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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2005 04:43 pm
And the Dems did support the action in Afghanistan, no?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2005 04:44 pm
Lash
Quote:
The GOP WILL back a good decision foreign policy-wise. National Security trumps politics with the GOP. Everything is a partisan gotcha game with Democrats--most Democrats.


Oh, really?

Perhaps you should try telling that to Tom DeLay:

Quote:
DeLay Still Up To Dirty Tricks

Tom DeLay thinks the federal treasury is his personal piggy bank. DeLay slipped "a $1.5 billion giveaway to the oil industry, Halliburton, and Sugar Land, Texas" into the energy bill.

But this isn't a normal case of government pork. DeLay has completely dispensed with the democratic process. From a letter Rep. Henry Waxman just sent Speaker Dennis Hastert:

Quote:
The provision was inserted into the energy legislation after the conference was closed, so members of the conference committee had no opportunity to consider or reject this measure.


The $1.5 billion won't be administered by the government by a private consortium in DeLay's district:

Quote:
The subtitle appears to steer the administration of 75% of the $1.5 billion fund to a private consortium located in the district of Majority Leader Tom DeLay. Ordinarily, a large fund like this would be administered directly by the government.


Hastert and DeLay need to explain themselves immediately. No member of Congress who takes taxpayer dollars seriously should vote for the energy bill until this matter is resolved.


Ridiculousness.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2005 04:44 pm
Yes, kicky. And that was a victory, I think, for all of us.

We not only did it back around 911, but again recently. It was heartening.

Cyclops--

Lets look at two strateegeries.

1) Check bags in a station.

2) Don't check bags in a station.

Which one has the potential to dissuade a bomber?

The Do Nothing Brigade has dulled your mind.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2005 04:49 pm
Further proof that you are disconnected from reality, Lash.

What good is it to check bags at only SOME stations? It is NO good. It is a waste of money.

I never, ever advocated 'doing nothing.' You just have no desire to hear what I have to say; that we will not be able to stop suicide terrorism in the States if a significant amount of people decide to engage in it.

Therefore the intelligent thing to do is to try to figure out why people are engaging in terrorism and stop that. Searching bags does nothing.

You don't want real solutions, you want EASY solutions, which in this case doesn't work, and they are more dangerous than doing nothing; they create a false sense of security, and cost money!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2005 04:58 pm
cyclop--

You go figure out what the Muslims want. When you figure out it's you bending down to worship their god five times a day and ripping your daughter's clitoris out and killing me because I refuse to do it-- will you do it?

That'll stop the terrorism. Osama has said all you have to do it convert, stop your immorality and gambling and adopt Sharia law....

I appreciate you sacrificing your freedom for the rest of us. I'd rather fight than switch.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2005 05:05 pm
Guess you've signed up to go to Iraq, then? Because what you are doing right now? It isn't fighting. Just to let you know.

You have no f*cking clue what the terrorists want, though you do seem to be quite the bigot when it comes to Religion. You just parrot the same old fear talking points over and over...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2005 05:21 pm
To reduce army enlistments, convince young people:
1. The administration is no damn good;
2. The army is dedicated to abusing its prisoners;
3. The army will break its commitments to all its enlistees;
4. The army is suffering enormous casualties.

To reduce the effectiveness of our domestic effort to thwart terroism convince the public:
1. The objectives of our efforts to stop terrorists before they terrorize are merely schemes to panic the public;
2. Because we cannot stop all terrorism we should not try to stop any terrorism;
3. It's better to risk being murdered by terrorists than it is to require randomly selected people to reveal the contents of what they are carrying;
4. It's better to risk being murdered by terrorists than it is to require selected people to reveal the contents of what they are carrying;
5. It's better to risk being murdered by terrorists than it is to require all people to reveal the contents of what they are carrying;
6. If the USA pulls out of the Middle East, terrorists will stop killing us;
7. Of the three alleged inalienable rights of everyone, pursuit of happiness has the highest priority, liberty has the next highest priority, and life has the least priority.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2005 05:57 pm
Cyclops--

That's so tired. You do yourself a disservice to trot that old crap out. If I was a New Yorker, I'd consider myself in a war zone, like Madrid, London, and several other major cities. As an American, I consider myself a part of my country's struggle. If I am needed and able, this fight is worth the ultimate sacrifice. The threat of losing one's freedom may be the only issue which would uproot your average person from their daily life--and send them out to volunteer locally if they can help-- or where ever they were able to go.

