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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 02:17 pm
mctag : of course this was a silly question since i knew the answer.

at the end of WW II we lived in the british occupied zone of germany and wherever one went there were the "tommies" (as the british soldiers were affectionately called by the germans). the "tommies" weren't hiding in fortified positions, but they also made sure that they were respected. rule # 1 was, of course, that germans were not allowed to have any weapons .
by being around at all times, the british soldiers became part of the daily scene very quickly. they also started to go out on patrol with german police within a very short time - probably within a month -
after the war ended.
i remember that a british army firefighter unit was stationed just across the street from where we lived. before the end of the summer of '45 i had met one of the firefighters - he probably wasn't much older than i was - and it didn't take long before we started visiting back-and-force ; carefully at first, because fraternization was strictly "verboten". it didn't take long and he would visit for an evening; he'd usually bring along some fresh loaves of bread and a big messkit of tea (you could put a spoon into it and it would not fall over - with all the eagle condensed milk in it !).
since we lived in the harbour it was easier for us to meet british soldiers than it was for people living in the city - there were no spying neighbours and the MP's (military police) had better things to do than crack down on visits.

when i look back upon those years, it was truly an effort to win "the hearts and minds" of the german population. it worked , but no one seemed to make a big deal about it. (sorry for being nostagic for "the good old days " !). hbg
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 02:31 pm
us and them
ican wrote :

" What will probably happen after our pullout from Iraq?

To the Iraqi civilian death rate? This /\ not this \/? "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the civilian death rate can probably not get much worth than it's been up-to-now. "shock-and-awe" was to end it all, wasn't it ? what happened ? something didn't go a/t plan ?
while no one seems to have been able to establish an accurate civilian death-toll number, it seems that even conservative estimates talk about 15,000+ civilians killed (some talk about 100,000 - will we ever know ?). and that number does not include those civilians that have died because of inadequate health facilities.
anyone interested may want to check out various articles dealing with this sorry subject(see below). hbg



...CIVILIAN DEATHS...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 02:39 pm
hbg, What we don't hear about is the living conditions for women of Iraq. Most stay indoors now, because it's not safe for them to be outside. It was reported that there are no protections for women; they are being raped and violated in many different ways. There are no laws to protect the women of Iraq. Their new constitution is a joke; there isn't anything that resembles a "democracy" for all the people of Iraq. They're supposed to have a new draft of their constitution ready by August 15, a deadline that will come and pass without a "real" constitution in hand. It will be interesting to see how they reconcile all of their differences of "equality" and the sharing of oil revenues.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 03:44 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Our boat has been leaking for a long time; better to admit it. Cycloptichorn


I admit it!

Now what?

Shall I join you while you continue to merely observe and fuss and complain and, on occassion, even laugh about its sinking, or shall you join me and try to find a way to stop, or at least slow, its sinking?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 04:46 pm
Re: us and them
hamburger wrote:
ican wrote :

"What will probably happen after our pullout from Iraq?

To the Iraqi civilian death rate? This /\ not this \/? "

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Attempting to take into account all Iraqi civilian deaths caused directly and indirectly by malignancy in Iraq, I've come up with a number derived from multiple conflicting sources, none of which I can defend.

The war started about 2 years, 4 months, and 25 days ago. At a malignancy caused death rate of 30 per day over that period, I compute a total number of malignancy caused deaths =

MCD = [(365 x 2) + (365 x 4/12) +25] x 30 = 26,300.

At the present rate, in one more year that total will grow to [26,300 + (365 x 30)] = 26,300 + 10950 = 37,250.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now back to the original question!

"What will probably happen after our pullout from Iraq?

To the Iraqi civilian death rate? This /\ not this \/? "

To the American civilian death rate? This /\ not this \/?

To the growth of totalitarian rule? This /\ not this \/?

