down in the streets by the agents of government, you are truly naive.
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Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 09:27 pm
Toldja he lives in the Emerald City, Set. I think Brandon bunks with him.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 09:27 pm
Merry Andrew wrote:
Toldja he lives in the Emerald City, Set. I think Brandon bunks with him.

In lieu of an actual on point argument.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 09:34 pm
Setanta wrote:
If you think one day in May in Ohio is the only time American citizens have been gunned down in the streets by the agents of government, you are truly naive.


You're the historian, how about citing all the examples?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 09:47 pm
On the afternoon of July 27, 1919, Eugene Williams, a black youth, drowned off the 29th Street beach. A stone throwing melee between blacks and whites on the beach prevented the boy from coming ashore safely. After clinging to a railroad tie for a lengthy period, he drowned when he no longer had the strength to hold on. This was the finding of the Cook County Coroner's Office after an inquest was held into the cause of death.

William Tuttle, Jr.'s book, Race Riot: Chicago in the Red Summer of 1919, includes a 1969 interview with an eyewitness. This witness was one of the boys swimming and playing with Eugene Williams in Lake Michigan between 26th Street and the 29th Street Beach. He recalled having rocks thrown at them by a single white male standing on a breakwater 75 feet from their raft. Eugene was struck in the forehead and as his friend attempted to aid him, Eugene panicked and drowned.

The man on the breakwater left, running toward the 29th Street Beach. By this time rioting had already erupted there precipitated by vocal and physical demonstrations against a group of blacks who wanted to use the beach in defiance of its tacit designation as a "white" beach. The rioting escalated when a white police officer refused to arrest the white man, by now identified as the perpetrator of the separate incident near 26th Street. Instead he arrested a black individual. Anger over this, coupled with rumors and innuendoes that spread in both camps regarding Eugene Williams death led to 5 days of rioting in Chicago that ultimately claimed the lives of 23 blacks and 15 whites, with 291 wounded and maimed.

The Coroner's Office spent 70 day sessions and 20 night sessions on inquest work and in examining 450 witnesses.


Link

http://www.pbs.org/hueypnewton/images/times_watts02.jpg

Link for PBS site about Watts Riots

That does not consider race riots in Cincinnati on several occassions over the last 150 years, it does not include Detroit, it does not include Washington, D.C., it does not include the notorious incident in Philadephia in which police dropped an improvised explosive device on a house they were beseiging, killing men, women and children inside, and burning down several square blocks of privately owned housing. It does not include many such incidents. Race is just one ugly cause of people having been shot down in the street, without regard for probable cause or due process. It's late at night here now, but if you like, i can continue tomorrow with the organized labor movement. Then there's the draft riots in New York in 1863. Given a little time and thought, i can come up with lots more of this.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 09:58 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Setanta wrote:
If you think one day in May in Ohio is the only time American citizens have been gunned down in the streets by the agents of government, you are truly naive.


You're the historian, how about citing all the examples?


I have never billed myself as an historian, but rather as a student of history.

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/MOVE-Phihladelphia-BombNYT14may85d.GIF

Here's what that neighborhood in Philadelphia looked like after the police fire-bombed the house in which M.O.V.E. was under seige. Here's a link for that incident.

You want every example, from Shays' Rebellion in 1787 . . .

http://shaysnet.com/~bnadeau/pics/shay72s.gif

. . . to the present?

This thread will end up longer than the US, UN and Iraq series.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 10:00 pm
Setanta wrote:
On the afternoon of July 27, 1919, Eugene Williams, a black youth, drowned off the 29th Street beach. A stone throwing melee between blacks and whites on the beach prevented the boy from coming ashore safely. After clinging to a railroad tie for a lengthy period, he drowned when he no longer had the strength to hold on. This was the finding of the Cook County Coroner's Office after an inquest was held into the cause of death.

William Tuttle, Jr.'s book, Race Riot: Chicago in the Red Summer of 1919, includes a 1969 interview with an eyewitness. This witness was one of the boys swimming and playing with Eugene Williams in Lake Michigan between 26th Street and the 29th Street Beach. He recalled having rocks thrown at them by a single white male standing on a breakwater 75 feet from their raft. Eugene was struck in the forehead and as his friend attempted to aid him, Eugene panicked and drowned.

The man on the breakwater left, running toward the 29th Street Beach. By this time rioting had already erupted there precipitated by vocal and physical demonstrations against a group of blacks who wanted to use the beach in defiance of its tacit designation as a "white" beach. The rioting escalated when a white police officer refused to arrest the white man, by now identified as the perpetrator of the separate incident near 26th Street. Instead he arrested a black individual. Anger over this, coupled with rumors and innuendoes that spread in both camps regarding Eugene Williams death led to 5 days of rioting in Chicago that ultimately claimed the lives of 23 blacks and 15 whites, with 291 wounded and maimed.

The Coroner's Office spent 70 day sessions and 20 night sessions on inquest work and in examining 450 witnesses.