You are the one with no fvckin clue. Your namby-pamby coddling of those who would saw your head off may just earn you that reward. Read Osama Bin Laden's Letter to America. Read what he wants from you.

Unfortunately for you, people like me do know what the fvck we're talking about. There are some of us who aren't getting our talking points from blogs and moveon.org and Micheakl Moore. We are reading about Islam, Bin Laden, and related history. Why don't you get some information?

You're ignorant of what is at stake--what is happening and what should be done about it. This is no time to play partisan politics.









i may be faced with making sacrifices.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2005 06:11 pm
Lash wrote:
Maybe. I may have given up on any semblance of realism here.

The man referred to in the article merely acted like an ass and distracted police officers from much more important things. Anyone can find an imperfection in our safety because you can never be 100% safe. Who doesn't know that? But to make sport of officers who have a horrendous job is disgusting to me. He was so smugly self-congratulatory.

And this--and other ignoble jabs by the left toward our own country, our own safety, our own attempts to make sense of what is happening in the world and our own attempts to respond to it the best way we know how-------and then meeting the derisive Democrats, as if they are jeering spectators, rather than partners-- makes me sick.

They may as well be on the side of the terrorists. They're not helping my country.


I'm on your side here, sort of. Just by chance, I haven't been on the subway since the bagcheck policy has been initiated but I have no problem with such inspections whatsoever. The reason for them, after London, is self-evident. The chap quoted in CI's piece is something of a fool, apparently.

But your last two paragraphs here aren't agreeable. There are good, reasoned arguments against this administration's decisions and policies - ongoing.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2005 06:15 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Guess you've signed up to go to Iraq, then? Because what you are doing right now? It isn't fighting. Just to let you know.

You have no f*cking clue what the terrorists want, though you do seem to be quite the bigot when it comes to Religion. You just parrot the same old fear talking points over and over...

Cycloptichorn


Here's a "f*cking clue (boldface emphasis added):"
Quote:
All praises be to Allah and peace be upon His messenger, Prophet Muhammad, his families, companions and whoever follows:

Al-Qaida Statement Warning Muslims Against Associating With The Crusaders And Idols
Jun 09, 2004

Once again, we repeat our call and send this clear message to our Muslim brothers, warning against fellowship with the Crusaders, the Americans, Westerners and all idols in the Arab Gulf. Muslims should not associate with them anywhere, be it in their homes, complexes or travel with them by any means of transportation.

Prophet Muhammad said "I am free from who lives among idols".

No Muslim should risk his life as he may inadvertently be killed if he associates with the Crusaders, whom we have no choice but to kill.

Everything related to them such as complexes, bases, means of transportation, especially Western and American Airlines, will be our main and direct targets in our forthcoming operations on our path of Jihad that we, with Allah's Power, will not turn away from.

We confirm and repeat this statement in support of the Ummah (Islam nation), caring for our Muslim brothers' blood for who we undertake these operations, to defend them, their religion, honor and lands and to be free from those who disobey Allah's Orders and continue to live with the Crusaders thereby gaining an evil omen.

We further repeat our warning to the officials and those who guard the American complexes and who stand with America and its hired help, who takes up arms against the Mujahideen for defending for them and their interests such as the Saudi government and others who choose to support the idol’s regime over the Islamic one. We call them to repent, separate and to hate idols by fighting them with money, tongues and arms.

Our prayer to Allah is that we may assist His religion and spread His word and we ask to be given His enemies. Allah alone is sufficient and the end belongs to the pious believers. There is no aggression except upon oppressors. Praise be to Allah is our last worship.