To Iraqi oil production? This /\ not this \/?
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 05:03 pm
it seems understood that at a certain point in time - no one seems to have even an approximate date for that - the united states will be leaving iraq, unless the u.s. decides to stay forever (?).
so following your reasoning, the civilian death rate will increase when the u.s. leaves.
perhaps if an iranian style government takes power - which seems a distinct possibility, judging from various reports - , there might be a reduction in the death rate. so an iranian style government might be prefarable by the majority of the iraqis (but i certainly don't know).

btw slowing down the "sinking" - your earlier post - would probably not be of much benefit to the iraqis, they'd still drown; just a little more slowly. hbg
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 05:08 pm
it seems understood that at a certain point in time - no one seems to have even an approximate date for that - the united states will be leaving iraq, unless the u.s. decides to stay forever (?).
so following your reasoning, the civilian death rate will increase when the u.s. leaves.
perhaps if an iranian style government takes power - which seems a distinct possibility, judging from various reports - , there might be a reduction in the death rate. so an iranian style government might be preferable by the majority of the iraqis (but i certainly don't know).
from reading some reports from iraq, i am under the impression what most iraqis want more than anything, is being able to go about their business without fearing of being killed(remember, that's why the major of baghdad left - he had a way out, most iraquis don't)

btw slowing down the "sinking" - your earlier post - would probably not be of much benefit to the iraqis, they'd still drown; just a little more slowly. hbg
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 05:17 pm
hamburger wrote:
...i am under the impression what most iraqis want more than anything, is being able to go about their business without fearing of being killed

If I were an Iraqi in Iraq, I'd want the same thing "more than anything!"

hamburger wrote:
btw slowing down the "sinking" - your earlier post - would probably not be of much benefit to the iraqis, they'd still drown; just a little more slowly. hbg


I agree that slowing down the sinking will only delay drowning. However, it's been my experience that most complex problems can only be corrected incrementally. The search for a single immediate solution usually results in no satisfactory solution at all. So while we slow it down, we should use whatever extra time that buys us to work out additional incremental solutions until we stop the sinking altogether.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 05:27 pm
ican wrote : " So while we slow it down, we should use whatever extra time that buys us to work out additional incremental solutions until we stop the sinking altogether".

i certainly agree with you on that, ican. it just seems to me that one neither sees nor hear of "incremental solutions". the impression i get is , that course correction is not considered acceptable. perhaps course corrections will be made to the benefit of all mankind, i'd certainly applaud that.
let's hope sanity will prevail eventually. hbg
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 05:27 pm
American Committees on Foreign Relations, ACFR NewsGroup No. 592, Monday, August 15, 2005, distributed, and author wrote:

August 9, 2005 New York Times

Why Tolerate the Hate?
By IRSHAD MANJI

Toronto

FOR a European leader, Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain has done something daring. He has given notice not just to the theocrats of Islam, but also to the theocracy of tolerance.

"Staying here carries with it a duty," Mr. Blair said in referring to foreign-born Muslim clerics who glorify terror on British soil. "That duty is to share and support the values that sustain the British way of life. Those who break that duty and try to incite hatred or engage in violence against our country and its people have no place here."

With that, his government proposed new laws to deport extremist religious leaders, to shut down the mosques that house them and to ban groups with a history of supporting terrorism. The reaction was swift: a prominent human rights advocate described Mr. Blair's measures as "neo-McCarthyite hectoring," warning that they would make the British "less distinguishable from the violent, hateful and unforgiving theocrats, our democracy undermined from within in ways that the suicide bombers could only have dreamed of."

But if these anti-terror measures feel like an overreaction to the London bombings, that's only because Britons, like so many in the West, have been avoiding a vigorous debate about what values are most worth defending in our societies.

As Westerners bow down before multiculturalism, we anesthetize ourselves into believing that anything goes. We see our readiness to accommodate as a strength - even a form of cultural superiority (though few will admit that). Radical Muslims, on the other hand, see our inclusive instincts as a form of corruption that makes us soft and rudderless. They believe the weak deserve to be vanquished.

Paradoxically, then, the more we accommodate to placate, the more their contempt for our "weakness" grows. And ultimate paradox may be that in order to defend our diversity, we'll need to be less tolerant. Or, at the very least, more vigilant. And this vigilance demands more than new antiterror laws. It requires asking: What guiding values can most of us live with? Given the panoply of ideologies and faiths out there, what filter will distill almost everybody's right to free expression?

Neither the watery word "tolerance" nor the slippery phrase "mutual respect" will cut it as a guiding value. Why tolerate violent bigotry? Where's the "mutual" in that version of mutual respect? Amin Maalouf, a French-Arab novelist, nailed this point when he wrote that "traditions deserve respect only insofar as they are respectable - that is, exactly insofar as they themselves respect the fundamental rights of men and women."

