Ican,
The message is clear. They want us out of their holy lands and out of their sphere of influence, ie, the Middle East. They are willing to blow a lot of people, including themselves, up, to see this happen.
There is no indication whatsoever, as Lash foolishly claims, that OBL seeks to convert every Christian to Islaam or kill them in the process. None.
Cycloptichorn
All praises be to Allah and peace be upon His messenger, Prophet Muhammad, his families, companions and whoever follows:
Al-Qaida Statement Warning Muslims Against Associating With The Crusaders And Idols
Jun 09, 2004
Once again, we repeat our call and send this clear message to our Muslim brothers, warning against fellowship with the Crusaders, the Americans, Westerners and all idols in the Arab Gulf. Muslims should not associate with them anywhere, be it in their homes, complexes or travel with them by any means of transportation.
Prophet Muhammad said "I am free from who lives among idols".
No Muslim should risk his life as he may inadvertently be killed if he associates with the Crusaders, whom we have no choice but to kill.
Everything related to them such as complexes, bases, means of transportation, especially Western and American Airlines, will be our main and direct targets in our forthcoming operations on our path of Jihad that we, with Allah's Power, will not turn away from.
We confirm and repeat this statement in support of the Ummah (Islam nation), caring for our Muslim brothers' blood for who we undertake these operations, to defend them, their religion, honor and lands and to be free from those who disobey Allah's Orders and continue to live with the Crusaders thereby gaining an evil omen.
We further repeat our warning to the officials and those who guard the American complexes and who stand with America and its hired help, who takes up arms against the Mujahideen for defending for them and their interests such as the Saudi government and others who choose to support the idol’s regime over the Islamic one. We call them to repent, separate and to hate idols by fighting them with money, tongues and arms.
Our prayer to Allah is that we may assist His religion and spread His word and we ask to be given His enemies. Allah alone is sufficient and the end belongs to the pious believers. There is no aggression except upon oppressors. Praise be to Allah is our last worship.
Al-Qaida Organization of the Arab Gulf
19 Rabbi Al-Akhir 1425
Ican,
The message is clear. They want us out of their holy lands and out of their sphere of influence, ie, the Middle East. They are willing to blow a lot of people, including themselves, up, to see this happen.
There is no indication whatsoever, as Lash foolishly claims, that OBL seeks to convert every Christian to Islaam or kill them in the process. None.
He wrote a Letter to America. Why don't you read it? Why make crap up when you can educate yourself? Read what he said.
Lash
Quote:Unfortunately for you, people like me do know what the **** we're talking about. There are some of us who aren't getting our talking points from blogs and moveon.org and Micheakl Moore. We are reading about Islam, Bin Laden, and related history. Why don't you get some information?
First of all, I don't apologize for 'dragging that tired argument out.' It isn't tired. Listen to me:
YOU ARE NOT FIGHTING OR STRUGGLING
Are you?
YOU ARE SITTING IN FRONT OF A COMPUTER TYPING
Are you?
And there is no doubt in my mind, NONE, that I've forgotten more about the history and modern-day status of Islaam and Bin Laden then you've ever learned.
Oh. You're so smart! If you know so much, why isn't anything you say correct or supportable...? Have you ever said anything about terrorism, Bin Laden or Isfreakinlam that you can support wiht evidence...???? If you know so much, let's hear something you can support.
I've been studying this for over five years, daily.
Yeah, right. LOL!!!.
You make crazy claims such as this but then show absolutely no knowledge about what the goal of Bin Laden is: the reformation of Dar Al-Islaam. It has nothing to do with Americans converting or dying, no matter what crazy screeds you have decided matter.
So, now you know more about what Osama wants than he does...? I should have expected as much. Are you writing the history you're reading, as well? So you claim the Letter To America by Osama Bin Laden was a forgery? What--did he call you? Likely. You're damn well doing his leg work.
You get your talking points straight from the RNC.
Which talking points are those?
You are an openly Bigoted person towards Islaam as evidenced by your post on the last page.
You're openly bigoted against America, which is evidenced in most everything you write.
Frankly, you are not qualified to be discussing issues such as this.
I've shown a great deal of understanding about several geopolitical issues. You've shown nothing. Except cowardice and a preference for terrorists over the West.
Your emotional rhetoric sounds much more like you are a Muslim than it does a non-Muslim, "who has studied for five years." Why don't you say so?
I say to you, Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers. But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind.
You go figure out what the Muslims want. When you figure out it's you bending down to worship their god five times a day and ripping your daughter's clitoris out and killing me because I refuse to do it-- will you do it?
That'll stop the terrorism. Osama has said all you have to do it convert, stop your immorality and gambling and adopt Sharia law....
Your emotional rhetoric sounds much more like you are a Muslim than it does a non-Muslim, "who has studied for five years." Why don't you say so?
'Bigoted against America,' Right, lol
And I'm no more a Muslim than I am a Christian or a Buddhist or a Hindu. I think the whole lot of religious people are crazy; but that's just me.
You are obviously a proponent of the virulent form of Islam. You agree with Bin Laden's demands and say we should do as he says.