Here's another, an excerpt (boldface emphasis added):
Osama (emphasis added) wrote:
Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders
World Islamic Front Statement
23 February 1998
All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al-Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said: "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."


Here's another, an excerpt (boldface emphasis added):
Quote:
"Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places." August, 1996

Praise be to Allah, we seek His help and ask for his pardon. we take refuge in Allah from our wrongs and bad deeds. Who ever been guided by Allah will not be misled, and who ever has been misled, he will never be guided. I bear witness that there is no God except Allah-no associates with Him- and I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and messenger.

{O you who believe! be careful of -your duty to- Allah with the proper care which is due to Him, and do not die unless you are Muslim} (Imraan; 3:102), {O people be careful of -your duty to- your Lord, Who created you from a single being and created its mate of the same -kind- and spread from these two, many men and women; and be careful of -your duty to- Allah , by whom you demand one of another -your rights-, and (be careful) to the ties of kinship; surely Allah ever watches over you} (An-Nisa; 4:1), {O you who believe! be careful- of your duty- to Allah and speak the right word; He will put your deeds into a right state for you, and forgive you your faults; and who ever obeys Allah and his Apostle, he indeed achieve a mighty success} (Al-Ahzab; 33:70-71).

Praise be to Allah, reporting the saying of the prophet Shu'aib: {I desire nothing but reform so far as I am able, and with non but Allah is the direction of my affair to the right and successful path; on him do I rely and to him do I turn} (Hud; 11:88).

Praise be to Allah, saying: {You are the best of the nations raised up for -the benefit of- men; you enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and believe in Allah} (Aal-Imraan; 3:110). Allah's blessing and salutations on His slave and messenger who said: (The people are close to an all encompassing punishment from Allah if they see the oppressor and fail to restrain him.)
...
Few days ago the news agencies had reported that the Defence Secretary of the Crusading Americans had said that "the explosion at Riyadh and Al-Khobar had taught him one lesson: that is not to withdraw when attacked by coward terrorists".

We say to the Defence Secretary that his talk can induce a grieving mother to laughter! and shows the fears that had enshrined you all. Where was this false courage of yours when the explosion in Beirut took place on 1983 AD (1403 A.H). You were turned into scattered pits and pieces at that time; 241 mainly marines solders were killed. And where was this courage of yours when two explosions made you to leave Aden in lees than twenty four hours!

But your most disgraceful case was in Somalia; where- after vigorous propaganda about the power of the USA and its post cold war leadership of the new world order- you moved tens of thousands of international force, including twenty eight thousands American solders into Somalia. However, when tens of your solders were killed in minor battles and one American Pilot was dragged in the streets of Mogadishu you left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead with you. Clinton appeared in front of the whole world threatening and promising revenge , but these threats were merely a preparation for withdrawal. You have been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the extent of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a pleasure for the "heart" of every Muslim and a remedy to the "chests" of believing nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities of Beirut , Aden and Mogadishu.


Here's others, an excerpt (boldface emphasis added) from Wikipedia, List of Terrorist incidents:

1996
January: In Kizlyar, 350 Chechen militants took 3,000 hostages in a hospital. The attempt to free them kills 65 civilians and soldiers.
January: Provisional Irish Republican Army plants a bomb that police defuse at the Canary Wharf towers in London.
January 31: Central Bank Bombing in Sri Lanka kills 90 and wounds 1,400.
February 9: IRA bombs the South Quay DLR station, killing two people.
June 15: Manchester bombing by IRA.
June 25: Khobar Towers bombing.
July 27: Centennial Olympic Park bombing, killing one and wounding 111.
A series of four suicide bombings in Israel leave 60 dead and 284 wounded within 10 days.

1997
February 24: An armed man opens fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, United States, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claims this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine".
November 17: Luxor Massacre – Islamist gunmen attack tourists in Luxor, Egypt, killing 62 people, most of them European and Japanese vacationers.
December 22: Acteal massacre – 46 killed while praying in Acteal, Chiapas, Mexico. A paramilitary group associated with ex-president Salinas is held responsible.