Allow me to invoke a real-life example of what can't be tolerated if we're going to maintain freedom of expression for as many people as possible. In 1999, an uproar surrounded the play "Corpus Christi" by Terrence McNally, in which Jesus was depicted as a gay man. Christians protested the show and picketed its European debut in Edinburgh, a reasonable exercise in free expression. But Omar Bakri Muhammad, a Muslim preacher and a judge on the self-appointed Sharia Court of the United Kingdom, went further: he signed a fatwa calling for Mr. McNally to be killed, on the grounds that Jesus is considered a prophet by Muslims. (Compassion overflowed in the clause that stated Mr. McNally "could be buried in a Muslim graveyard" if he repented.) Mr. Bakri then had the fatwa distributed throughout London.

Since then, Mr. Bakri has promoted violent struggle from various London meeting halls. He has even lionized the July 7 bombers as the "fantastic four." He is a counselor of death, and should not have been allowed to remain in Britain. And thanks to Mr. Blair's newfound fortitude, he has reportedly fled England for Lebanon.

The Muslim Council of Britain, a mainstream lobbying group that assailed Mr. Blair's proposed measures, has long claimed that men like Mr. Bakri represent only a slim fraction of the country's nearly two million Muslims. Assuming that's true, British Muslims - indeed, Muslims throughout the West - should rejoice at their departures or deportations, because all forms of Islam that respect the freedom to disbelieve, to go one's own way, will be strengthened.

Which brings me to my vote for a value that could guide Western societies: individuality. When we celebrate individuality, we let people choose who they are, be they members of a religion, free spirits, or something else entirely. I realize that for many Europeans, "individuality" might sound too much like the American ideal of individualism. It doesn't have to. Individualism - "I'm out for myself" - differs from individuality - "I'm myself, and my society benefits from my uniqueness."

Of course, there may be better values than individuality for Muslims and non-Muslims to embrace. Let's have that debate - without fear of being deemed self-haters or racists by those who twist multiculturalism into an orthodoxy. We know the dangers of taking Islam literally. By now we should understand the peril of taking tolerance literally.

Irshad Manji is the author of "The Trouble with Islam Today: A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith."
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 05:46 pm
hamburger wrote:
... the impression i get is , that course correction is not considered acceptable. perhaps course corrections will be made to the benefit of all mankind, i'd certainly applaud that.
let's hope sanity will prevail eventually. hbg


Course corrections are acceptable to me. But perhaps being an aviator, I'm biased. For example, I try to avoid flying into thunderstorms, while proceeding to my destination. But in the event I learn I cannot avoid them going directly to my intended destination, I proceed to an alternate airport and choose an alternate but still effective form of transportation.

OK! Figuratively speaking, I've got my navigation and weather charts out on my desk. What initial course do you recommend based on your weather and navigation charts?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 06:30 pm
Iraq parties fight for final deal
Difficult talks over Iraq's new constitution have been taking place in Baghdad just a day before the document is due to go to parliament.
All the signs are that hard bargaining continues between the political groupings, a BBC correspondent says.

The Sunnis say they won't accept a federal Iraq; another sticking point is the distribution of resources.

With the prospect of only a partial deal looming, parliament has delayed its opening session until Monday.

The National Assembly had been due to meet on Sunday, working to a deadline of Monday night for approving the constitution.

A partial deal, the BBC's Mike Wooldridge notes, would be realistic for some but futile for others.

Contentious issues

Saleh Mutlaq, a Sunni Muslim member of the panel drafting the constitution, said on Sunday that most of the issues were still under discussion and a final agreement was unlikely on Sunday.

However, a leading Shia member, Bahaa al-Araji, predicted a deal by the end of the day.

Parliament is due to receive the draft on Monday after which the constitution will go to a nationwide referendum in October.


[Federalism] is a red line for us as it concerns the unity of Iraq and we will not bargain on this
Saleh Mutlaq
Sunni negotiator


Iraqi President Jalal Talabani predicted a deal would be achieved on Sunday, saying "many contentious issues" had been resolved.
Zalmay Khalilzad, US ambassador to Iraq, told a US television network that Iraqi leaders had said they intended to reach agreement on Monday.

Some politicians have suggested the draft could be presented to the Shia and Kurdish-dominated parliament for approval without having the Sunnis on board.

But this has raised concerns the constitution would alienate the Sunni minority further and could create a backlash when the referendum is held.

