Germany Criticizes Turkey: No EU for Islamists!

look!

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old europe wrote:

look!

Ich entschuldige. (is that right?)

Laughing

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Ja, das ist richtig!

Well done, Trupolitik!

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old europe wrote:

Ja, das ist richtig!

Well done, Trupolitik!

Thanks Bro,
Of course I had help. (although I did take one semester of Deutsche-switched to Espanol as it is way more practical here)
:wink:

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Well, of course I agree with what OE said.

These critics are going on for years now, and have been told Turkey quite a few times 'sincerely' - most, if not all, changes in Turkey recently are due to that.

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I bow to the insights of OE and Walter. My responses were triggered mostly by the tone of Trupolitik's headline: 'No EU for Islamists' does not really reflect the tenor of Schröder's remarks. Those remarks were not based on religious considerations.

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Yeppers.

Though I suspect in using the term "Islamists" Trupolitik was commenting upon the political extremists on the fringe of Islam - not Muslims per se.

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dlowan wrote:

Yeppers.

Though I suspect in using the term "Islamists" Trupolitik was commenting upon the political extremists on the fringe of Islam - not Muslims per se.

Bingo.

Just like the 911 Commission said...

Quote:

"...But the enemy is not just "terrorism," some generic evil. This vagueness blurs the strategy.The catastrophic threat at this moment in history is more specific... It is the threat posed by Islamist terrorism, its affiliates, and its ideology... That stream is motivated by religion and does not distinguish politics from religion, thus distorting both."

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Trupolitik wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
We only criticize Christianists, not Christians. Know the difference?

Cycloptichorn

Good!

and Yes I know the difference. Those Christians who do not want a separation of church and state, and want legislation from the church-pastor-priest himself would be one element. Also, one who asserts that the constitution was based solely on Christian law. Also, a christianist would pass laws so that people could not practice their own religion or none at all, making it a crime against the state. Or a crime to set up other "temples of worship".

Christians however (as opposed to chritianists) believe what their text says, "give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's" and do not want a theocracy.

Do you criticize Islamists as well?

Great!

Yeah, I do criticize Islaamists. I have been a firm believer in secular gov't for a long time. The only difference is, the Islaamists are mucking around with their countries, which I don't really have a say in, where as the Christianists are mucking around with my country, which I do have a say in. So you will find me criticizing Christianists far more often, for practical reasons.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

...The only difference is, the Islaamists are mucking around with their countries, which I don't really have a say in...

Cycloptichorn

Well, we may disagree on this...BUT, if you believe in the "Brotherhood of Mankind", then you DO have a say. You DO have a right. You DO have a duty to help them.

Also, what about the countries like Sudan and Nigeria, that are becoming Islamist through Arab conquest? This is just as bad (if not worse) than China rolling through Tibet.

I am not asking you to support Bush or the Neocon method. I know you wont. heh. BUT, it just seems like a good old fashioned Liberal Awareness Protest could help the people being oppressed. THAT atleast is where we could come together.

Cool

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Trupolitik wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
...The only difference is, the Islaamists are mucking around with their countries, which I don't really have a say in...

Cycloptichorn

Well, we may disagree on this...BUT, if you believe in the "Brotherhood of Mankind", then you DO have a say. You DO have a right. You DO have a duty to help them.

Thereby you would allow other countries to have a say in US affairs when they perceive the influence Christianists have in the US politics/government as a threat. Actually, you are arguing that other countries have a duty in meddling in US political affairs.

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old europe wrote:

Trupolitik wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
...The only difference is, the Islaamists are mucking around with their countries, which I don't really have a say in...

Cycloptichorn

Well, we may disagree on this...BUT, if you believe in the "Brotherhood of Mankind", then you DO have a say. You DO have a right. You DO have a duty to help them.

Thereby you would allow other countries to have a say in US affairs when they perceive the influence Christianists have in the US politics/government as a threat. Actually, you are arguing that other countries have a duty in meddling in US political affairs.

When we have gross violations of Human Rights....Yes. If we start acting like Turkey, Iran, Sudan, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, North Korea et al. I HOPE you guys would say something!

:wink:

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What about torture, abducting innocent citizens of foreign countries, or passing a law that requires all public buildings to have postings of the Ten Commandments..?