1998
January : Wandhama Massacre - 24 Kashmiri Pandits are massacred by Pakistan-backed insurgents in Indian controlled Kashmir city of Wandhama .
August 7: U.S. embassy bombings in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and Nairobi, Kenya, killing 225 people and injuring more than 4,000.
August 15: Omagh bombing by the so-called "Real IRA" kills 29.

1999
January 3: Gunmen open fire on Shi'a Muslims worshipping in an Islamabad mosque, killing 16 people injuring 25.
April: David Copeland's nail bomb attacks against ethnic minorities and gays in London kill three people and injure over 160.
August 31 – September 22: Russian Apartment Bombings kills about 300 people, leading Russia into Second Chechen War.
December: Jordanian authorities foil a plot to bomb US and Israeli tourists in Jordan and pick up 28 suspects as part of the 2000 millennium attack plots
December 14: Ahmed Ressam is arrested on the United States–Canada border in Port Angeles, Washington; he confessed to planning to bomb the Los Angeles International Airport as part of the 2000 millennium attack plots
December 24: Indian Airlines Flight 814from Kathmandu, Nepal to Delhi, India is hijacked. One passenger is killed and some hostages are released. After negotiations between the Taliban and the Indian government, the last of the remaining hostages on board Flight 814 are released.

2000
Terrorism against Israel in 2000.
The last of the 2000 millennium attack plots fails, as the boat meant to bomb USS The Sullivans sinks. German police foil Strasbourg cathedral bombing plot.
June 8: Stephen Saunders, a British Defense Attaché, was assassinated by Revolutionary Organization 17 November in Athens.
October 12: USS Cole bombing kills 17 US sailors.

2001
Terrorism against Israel in 2001.
February 5: A bomb blast in Moscow's Byelorusskaya metro station injures 15 people.
August 9: A suicide bomber in Jerusalem kills seven and wounds 130 in the Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing; Hamas and Islamic Jihad claim responsibility.
"9/11": The attacks on September 11 kill almost 3,000 in a series of hijacked airliner crashes into two U.S. landmarks: the World Trade Center in New York City, New York, and The Pentagon in Arlington, Virginia. A fourth plane crashes in Somerset County, Pennsylvania.
Paris embassy attack plot foiled.

October 21: A car bomb explodes near the Jammu and Kashmir state assembly in Srinagar, India killing 35 people and injuring 40 more.
Anthrax attacks on the offices the United States Congress and New York State Government offices, and on employees of television networks and tabloid.
December 13: Terrorist attack on Indian Parliament.
Jewish Defense League plot to blow up the King Fahd Mosque in Culver City, California, foiled.
Richard Reid, attempting to destroy American Airlines Flight 63, is subdued by passengers and flight attendants before he could detonate his shoe bomb.

2002
Terrorism against Israel in 2002.
Singapore embassies attack plot foiled.
January: Kidnapping and murder of journalist Daniel Pearl.
March 24: Twenty people die and 93 are injured in three bomb attacks on Russian towns near the border of Chechnya.
March 27: A Palestinian suicide bomber kills 30 and injures 140 during Passover festivities in a hotel in Netanya, Israel in the Netanya suicide attack.
March 31: A Hamas suicide bomber kills 15 and injures over 40 in Haifa, Israel, in the Matza restaurant massacre.
April 11: A natural gas truck fitted with explosives is driven into a synagogue in Tunisia by an al-Qaeda member, killing 21 and wounding more than 30 in the Ghriba Synagogue Attack.
May 8: Bus Attack in Karachi.
May 9: A bomb explosion in Kaspiisk in Dagestan kills at least 42 people and injures 130 or more during Victory Day festivities.
June 14: Attack outside U.S. Consulate in Karachi.
July 4: An Egyptian gunman opens fire at an El Al ticket counter in Los Angeles International Airport, killing 2 Israelis before being killed himself.
October 2002: Beltway Sniper Attacks around the Washington metropolitan area kill 10 people and leave the region paranoid for weeks, caused by domestic terrorists.
October 6: Limburg tanker bombing in Yemen.
October 12: Bali car bombing of holidaymakers kills 202 people, mostly Western tourists and local Balinese hospitality staff.
October 17: Zamboanga bombings in the Philippines kill six and wounds about 150.
October 18: A bus bomb in Manila kills three people and wounds 22.
October 19: A car bomb explodes outside a McDonald's Corp. restaurant in Moscow, killing one person and wounding five.
October 23: Moscow theater hostage crisis begins; 120 hostages and 40 terrorists killed in rescue three days later.
November 28: Kenyan hotel bombing.