Sunni 'red line'

Kurdish and Shia members have reportedly dropped demands that the country should be called federal or Islamic, and agreed that the official name should be the Republic of Iraq.

But the devolution of power in a future Iraq, beyond the existing autonomy enjoyed by Kurds, remains contentious.


Sunni Muslims have been incensed by a call from the leading Shia politician, Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, for an autonomous region in the oil-rich south.

"We will not accept a federal system in the constitution," Mr Mutlaq told AFP news agency on Sunday.

"This is a red line for us as it concerns the unity of Iraq and we will not bargain on this."

Oil promise

The oil minister has promised that the new constitution will ensure the fair distribution of lucrative oil revenues.

"Iraqi oil for Iraqi people will be managed by Iraqi central government with the consultation of the regional provinces authority with the fair distribution for all Iraqi people," Ibrahim Bahr al-Uloum said.

Speaking to the Associated Press news agency, he said the details would be "be left for later on to be determined".

In other developments:

five US soldiers are killed in roadside bombings over the weekend and another is shot, the US military says. At least 11 Iraqis are killed on Sunday

rallies take place in Kurdish towns and the northern oil city of Kirkuk, as the Kurds press their demands for self-rule

police find 30 bodies, two of them women, in a mass grave south of Baghdad

Women's rights will be safeguarded under the constitition, despite fears that their freedoms could be curtailed, Iraq's ambassador in the UK told the BBC.

"[Iraqi leaders] are definitely going to guarantee every single human right accorded to men as to women so there are equal opportunities," Salah al Shaikhy told BBC News 24.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/4150160.stm

Published: 2005/08/14 21:07:20 GMT
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 07:05 pm
ican wrote : " Course corrections are acceptable to me. But perhaps being an aviator, I'm biased. For example, I try to avoid flying into thunderstorms, while proceeding to my destination. But in the event I learn I cannot avoid them going directly to my intended destination, I proceed to an alternate airport and choose an alternate but still effective form of transportation".

i'll fly with you anytime, ican !

(as some "old hand" aviator commented recently after the air france plane skidded off the runway in toronto: "anytime there is a serious thunderstorm, it's best to look for an alternate airport. ... he continued : " ...usually it's money over common sense that makes the decision; a diversion costs the airline money and they don't approve of pilots taking such action".)
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 08:36 pm
hamburger wrote:

...
(as some "old hand" aviator commented recently after the air france plane skidded off the runway in toronto: "anytime there is a serious thunderstorm, it's best to look for an alternate airport. ... he continued : " ...usually it's money over common sense that makes the decision; a diversion costs the airline money and they don't approve of pilots taking such action".)


The pilot in command of an aircraft is legally, ethically, and morally responsible for the safety of her/his passengers, airline management or any one else on the ground notwithstanding.

Here's what actually took place several years ago with a Braniff flight (Braniff several years later was sold to another airline):

Pilot: "Miami approach; Braniff 1 2 3; inbound at 1 0 thousand."

Controller: "Braniff 1 2 3; Miami approach; maintain 1 0 thousand; turn to heading 1 8 0."

Pilot: "Miami approach; Braniff 1 2 3; level 5 thunderstorm on heading 1 8 0; request divert to heading 2 1 0."

Controller: "Braniff 1 2 3; Miami approach; negative; maintain 1 0 thousand; turn to heading 1 8 0."

Pilot: "Miami approach; Braniff 1 2 3; level 5 thunderstorm on heading 1 8 0; request divert to heading 1 5 0."

Controller: "Braniff 1 2 3; Miami approach; negative; maintain 1 0 thousand; turn to heading 1 8 0."

Pilot: "Miami approach; Braniff 1 2 3; declaring an emergency; squawking 7 7 0 0; diverting to heading 1 3 0; straight-in Miami."

When the captain (i.e., pilot in command) was later questioned why he decided to force Miami Air Traffic Control to divert all Miami air traffic away from his newly self-declared course by declaring an emergency and executing a straight-in approach, the captain answered:
"At that point I decided the only sane people in the universe were on my aircraft. My first duty was to them. Consequently I decided to get them safely on the ground as expeditiously as I could. Only after that was I willing to try and figure out what the hell was going on."

How's that for an incremental approach for solving a complex problem? Smile

It was later learned, the air traffic controller who attempted to direct this flight into a thunderstorm did so because he was angry that Braniff discontinued free transportation for air traffic controllers two weeks earlier. This controller was fired, fined and imprisoned.