That's almost along the lines of Turkey. Should we say something?

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Well, Tru, we HAVE gross violations of human rights. Don't you know this?

Cycloptichorn

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old europe wrote:

What about torture, abducting innocent citizens of foreign countries, or passing a law that requires all public buildings to have postings of the Ten Commandments..?

That's almost along the lines of Turkey. Should we say something?

1. I wasnt aware we had legalized torture?

2. I wasnt aware that our laws condoned the abduction of "innocent" people?

3. I wasnt aware that we had a law requiring all public buildings to post the 10 commandments?

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Well, Tru, we HAVE gross violations of human rights. Don't you know this?

Cycloptichorn

You never addressed this...specifically I would like you opinion on Sudan, Nigeria and my comparison to Tibet.

Quote:

Well, we may disagree on this...BUT, if you believe in the "Brotherhood of Mankind", then you DO have a say. You DO have a right. You DO have a duty to help them.

Also, what about the countries like Sudan and Nigeria, that are becoming Islamist through Arab conquest? This is just as bad (if not worse) than China rolling through Tibet.

I am not asking you to support Bush or the Neocon method. I know you wont. heh. BUT, it just seems like a good old fashioned Liberal Awareness Protest could help the people being oppressed. THAT atleast is where we could come together.

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Tru

Quote:

1. I wasnt aware we had legalized torture?

We have. Where have you been?

Quote:

2. I wasnt aware that our laws condoned the abduction of "innocent" people?

They do. Google 'extraordinary rendition' or 'red sox jet' and find out for yerself.

Quote:

3. I wasnt aware that we had a law requiring all public buildings to post the 10 commandments?

We're getting there.

http://www.stpetetimes.com/2005/03/31/Worldandnation/Mississippi_moves_tow.shtml

Quote:

JACKSON, Miss. - Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour indicated Wednesday he was inclined to sign a bill that would require all public buildings to have postings of the Ten Commandments, "In God We Trust" and excerpts from Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.

As for Sudan and Nigeria, I would like to see more being done on a world level about these problems. I'd comment more on them but I really don't have a lot of knowledge on the subject; can ya link me some articles so I can catch up to speed?

Cheers

Cycloptichorn

ps. you're the nicest Neocon I've ever met

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re 2.

I've posted this several times. Finally it was decided by the German government not to bring this up when Rice and Bush visited:

Report: German Suffered US Rendition

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

ps. you're the nicest Neocon I've ever met

You're so evil, Cyc! So evil! Twisted Evil

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Tru

Quote:

1. I wasnt aware we had legalized torture?

We have. Where have you been?

Quote:
2. I wasnt aware that our laws condoned the abduction of "innocent" people?

They do. Google 'extraordinary rendition' or 'red sox jet' and find out for yerself.

Quote:
3. I wasnt aware that we had a law requiring all public buildings to post the 10 commandments?

We're getting there.

http://www.stpetetimes.com/2005/03/31/Worldandnation/Mississippi_moves_tow.shtml

Quote:
JACKSON, Miss. - Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour indicated Wednesday he was inclined to sign a bill that would require all public buildings to have postings of the Ten Commandments, "In God We Trust" and excerpts from Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.

As for Sudan and Nigeria, I would like to see more being done on a world level about these problems. I'd comment more on them but I really don't have a lot of knowledge on the subject; can ya link me some articles so I can catch up to speed?

Cheers

Cycloptichorn

ps. you're the nicest Neocon I've ever met

1. Torture. There is a difference between legalizing Torture, and someone initiating a directive that is contrary to our laws and treaties. That being said, I dont have a problem with anyone speaking against those directives.

2. Extradition. I have heard of Maher Arar. I would like to see what evidence we have on him before I make a decision on that. I do think however, that terror suspects deserve military tribunals. edited to add...same goes for the german. there needs to be a vetting process. I favor Military tribunals.

3. Getting there isnt THERE. This Guy's activism will PROPERLY be struck down by the Supreme Court.

Thanks. That's because I am REAL Neocon. (meaning I was a liberal at one time) I like talking to you guys too. It is good that we can get beyond the rhetoric that goes on. That kind of talk keeps everyone in ignorance.

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Germany Criticizes Turkey: No EU for Islamists!

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