2003
Terrorism against Israel in 2003.
February 7: Car bomb kills 36 and injures 150 at the El Nogal nightclub in Bogota, Colombia; FARC rebels are blamed.
March 4: Bomb attack in an airport in Davao kills 21.
May 12: Bombings of United States expat housing compounds in Saudi Arabia kill 26 and injure 160 in the Riyadh Compound Bombings. Al-Qaeda blamed.
May 12: A truck bomb attack on a government building in the Chechen town of Znamenskoye kills 59.
May 14: As many as 16 die in a suicide bombing at a religious festival in southeastern Chechnya.
May 16: Casablanca Attacks by 12 bombers on five "Western and Jewish" targets in Casablanca, Morocco leaves 41 dead and over 100 injured. Attack attributed to a Moroccan al-Qaeda-linked group.
July 5: 15 people die and 40 are injured in bomb attacks at a rock festival in Moscow.
August 1: An explosion at the Russian hospital in Mozdok in North Ossetia kills at least 50 people and injures 76.
August 19: Canal Hotel Bombing in Baghdad, Iraq, kills 22 people (including the top UN representative Sergio Vieira de Mello) and wounds over 100.
August 25: At least 48 people were killed and 150 injured in two blasts in south Mumbai - one near the Gateway of India at the other at the Zaveri Bazaar.
August 29: Car bomb outside Imam Ali Mosque in Najaf, Iraq, kills more than 80 people, including SCIRI leader Sayed Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim.
September 3: A bomb blast on a passenger train near Kislovodsk in southern Russia kills seven people and injures 90.
October 4: A Palestinian suicide bomber kills 21 and wounds 51 in a Haifa restaurant in the Maxim restaurant massacre.
October 15: A bomb is detonated by Palestinians against a US diplomatic convoy in the Gaza Strip, killing three Americans.
November 15 and November 20: Truck bombs go off at two synagogues, the British Consulate, and the HSBC Bank in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 57 and wounding 700 in the 2003 Istanbul Bombings.
December 5: Suicide bombers kill at least 46 people in an attack on a train in southern Russia
December 9: A blast in the center of Moscow kills six people and wounds at least 11.

2004
Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict 2004.
February 1: 109 Kurds are killed in 2 suicide bombings in Arbil, Iraq.
February 6: Bomb on Moscow Metro kills 41.
February 27: Superferry 14 is bombed in the Philippines by Abu Sayyaf, killing 116.
March 2: Ashoura Massacre: Suicide bombings at Shia holy sites in Iraq kill 181 and wound more than 500 during the Ashura.
March 2: Attack on procession of Shia Muslims in Pakistan kills 43 and wounds 160.
March 9: Attack of Istanbul restaurant in Turkey.
March 11: Coordinated bombing of commuter trains in Madrid, Spain, kills 191 people and injures more than 1,500.
April 21: Basra bombs in Iraq kill 74 and injure hundreds.
April 21: Bombing of a security building in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills 5.
May 29: Al-Khobar massacres, in which Islamic militants kill 22 people at an oil compound in Saudi Arabia.
August 24: Russian airplane bombings kill 90.
August 31: A blast near a subway station entrance in northern Moscow, caused by a suicide bomber, kills 10 people and injures 33.
September 1 – 3: Beslan school hostage crisis in North Ossetia, Russia, results in 344 dead.
September 9: Jakarta embassy bombing, in which the Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia was bombed, killing eight people.
October 7: Three car bombs explode in the Sinai Peninsula, killing at least 34 and wounding 114, many of them Israeli and other foreign tourists.
December 6: Suspected al Qaeda-linked group attacks U.S. consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, killing 5 local employees.
December 12: A bombing at the Christmas market in General Santos, Philippines, kills 15.