Hmmmm! Is there some useful analogy to be made here to the responsibilities of a President of the USA to his passengers?
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 11:57 pm
Interesting observations about conditions in Hamburg after the war, Hbg. Thank you.

My uncle was in Hamburg then, and he told me he bought a ceremonial (dress uniform) dagger from a fellow there, maybe swapped for some of that food-ration tea and condensed milk, I don't know.

I think my cousin's still got it.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 05:52 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

August 15, 2005
Iraqis Consider Bypassing Sunnis on Constitution
By DEXTER FILKINS
BAGHDAD, Iraq, Aug. 14 - Iraqi leaders remained deadlocked Sunday over major issues in the country's new constitution, raising the possibility they would fail to meet the Monday deadline and push the country toward a political crisis.

With several questions unresolved, Shiite leaders said Sunday that they were considering asking the National Assembly to approve the document without the agreement of the country's Sunni leaders. Such a move would probably provoke the Sunnis, whose participation in the political process is seen as crucial in the effort to marginalize the Sunni-dominated guerrilla insurgency.

Shiite and Kurdish leaders said they were also considering giving themselves more time to reach a deal, though it was by no means certain that they could without amending the interim constitution, the law currently in force. That would require a three-fourths majority of the 275-member National Assembly.

If the deadline is not met nor the interim constitution successfully amended, the law appears to require dissolving the National Assembly and holding new elections. Shiite and Kurdish leaders said late Sunday that they were discussing that possibility, but said that they hoped to avoid it.

"That is the worst option, and we want to avoid it all costs," said Ali al-Dabbagh, one of the Shiite leaders charged with writing the new constitution.

The negotiations were stalled on a number of issues, including the role of Islam in the state, the rights of women and the distribution of power between central and regional governments. Issues that had seemed to have been settled, like the sharing of oil revenues, came unraveled.

American officials here have been pushing the Iraqis to meet the Aug. 15 deadline, arguing that any delay in the political process, devised to culminate in democratic elections in December, could risk strengthening the insurgency. A stalemate could also stall the Bush administration's plans to begin reducing the number of troops here as early as next spring.

The deadlock reflected a lack of consensus on basic questions underlying the nation's identity, a consensus which has largely eluded this country since it was carved from the ruins of the Ottoman Empire after World War I.

The disagreements run almost entirely along ethnic and sectarian lines, reflecting the deep divisions among Iraq's majority Shiites and the Kurdish and Sunni minorities.

The principal unresolved issue is whether to grant to the country's Shiite majority an autonomous region in the south. Shiite leaders are demanding that nine provinces in southern Iraq - half of the provinces in the country - be allowed to form a largely self-governing region akin to the Kurdish autonomous region in the north.

The leaders of Iraq's Sunni population staunchly oppose the Shiite demands, contending that if the Shiites and the Kurds were both granted wide powers of self-rule, there would be little left of the Iraqi state. The issue of Shiite autonomy is especially significant because the richest oil fields are situated in the extreme south of the country.

Indeed, some Sunni leaders say the Shiite demand for self-rule is largely a cover for hoarding the bulk of Iraq's oil revenues. On Sunday, an agreement on sharing oil revenues between the central and regional governments fell apart, with the Shiites demanding more control.

Under prodding from the American ambassador to Iraq, Zalmay Khalilzad, the Shiites agreed to hold off on their demands for regional autonomy, in exchange for a mechanism in the constitution that would allow them to achieve that autonomy later. Under the formula favored by the Shiites, provinces could set up autonomous regions if they secured majority votes of their people, the provincial assemblies and the National Assembly.

But Sunni leaders rejected that proposal, saying it would only slow down, but not significantly hamper, the Shiite drive for self-rule. While accepting Mr. Khalilzad's basic formula, the Sunnis said they would insist on two-thirds majorities in all the voting.

"If we accept federalism, the country will be finished," said Saleh Mutlak, a Sunni leader on the constitutional committee.

Late Sunday, after many hours of negotiating, some Shiite leaders said they were so impatient with what they described as Sunni intransigence that they began to threaten to ram the constitution through the National Assembly without Sunni support.

