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Wed 4 May, 2005 03:10 pm
This is exactly what I have been saying. Turkey is becoming more and more Islamist and because of the Islamists, Women and Religious minorities are suffering...
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1574355,00.html
Quote:"German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder on Wednesday criticized Turkey for a string of deficiencies in its democracy, urging the country to correct them if it wants to join the European Union.
Mistreatment by security forces, limits on freedom of expression and discrimination against women are incompatible with our common values," Schröder said at a speech at Marmara University after official talks in Ankara.
The German leader also spoke of the "necessity of reform" in religious freedoms in this mainly Muslim country, specifically mentioning a meeting earlier in the day with the Istanbul-based spiritual leader of the Orthodox Church, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I.
Turkey is under pressure to remove legal obstacles for non-Muslim religious foundations to fully exercise their property rights and to reopen a Greek Orthodox seminary in Istanbul closed down more than 30 years ago.
If Turkey is excluded from the EU on religious grounds, then I think we should take a second look to see whether France or Germany qualify as members. Quite large Muslim minorities in both countries. The UK, too, come to think of it. After all, we are establishing a new Christendom here, aren't we? A sort of new Holy Roman Empire, as it were?
Merry Andrew wrote:If Turkey is excluded from the EU on religious grounds, then I think we should take a second look to see whether France or Germany qualify as members. Quite large Muslim minorities in both countries. The UK, too, come to think of it. After all, we are establishing a new Christendom here, aren't we? A sort of new Holy Roman Empire, as it were?
I understand that you are used to being critical against Christians. But you are really showing your inability to think without bias if you critisize Germany for insisting on equal rights for women and religious minorities. Its not germany's fault if the Islamists violate the UDHR in the name of religion. It is theirs.
We only criticize Christianists, not Christians. Know the difference?
Cycloptichorn
I'm not critical of Christians, Truepolitik. I'm critical of bigots and hypocrites.
Merry Andrew wrote:I'm not critical of Christians, Truepolitik. I'm critical of bigots and hypocrites.
So Schroder is a bigot and hypocrit? I thought as a Social Democrat he was quite in favor of secularism?? Sounds pretty consistent to me.
Cycloptichorn wrote:We only criticize Christianists, not Christians. Know the difference?
Cycloptichorn
Good!
and Yes I know the difference. Those Christians who do not want a separation of church and state, and want legislation from the church-pastor-priest himself would be one element. Also, one who asserts that the constitution was based solely on Christian law. Also, a christianist would pass laws so that people could not practice their own religion or none at all, making it a crime against the state. Or a crime to set up other "temples of worship".
Christians however (as opposed to chritianists) believe what their text says, "give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's" and do not want a theocracy.
Do you criticize Islamists as well?
Er - isn't the EU a club, of xorts?
Do clubs not have rules?
If Turkey is stepping up, or not changing, its practices which are out of line with the rules for the EU, is it not fair and reasonable to let the leaders of that country know that they may not be permitted to join?
They can do as they wish - they may simply be choosing not to join the EU.
Am I dense? I am failing to see the bigotry.
That being said, I think the practices of "the war against terror" are a force which is ramping up Islamist extremism in a number of hitherto more tolerant Muslim countries. The same is threatening to happen in Indonesia, for instance.
dlowan wrote:Er - isn't the EU a club, of xorts?
Do clubs not have rules?
If Turkey is stepping up, or not changing, its practices which are out of line with the rules for the EU, is it not fair and reasonable to let the leaders of that country know that they may not be permitted to join?
They can do as they wish - they may simply be choosing not to join the EU.
Am I dense? I am failing to see the bigotry.
I am seeing more and more that "so-called Liberals" are attacking people who are standing up FOR human rights, instead of the Violators. Strange huh?
Trupolitik, I have no idea whether or not Herr Schröder is a bigot or a hypocrite. I've never met the man. What is bigoted is any policy which would exclude a country from membership in an international consortium on the basis of dominant religious practices only. What is hypocritical is any assertion that "human rights violations" are, somehow, the main reason for opposing Turkey's entrance into the EU. I suspect that's something of a red herring; the reasons have more to do with economic rather than humanitarian concerns. From what I have read, Turkey, more than any other Islamic nation, has bent over backwards to make sure that its government, at least, is secular and non-Islamic. Turkish legislators are forbidden to wear distinctively Muslim garb to meetings. The laws of Turkey, instituted by Gammel Atatürk after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire early in the last century, are in no sense based on Sharia law.
But I'm intrigued by the fact that you suggested that I'm critical of Christians. Does that mean you recognize the truth in my statement that some of the Western Europeans would like to see a new Holy Roman Empire, that Europe should be an exclusively Christian conclave?
Well, me dear, I am way left of your "liberals" - so I wouldna go making too many assumptions!
I'm not really sure what you people are talking about, but I think what was critizised by Schröder was the slowing down of the reform process in Turkey. That includes mistreatment by security forces, that inludes limits on freedom of expression and discrimination against women. Sad enough such things still exist in Turkey.
But of course it includes religious freedoms as well. There still is discrimination against non-Muslim religions in the country. Erdogan promised to have this changed, and Turkey should be working on reforms if it wants to become a EU member, but not a lot seems to be happening.