2005
February 28: About 125 Iraqis killed by a suicide car bomb outside a medical centre in Hilla, south of Baghdad.
March 19: Car bomb attack on theatre in Doha, Qatar, kills one Briton and wounds 12 others.
April: April 2005 terrorist attacks in Cairo – On April 7 a suicide bomber blows himself up in Cairo's Khan al Khalili market, killing three foreign tourists and wounding 17 others. In two further attacks on 30 April, suspected accomplices detonate a bomb and spray a tourist coach with gunfire.
June 1: A suicide bomber blows up in a mosque in Kandahar, Afghanistan, killing 20 people.
July 5: Six terrorists belonging to Lashkar-e-Toiba storm the Ayodhya Ram Janmbhomi complex in India. Before the terrorists could reach the main disputed site, they were shot down by Indian security forces. One devotee and two policemen were injured.
Wikinews has a related story:
Coordinated terrorist attack in LondonJuly 7: 7 July 2005 London bombings - Attacks on one double-decker bus and three London Underground trains, killing 55+ people and injuring over 700, occur on the first day of the 31st G8 Conference.
July 21: 21 July 2005 London bombings - Small explosions in 3 London Underground stations and one double-decker bus. This was pronounced as an "incident" than an attack, and only minor injuries were reported.
July 23:Sharm el-Sheikh bombings: Car bombs explode at tourist sites in Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt, killing at least 88 and wounding more than 100.[/quote]

Now that you, Cycloptichorn, have received all these "f*cking clues," do you have a "f*cking clue" about what should be done to end or even reduce terrorism?

[size=8]I bet your answer is ignore all these "f*cking clues."[/size]
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2005 06:22 pm
Blatham--

I was very pleasantly surprised that you didn't applaud the guy in CI's article.

I want you to know that I understand and respect authentic differences of opinion with Bush administration policy. What has shortened my tolerance for this --is the seeming uniformity of disagreement with EVERYTHING the government is trying to do to combat terrorism's successes by the opposing political party.

I will tiredly thank you for expressing limited, but welcomed, agreement.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 06:26 am
Lash, what are seeing is a difference of opinion in the way to handle things between the left and the right. Bush does everything in an uninformative conservative way so naturally the left is going to object to his way of doing things.

For instance, some people thought it would have been better to have finished one war and actually do it right rather than start to work on going to another war before catching the bad guys-namely Bin Laden.

Some people thought that we did not use all of options in regards to Iraq before going to war.

Some people thought in order to sell the war of Iraq to the American people the administration began a campaign of dishonesty and stretching the truth.

Some people thought when the administration forced this war on us they didn't plan worth a hoot and left our troops under armed and were clueless about what to do after toppling Saddam Hussein.

Some people think that everything that has happened in Iraq was the result of poor judgment and planning on the part of the administration.

Some people think that because of the way the administration tried to deal with the detainees in getting around the GC and other international laws which in the past have been honored has encouraged and given permission for the abuses to take place and then when they were actually carried out and the world was shocked they had made scapegoats out the ones who carried out their wishes.

Some people think when we point that out we are doing our duty as American citizens so that next time we go picking a President we don't fall for gimmicks and slogans but rather well thought out plans and reason.

When there is nothing the administration does that meet with approval there is nothing to agree about.