Link

http://www.pbs.org/hueypnewton/images/times_watts02.jpg

Link for PBS site about Watts Riots

That does not consider race riots in Cincinnati on several occassions over the last 150 years, it does not include Detroit, it does not include Washington, D.C., it does not include the notorious incident in Philadephia in which police dropped an improvised explosive device on a house they were beseiging, killing men, women and children inside, and burning down several square blocks of privately owned housing. It does not include many such incidents. Race is just one ugly cause of people having been shot down in the street, without regard for probable cause or due process. It's late at night here now, but if you like, i can continue tomorrow with the organized labor movement. Then there's the draft riots in New York in 1863. Given a little time and thought, i can come up with lots more of this.


A single officer in Chicago isn't govt sanctioned.

The incident you refer to in Philly took place at the HQ or a house that held several Black Panthers. The Black Panthers were not the boy scouts and you know it. I like the way you didn't explain that little story instead you choose to make the police look bad with telling anyone who was involved.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 10:07 pm
M.O.V.E. was not a Black Panther organization, nor was it solely the armed black men inside who suffered. Read the page linked above. Look at the photograph of the several city blocks which were torched by the irresponsible and indefensible actions of the Philadelphia police.

The 1919 incident in Chicago lasted five days, and involved more than a single officer. There is a photograph of U.S. soldiers with rifles and fixed bayonets on the streets of Chicago in 1919 which i was unable to hot-link here, for a reason i do not know. As i've already pointed out, this is just the results of the race problem in this country. I haven't even started on the organized labor movement . . .

The Flint Auto Plant Strikes of 1936-37.[/b]
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Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 10:17 pm
Setanta wrote:
M.O.V.E. was not a Black Panther organization, nor was it solely the armed black men inside who suffered. Read the page linked above. Look at the photograph of the several city blocks which were torched by the irresponsible and indefensible actions of the Philadelphia police.

The 1919 incident in Chicago lasted five days, and involved more than a single officer. There is a photograph of U.S. soldiers with rifles and fixed bayonets on the streets of Chicago in 1919 which i was unable to hot-link here, for a reason i do not know. As i've already pointed out, this is just the results of the race problem in this country. I haven't even started on the organized labor movement . . .

The Flint Auto Plant Strikes of 1936-37.[/b]


Do you have any actions that have taken place in the last 20 years? So far most everything you have posted is at least 30 years old or older. We have come a long way in that time frame so your analysis doesn't hold water.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 10:17 pm
Hell, you can do your own leg work . . . for example, go search for the Molly Maguires . . . it will be an eye-opener for anyone with an open mind. Of course, those who have already made up their minds will probably just brand it propaganda, and say the police and the Pennsylvania State Militia were justified in shooting down miners who attempted to organize.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 10:19 pm
Hedge your bets all you want, Baldimo, it won't change the fact that from 1787 to the present, the police and the Militia/National Guard and the U.S. Army have shot down citizens in the streets, in factories, in the coal fields.

This all arose over snotty remarks about the Chinese and the incident in Tianemen Square. That was more than 15 years ago. Got any evidence that the Chinese have done that within the last 15 years?

Pot, meet kettle.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 10:29 pm
http://www.tcnj.edu/~blohm3/rubble.jpg

Watts, 1965.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 10:32 pm
http://www.esc.edu/photo/police%20brutality%20small2.jpg

Birmingham, 1963.[/b]
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 10:32 pm
And the Chinese have gone through several, shall we say, 'phases', in government. I would like to think that something like the Tiananmen Square massacre coudn't happen today (but I'll never say "never"). However the Chinese government is still totalitarian.

On the other point which is really interesting and justifies the thread coup, I did read somewhere that the New Jersey State Police was initially formed to smash strikers because the local cops wouldn't do it.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 10:33 pm
So Baldimo, you're saying that everything is all nice and rosey now, it could never happen here again?

The Chinese could with as much justice say, that was 16 years ago, it could never happen here again.

Sauce for the goose makes sauce for the gander.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 10:39 pm
I'm not so sure about that, Goodfielder. The New Jersey State Police were established in 1925, and the governor called upon Col. H. Norman Schwarzkopf[/b] to create the new force. His name is familiar to Americans, however, because his son, with the same name, was in command of Central Command in 1990, and became the coalition commander in the 1990-91 Gulf War against Iraq.

If you have other evidence, however, i won't deny it.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 10:42 pm
Setanta wrote:
So Baldimo, you're saying that everything is all nice and rosey now, it could never happen here again?

The Chinese could with as much justice say, that was 16 years ago, it could never happen here again.

Sauce for the goose makes sauce for the gander.


I will say race relations could not return to what they were then. Race riots of today are more suited to situations like Rodney King were people destroy their own neighborhoods. Besides the LA riots of Rodney King were not so much about what happened him as it was for a lame excuss for people to break things and rob stores.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 10:46 pm
That's a wonderful attitude, Baldimo.

It is precisely because Americans of certain points of view habitually sneer at other nations, looking down their noses at them for their governments, or their cultures, or their religions, and all the while ignoring the problems and the failings of Americans, that other people in the world are sick to death of us.

Whited sepulchres, full of rotting flesh and dead mens' bones . . .
0 Replies
 
 

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