Theoretically, at least, that was possible. Sunnis constitute only about 20 percent of the population, and they hold virtually none of the seats in the National Assembly, in part because they boycotted national elections in January. If the Shiites and the Kurds united around the proposed constitution, they could probably secure enough votes for its approval in the National Assembly, and in the nationwide constitutional referendum scheduled for Oct. 15.

Under the rules agreed to last year, the Sunnis could defeat the constitution, but only if they could muster a two-thirds majority voting against it in 3 of Iraq's 18 provinces. The Sunnis are believed to constitute a majority in three provinces, but some Shiite leaders said they were untroubled by the prospect of a Sunni veto.

"The Sunnis have to find a two-thirds majority, and they can't," said Sami al-Askary, a Shiite member of the constitutional committee.

Pushing the constitution through without the Sunnis, though, would almost certainly bring a Sunni reaction. Sunni leaders suggested that they could back out of the political process altogether, raising the prospect of a Sunni boycott of the Oct. 15 referendum and the Dec. 15 elections.

American leaders fear that failing to bring the Sunnis along into the political process would only further intensify the insurgency, which is already attacking American forces an average of 65 times a day here.

As the Aug. 15 deadline approached, it was difficult to differentiate between credible threats and high-stakes bargaining. There were suggestions, for instance, that the Shiite leadership itself was not unified on the federalism question. One of the Shiite leaders, Abdul Aziz Hakim, the head of the Supreme Council for the Islamic revolution in Iraq, who was expected to attend a meeting of the top political leaders on Sunday night, surprised many when he failed to show up.

Among the other questions still unresolved are the role of Islam in the state, including a proposal by the Shiites to include a political role for the Shiite religious leadership in Najaf. The power granted to Islam in the new constitution could affect the rights of women, particularly if Islamic law is allowed to govern marriage and family disputes.

Iraqi leaders have still reached no agreement on the city of Kirkuk, which is divided among three ethnic groups but claimed by the Kurdish regional government. The Kurds are pushing for a timeline to reverse decades of Saddam Hussein's "Arabization" policy that would require the repatriation of tens of thousands of people.

Also on Sunday, the American command announced the deaths of five American soldiers, all from roadside bombs. In the bloodiest attack, a bomb killed three American soldiers on patrol on Friday in the city of Tuz, north of Baghdad. A fourth soldier was wounded.

On Sunday, another roadside bomb killed an American solider and wounded three others near the western town of Rutbah. A fifth American soldier was killed Saturday by a roadside bomb in western Baghdad, and another was wounded.

The propaganda war continued as well. In a statement posted on the internet, Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia warned the Sunni clerics against urging their faithful to take part in the referendum on the constitution. The warning appears to be a reaction to the fact that many Sunni preachers, in contrast to the elections in January, are urging Sunnis to vote this time.

"Be informed that this conspiracy is to get America out of the logjam that it fell into," the statement reads. "We in the Al Qaeda organization will manifest the backsliding of all who call for the writing of the constitution and arbitrating on other than God's laws."



Copyright 2005 The New York Times


source
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 08:37 am
The Iraqi parliament will reconvene any minute for more talk on the constitution. (12 noon New York time)
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 09:20 am
Distributed by American Committees on Foreign Relations, ACFR NewsGroup No. 592, Monday, August 15, 2005; the author wrote:

Lessons for an Exit Strategy

By Henry A. Kissinger
Washington Post
Friday, August 12, 2005; Page A19

There have been conflicting reports about the timing of American troop withdrawals from Iraq. Gen. George Casey, commander of U.S. forces there, has announced that the United States intends to begin a "fairly substantial" withdrawal of U.S. forces after the projected December elections establish a constitutional government. Other sources have indicated that this will involve 30,000 troops, or some 22 percent of U.S. forces in Iraq. Some high-level statements from Baghdad have indicated that the beginning of withdrawals may be delayed until next summer. On either schedule, progress is dependent upon improvements in the security situation and in the training of Iraqi forces.

A review of withdrawal strategy therefore seems in order. For one thing, how are the terms "progress" and "improvement" to be defined? In a war without front lines, does a lull indicate success or a strategic decision by the adversary? Is a decline in enemy attacks due to attrition or to a deliberate enemy strategy of conserving forces to encourage American withdrawal? Or are we in a phase similar to the aftermath of the Tet Offensive in Vietnam in 1968, which at the time was widely perceived as an American setback but is now understood as a major defeat for Hanoi?