However speaking for me there is one action that the administration has done that I do approve of and that is his actions regarding Israel and Palestine. I also agreed with the Afghanistan war. Otherwise there is nothing either domestically or foreign that I agree with the President about and I can't just fake it to be agreeable.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 08:48 am
Not only that, but not long ago, this administration made the statement that we are not going to set a time line by which to pull out our troops from Iraq because that'll give the terrorists information that they can wait out. Well, lo and behold, one of the top brass is now saying (today) that we can pull out most of our troops next year. Anybody confused yet?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 09:26 am
revel wrote:
Lash, what are seeing is a difference of opinion in the way to handle things between the left and the right. Bush does everything in an uninformative conservative way so naturally the left is going to object to his way of doing things.

For instance, some people thought it would have been better to have finished one war and actually do it right rather than start to work on going to another war before catching the bad guys-namely Bin Laden.

Some of the bad guys (i.e., malignancy), including bin Laden, fled Afghanistan after we invaded Afghanistan. So some of us thought it would be a good idea to also attack that country with the most murderous government that allowed the malignancy sanctuary.

Some people thought that we did not use all of options in regards to Iraq before going to war.

Some of us thought we waited too dangerously long to invade Iraq.

Some people thought in order to sell the war of Iraq to the American people the administration began a campaign of dishonesty and stretching the truth.

Some of us think the administration, while partially wrong, believed all that they said. Some of us think the administration was right when they said that they believed that our enemy were terrorists and all those who harbored them. Some of us think the administration was wrong when it said Saddam's regime possessed ready-to-use WMD.

Some people thought when the administration forced this war on us they didn't plan worth a hoot and left our troops under armed and were clueless about what to do after toppling Saddam Hussein.

Some of us think Congress authorized the President to invade Iraq if he thought that necessary. Some of us think the removal of the Saddam regime was planned and executed brilliantly. Some of us think that the restoration of a peaceful Iraq was planned and executed badly.

Some people think that everything that has happened in Iraq was the result of poor judgment and planning on the part of the administration.

Some of us think the removal of the Saddam regime was the result of good judgment and planning on the part of the administration, but the failures in the restoration of a peaceful Iraq were the result of poor judgment and planning on the part of the administration.

Some people think that because of the way the administration tried to deal with the detainees in getting around the GC and other international laws which in the past have been honored has encouraged and given permission for the abuses to take place and then when they were actually carried out and the world was shocked they had made scapegoats out the ones who carried out their wishes.

Some of us think that the GC does not apply to those who do not honor the GC when dealing with people they detain. Some of us think that all we are obligated to do is avoid killing, maiming, and disabling such prisoners.

Some people think when we point that out we are doing our duty as American citizens so that next time we go picking a President we don't fall for gimmicks and slogans but rather well thought out plans and reason.

Some of us think that the last two losing candidates offered nothing more than gimmicks and slogans without any plans or reason. Some of us think the winner did provide plans and reasons some of which were not well thought out.

When there is nothing the administration does that meet with approval there is nothing to agree about.

Some of us think that when some things meet with approval then there is somethings to agree with and somethings to disagree with.

However speaking for me there is one action that the administration has done that I do approve of and that is his actions regarding Israel and Palestine. I also agreed with the Afghanistan war. Otherwise there is nothing either domestically or foreign that I agree with the President about and I can't just fake it to be agreeable.

Some of us agree that such an opinion is a rational opinion even though we disagree with some of it. Some of us also think that there is more to approve of (see above). Some of us think this war the malignancy has declared against us is extremely complicated and difficult to determine what in fact is the best way to deal with it. Some of us think the malignancy constitutes a new and very deadly religion whose evangelicals are particularly persuasive in enlisting the capable, well educated and easily frightened. Some of us think that the best we can do is keep trying different ways to conduct this war until we find a way that works.

.............

I'm scheduled to have it all perfectly figured out by next Tuesday, but I'm way, way ...way behind schedule. How about you? Smile

0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 09:35 am
I have got an idea what we should be doing about the terrorists:
We should stop f*cking with their homeland.

Now don't start quoting me about home-based terrorists; these get their orders, training, finance and ideology from the ME.