This has nothing to do with "christianizing" Turkey (what a ridiculous idea), but rather with accepting other religions and not discriminating them. Unfortunately, but maybe understandable to some degree, several groups have their reservations against either religion per se or Christians. The islamists don't want to see other religions gaining importance, and nationalists and general are against all religious groups, Islam included. Muslims have other means of organizing to their avail in the mainly Muslim country, but Christians and Jews don't.
I have no idea how you would compare the situation with France, Germany or the UK.
dlowan wrote:Well, me dear, I am way left of your "liberals" - so I wouldna go making too many assumptions!
That is why I said "so-called" Liberals. :wink:
someone who is more liberal than US liberals? Hrmmm.... A Libertarian?
Merry Andrew wrote:Trupolitik, I have no idea whether or not Herr Schröder is a bigot or a hypocrite. I've never met the man. What is bigoted is any policy which would exclude a country from membership in an international consortium on the basis of dominant religious practices only. What is hypocritical is any assertion that "human rights violations" are, somehow, the main reason for opposing Turkey's entrance into the EU. I suspect that's something of a red herring; the reasons have more to do with economic rather than humanitarian concerns.
That would be true if it wasn't Schröder bringing this up. The opposition parties have argued that it is to early to allow Turkey into the EU, and has come up with a number of reasons. Economy was mentioned, as well as the fact that Turkey, as a Muslim country, doesn't blend in with the EU's culture...
Nevertheless, it seems that there are still human rights do get violated in Turkey, and I don't think this is a good base for a country that seeks membership. Would you rather have Schröder not bringing up this issue?
old europe wrote:I'm not really sure what you people are talking about, but I think what was critizised by Schröder was the slowing down of the reform process in Turkey. That includes mistreatment by security forces, that inludes limits on freedom of expression and discrimination against women. Sad enough such things still exist in Turkey.
But of course it includes religious freedoms as well. There still is discrimination against non-Muslim religions in the country. Erdogan promised to have this changed, and Turkey should be working on reforms if it wants to become a EU member, but not a lot seems to be happening.
This has nothing to do with "christianizing" Turkey (what a ridiculous idea), but rather with accepting other religions and not discriminating them. Unfortunately, but maybe understandable to some degree, several groups have their reservations against either religion per se or Christians. The islamists don't want to see other religions gaining importance, and nationalists and general are against all religious groups, Islam included. Muslims have other means of organizing to their avail in the mainly Muslim country, but Christians and Jews don't.
I have no idea how you would compare the situation with France, Germany or the UK.
Your understanding is exactly the same as mine, Old Europe.
Trupolitik wrote:dlowan wrote:Well, me dear, I am way left of your "liberals" - so I wouldna go making too many assumptions!
That is why I said "so-called" Liberals. :wink:
someone who is more liberal than US liberals? Hrmmm.... A Libertarian?
In the rest of the world, your liberals are mildly right wing on the ploitical spectrum.
Most of us see your political divisions as minor differences in a dominantly right establishment.
But then, the minutia of other countries' political squabbles almost always seem very odd, don't they?
Merry Andrew wrote:... From what I have read, Turkey, more than any other Islamic nation, has bent over backwards to make sure that its government, at least, is secular and non-Islamic. Turkish legislators are forbidden to wear distinctively Muslim garb to meetings. The laws of Turkey, instituted by Gammel Atatürk after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire early in the last century, are in no sense based on Sharia law...
But I'm intrigued by the fact that you suggested that I'm critical of Christians. Does that mean you recognize the truth in my statement that some of the Western Europeans would like to see a new Holy Roman Empire, that Europe should be an exclusively Christian conclave?
1. That WAS the case in Turkey. But Islamists have been growing stronger. In Fact, (I cant find the article) but one of the top officials now in Turkey is gaining alot of favor because he said the constitution should be re-written and replaced by Sharia. (I will try to find the article)
2. Of course I recognize that about Fundamentalist Christians!?! I am not hypocrit you know!! :wink:
dlowan wrote:old europe wrote:I'm not really sure what you people are talking about, but I think what was critizised by Schröder was the slowing down of the reform process in Turkey. That includes mistreatment by security forces, that inludes limits on freedom of expression and discrimination against women. Sad enough such things still exist in Turkey.
But of course it includes religious freedoms as well. There still is discrimination against non-Muslim religions in the country. Erdogan promised to have this changed, and Turkey should be working on reforms if it wants to become a EU member, but not a lot seems to be happening.
This has nothing to do with "christianizing" Turkey (what a ridiculous idea), but rather with accepting other religions and not discriminating them. Unfortunately, but maybe understandable to some degree, several groups have their reservations against either religion per se or Christians. The islamists don't want to see other religions gaining importance, and nationalists and general are against all religious groups, Islam included. Muslims have other means of organizing to their avail in the mainly Muslim country, but Christians and Jews don't.
I have no idea how you would compare the situation with France, Germany or the UK.
Your understanding is exactly the same as mine, Old Europe.
Me too....not bad for a Yank, huh?
:wink:
Heck, that's more people agreeing with me than I can handle!
old europe wrote:Heck, that's more people agreeing with me than I can handle!
uh oh! He must be french.
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