For someone like me, who observed firsthand the anguish of the original involvement in Vietnam during the Kennedy and Johnson administrations, and who later participated in the decisions to withdraw during the Nixon administration, Casey's announcement revived poignant memories. For a decision to withdraw substantial U.S. forces while the war continues is a potentially fateful event. It affects the calculations of insurgents and government forces alike, so that the definition of progress becomes nearly as much a psychological as a military judgment. Every soldier withdrawn represents a larger percentage of the remaining total. The capacity for offensive action of the remaining forces shrinks. Once the process is started, it runs the risk of operating by momentum rather than by strategic analysis, and that process is increasingly difficult to reverse.

Despite such handicaps, the decision to replace U.S. forces with local armies during the Vietnam War -- labeled "Vietnamization" -- was, from the security viewpoint, successful on the whole. Between 1969 and the end of 1972, more than 500,000 U.S. troops were withdrawn. American involvement in ground combat ended in early 1971. U.S. casualties were reduced from an average of 400 a week in 1968 and early 1969 to an average of 20 a week in 1972.

These measures were possible because, after the failure of Hanoi's Tet Offensive, the guerrilla threat was substantially eliminated. Saigon and all other urban centers were far safer than major cities in Iraq are today. Saigon controlled perhaps 80 percent of the country with relatively well-established front lines. Vietnamese army units were increasingly able to repel offensives from the regular forces of Hanoi.

When the Vietnamese army, with substantial U.S. air support, broke the back of the North Vietnamese all-out offensive in 1972, Vietnamization could be judged a success. Shortly afterward the North Vietnamese accepted terms that they had rejected for four years. (That they did, however, does not settle the debate over whether a different withdrawal rate -- slower, faster or none at all until after a settlement -- could have speeded that day.) Three years later, these results were reversed, not because of internal violence but because of an external attack by Hanoi's conventional military force, in violation of every provision of the Paris agreement.

America's emotional exhaustion with the war and the domestic travail of Watergate had reduced economic and military aid to Vietnam by two-thirds, and Congress prohibited military support, even via airpower, to the besieged ally. None of the countries that had served as guarantors of the agreement was prepared to lift a diplomatic finger.

All this demonstrated two principles applicable to Iraq: Military success is difficult to sustain unless buttressed by domestic support. And an international framework within which the new Iraq can find its place needs to be fostered.

History, of course, never repeats itself precisely. Vietnam was a battle of the Cold War; Iraq is an episode in the struggle against radical Islam. The stake in the Cold War was perceived to be the political survival of independent nation-states allied with the United States around the Soviet periphery. The war in Iraq is less about geopolitics than about the clash of ideologies, cultures and religious beliefs. Because of the long reach of the Islamist challenge, the outcome in Iraq will have an even deeper significance than that in Vietnam. If a Taliban-type government or a fundamentalist radical state were to emerge in Baghdad or any part of Iraq, shock waves would ripple through the Islamic world. Radical forces in Islamic countries or Islamic minorities in non-Islamic states would be emboldened in their attacks on existing governments. The safety and internal stability of all societies within reach of militant Islam would be imperiled.

This is why many opponents of the decision to start the war agree with the proposition that a catastrophic outcome would have grave global consequences -- a fundamental difference from the Vietnam debate. On the other hand, the military challenge in Iraq is more elusive. Local Iraqi forces are being trained for a form of combat entirely different from the traditional land battles of the last phase of the Vietnam War. There are no front lines; the battlefield is everywhere. We face a shadowy enemy pursuing four principal objectives: (1) to expel foreigners from Iraq; (2) to penalize Iraqis cooperating with the occupation; (3) to create a chaos out of which a government of their Islamist persuasion will emerge as a model for other Islamic states; and (4) to turn Iraq into a training base for the next round of fighting, probably in moderate Arab states such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan.

North Vietnamese forces possessed heavy weapons, had sanctuaries in adjoining countries and numbered at least a half-million trained troops. Iraqi insurgents number in the tens of thousands and are lightly armed. Their most effective weapon is a homemade explosive, their most effective delivery system the suicide bomber and their most frequent targets unarmed civilians.