One thing's for sure, we can't bomb them out of existence.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 09:35 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Not only that, but not long ago, this administration made the statement that we are not going to set a time line by which to pull out our troops from Iraq because that'll give the terrorists information that they can wait out. Well, lo and behold, one of the top brass is now saying (today) that we can pull out most of our troops next year. Anybody confused yet?


Oh my God! The administration changed its mind again! Crying or Very sad

Hopefully they will keep changing their mind until they find a way to restore a peaceful self-governing Iraq. However, if you think you already know the correct way, post it.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 10:49 am
Ican,

The message is clear. They want us out of their holy lands and out of their sphere of influence, ie, the Middle East. They are willing to blow a lot of people, including themselves, up, to see this happen.

There is no indication whatsoever, as Lash foolishly claims, that OBL seeks to convert every Christian to Islaam or kill them in the process. None.

Lash
Quote:
Unfortunately for you, people like me do know what the **** we're talking about. There are some of us who aren't getting our talking points from blogs and moveon.org and Micheakl Moore. We are reading about Islam, Bin Laden, and related history. Why don't you get some information?


First of all, I don't apologize for 'dragging that tired argument out.' It isn't tired. Listen to me:

YOU ARE NOT FIGHTING OR STRUGGLING

YOU ARE SITTING IN FRONT OF A COMPUTER TYPING

AND TRYING TO MAINTAIN A 4.0

Just to make that clear for you, since it doesn't seem to be at all clear.

I don't listen to Micheal Moore. I didn't even see his stupid movie. I'm not a member of MoveOn.org and I don't go to their site. Why is it you Righties can't believe that people would come to these conclusions based upon their own research?

And there is no doubt in my mind, NONE, that I've forgotten more about the history and modern-day status of Islaam and Bin Laden then you've ever learned. I've been studying this for over five years, daily. You make crazy claims such as this but then show absolutely no knowledge about what the goal of Bin Laden is: the reformation of Dar Al-Islaam. It has nothing to do with Americans converting or dying, no matter what crazy screeds you have decided matter.

You get your talking points straight from the RNC. You are an openly Bigoted person towards Islaam as evidenced by your post on the last page. Frankly, you are not qualified to be discussing issues such as this.

Good day

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 11:04 am
Ican my point was simply that I honestly believe what I have said here these last months and do not want to just bash the president. I still stand by my statements and I understand you disagree but my point was not to rehash arguements but merely to state that I honestly believe everything I have ever written.

There is much I don't understand and I realily admit that but I have researched and followed as much information as I can find and it is based on that research that i base my beliefs from, right or wrong. Most of my information has been straight off the pages of yahoo news and from there I just follow the links to such news sites as washington post and the NYT, both sources are good sources in my opinion.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 11:49 am
Reliance on Pakistan as an ally on the War on Terror was a shaky move to begin with, and now is looking like a complete mistake.

Quote:


Page 2 and 3 in the link:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-pakban28jul28,1,5876673.story?page=1&coll=la-headlines-world&ctrack=1&cset=true

This 'partnership' has already cost us Mucho time and effort when it comes to stopping the Taliban and catching Bin Laden.

I would recommend that we take care of these chumps, but seeing as pretty much all of our forces are tied up trying to keep Iraq under control, we can't very well do that, can we? Nice work, Bush

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 03:04 pm
Quote:
Iraq Affecting Mental Health of Troops
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: July 28, 2005
Filed at 4:44 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A survey of troops returning from the Iraq war found 30 percent had developed mental health problems three to four months after coming home, the Army's surgeon general said Thursday.

The problems include anxiety, depression, nightmares, anger and an inability to concentrate, according to Lt. Gen. Kevin Kiley and other military medical officials. A smaller group, usually with more severe cases of these symptoms, is diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Iraq-US-Military-Health.html

And this quite aside from the blown off limbs and missing eyes. Meanwhile, Cheney and friends sip good wine and wait for the roast duck and suckling pig to be delivered to their tables nestled in the shade of the tiki tiki trees.
0 Replies
 
 

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