The Iraqi population has shown extraordinary equanimity in the face of this deliberate and systematic slaughter. In the end, its perception will determine the outcome as much as the military situation does. It will know how secure it is; it will determine the sacrifices it is prepared to make.

essence, the Iraq war is a contest over which side's assessment turns out to be correct. The insurgents are betting that by exacting a toll among supporters of the government and collaborators with America, they can frighten an increasing number of civilians into, at a minimum, staying on the sidelines, thereby undermining the government and helping the insurgents by default. The Iraqi government and the United States are counting on a different kind of attrition: that possibly the insurgents' concentration on civilian carnage is due to the relatively small number of insurgents, which obliges them to conserve manpower and to shrink from attacking hard targets; hence, the insurgency can gradually be worn down.

Because of the axiom that guerrillas win if they do not lose, stalemate is unacceptable. American strategy, including a withdrawal process, will stand or fall not on whether it maintains the existing security situation but on whether the capacity to improve it is enhanced. Victory over the insurgency is the only meaningful exit strategy.

The quality of intelligence will be crucial. Specifically, these issues require attention: How do we assess the fighting capacity of the insurgents and their strategy? To what level must attacks on civilians be reduced, and over what period, before a province can be described as pacified? What is the real combat effectiveness of Iraqi security forces, and against what kind of dangers? To what extent are the Iraqi forces penetrated by insurgents? How will Iraqi forces react to insurgent blackmail -- for example, if a general's son is kidnapped? What is the role of infiltration from neighboring countries? How can it be defeated?

Experience in Vietnam suggests that the effectiveness of local forces is profoundly affected by the political framework. South Vietnam had about 11 divisions, two in each of the four corps areas and three others constituting a reserve. In practice, only the reserve forces could be used throughout the country. The divisions defending the provinces in which they were stationed and from which they were recruited were often quite effective. They helped defeat the North Vietnamese offensive in 1972. When moved into a different and unfamiliar corps area, however, they proved far less steady. This was one of the reasons for the disasters of 1975.

The Iraqi equivalent may well be the ethnic and religious antagonisms between Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds. In Vietnam, the effectiveness of forces depended on geographic ties, but the provinces did not perceive themselves in conflict with each other. In Iraq, each of the various ethnic and religious groupings sees itself in an irreconcilable, perhaps mortal, confrontation with the others. Each group has what amounts to its own geographically concentrated militia. In the Kurdish area, for example, internal security is maintained by Kurdish forces, and the presence of the national army is kept to a minimum, if not totally prevented. The same holds true to a substantial extent in the Shiite region.

Is it then possible to speak of a national army at all? Today the Iraqi forces are in their majority composed of Shiites, and the insurrection is mostly in traditional Sunni areas. It thus foreshadows a return to the traditional Sunni-Shiite conflict, only with reversed capabilities. These forces may cooperate in quelling the Sunni insurrection. But will they, even when adequately trained, be willing to quell Shiite militias in the name of the nation? Do they obey the ayatollahs, especially Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, or the national government in Baghdad?

And if these two entities are functionally the same, can the national army make its writ run in non-Shiite areas except as an instrument of repression? And is it then still possible to maintain a democratic state?

The ultimate test of progress will therefore be the extent to which the Iraqi armed forces reflect -- at least to some degree -- the ethnic diversity of the country and are accepted by the population at large as an expression of the nation. Drawing Sunni leaders into the political process is an important part of an anti-insurgent strategy. Failing that, the process of building security forces may become the prelude to a civil war.

Can a genuine nation emerge in Iraq through constitutional means?

The answer to that question will determine whether Iraq becomes a signpost for a reformed Middle East or the pit of an ever-spreading conflict. For these reasons, a withdrawal schedule should be accompanied by some political initiative inviting an international framework for Iraq's future. Some of our allies may prefer to act as bystanders, but reality will not permit this for their own safety. Their cooperation is needed, not so much for the military as for the political task, which will test, above all, the West's statesmanship in shaping a global system relevant to its necessities.

The writer, a former secretary of state, is chairman of Kissinger Associates.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 10:17 am
From the NYT:

August 15, 2005
Facing Deadline, Iraqis Consider Bypassing Sunnis on Constitution
By DEXTER FILKINS

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Aug. 15 - Iraqi leaders remained deadlocked over major issues in the country's new constitution, raising the possibility they would fail to meet today's deadline and push the country toward a political crisis. Today, they delayed a session on whether to approve the document by two hours.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 11:11 am
http://www.bartcop.com/bushtwins_unemployment.jpg

Why haven't they enlisted to fight in the war that their father considers a "great and noble cause"?
0 Replies
 
 

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