If you have bothered to read the things OBL has written over the years, you will see that he lists his primary reasons for aggression against America as being our military bases in Saudi Arabia, and the things he saw the Jews do in Palestine.
I have read some of what he has written. I am not willing to allow a terrorist to direct foreign policy. I am not willing to turn my back on Israel. I declare a fatwa against Palestine, for the things I've seen them do to their own children. I can't believe you buy that crap. Don't like Jews, do you cyclops?
Does he go on about our immorality? Yes. But they also call for us to stop supporting Israel and to get the hell out of their lands.
Do you know why we're in Saudi? Do you know about Saudi's background with the Wahhabis, the US--and Saudi's humiliation of OBL??
In OBL's 1998 Fatwah, found here:
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm
You will note that he lists American bases in Saudi Arabia and our support of the Jews as the reasons for Fatwah. It says nothing about hating America or immorality or any of that. He also lists our continuing bombing of Iraq as a primary reason.
LOL!!! The continuing bombing of Iraq...Wasn't he pretty thick into the terrorist business before that...? You may want to hop to a terrorist's tune, but thank God you are in the minority. You talk like he's your hero.
From a Nov. 2004 transalation of a Bin Laden tape"
Quote:I say to you, Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers. But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind.
You seem to agree with him politically. Maybe you would like to hear more about what he has to say. Maybe they have a Big Brother program in Afghanistan. <Oh yeah. They call it Al Quaeda.>
Quote:Your emotional rhetoric sounds much more like you are a Muslim than it does a non-Muslim, "who has studied for five years." Why don't you say so?
Only you would think that accusing me of being a Muslim would be some sort of insult. You really are beneath my contempt.
Back at you, but as I said, asking you if you're a muslim is not considered an insult, yet--though I'm sure the PC crowd has taken it under advisement. I just think you are. If there's no harm in BEING a Muslim, surely there's no harm in ASKING if you are ..
Ican,
The message is clear. They want us out of their holy lands and out of their sphere of influence, ie, the Middle East. They are willing to blow a lot of people, including themselves, up, to see this happen.
There is no indication whatsoever, as Lash foolishly claims, that OBL seeks to convert every Christian to Islaam or kill them in the process. None.
Cycloptichorn
All praises be to Allah and peace be upon His messenger, Prophet Muhammad, his families, companions and whoever follows:
Al-Qaida Statement Warning Muslims Against Associating With The Crusaders And Idols
Jun 09, 2004
Once again, we repeat our call and send this clear message to our Muslim brothers, warning against fellowship with the Crusaders, the Americans, Westerners and all idols in the Arab Gulf. Muslims should not associate with them anywhere, be it in their homes, complexes or travel with them by any means of transportation.
Prophet Muhammad said "I am free from who lives among idols".
No Muslim should risk his life as he may inadvertently be killed if he associates with the Crusaders, whom we have no choice but to kill.
Everything related to them such as complexes, bases, means of transportation, especially Western and American Airlines, will be our main and direct targets in our forthcoming operations on our path of Jihad that we, with Allah's Power, will not turn away from.
We confirm and repeat this statement in support of the Ummah (Islam nation), caring for our Muslim brothers' blood for who we undertake these operations, to defend them, their religion, honor and lands and to be free from those who disobey Allah's Orders and continue to live with the Crusaders thereby gaining an evil omen.
We further repeat our warning to the officials and those who guard the American complexes and who stand with America and its hired help, who takes up arms against the Mujahideen for defending for them and their interests such as the Saudi government and others who choose to support the idol’s regime over the Islamic one. We call them to repent, separate and to hate idols by fighting them with money, tongues and arms.
Our prayer to Allah is that we may assist His religion and spread His word and we ask to be given His enemies. Allah alone is sufficient and the end belongs to the pious believers. There is no aggression except upon oppressors. Praise be to Allah is our last worship.
Al-Qaida Organization of the Arab Gulf
19 Rabbi Al-Akhir 1425
I declare a fatwa against Palestine, for the things I've seen them do to their own children. I can't believe you buy that crap. Don't like Jews, do you cyclops?
New Calls for Coalition Forces to Count Iraqi Casualties
Abid Aslam, OneWorld US
Thu Jul 28,10:36 PM ET
WASHINGTON, D.C., Jul 28 (OneWorld) - At least 24,865 Iraqi civilians have died since the U.S.-led coalition began its war in their country but the real figure is unknown because coalition forces, flouting the Geneva Conventions, refuse to aid an accurate count, said a leading medical journal.
''The adamant refusal of the U.S.A. and its partner countries to keep count of Iraqi deaths is a stance that renders farcical the Geneva Conventions' principle that invading forces have a duty to make every effort to protect civilian lives,'' said an editorial in this week's issue of The Lancet, released late Thursday. ''How can the coalition attest that it respects this obligation if it refuses to collect data to prove it?'' [..]
The journal cited the work of Iraq Body Count (IBC), a British-U.S. non-profit group that last week reported that 24,865 civilians had died in the two years since the war in Iraq began in March 2003. The IBC database, from which data for the dossier were drawn, lists only those deaths reported by two or more news agencies, The Lancet said. [..]
Coalition spokespersons, faced with a rising death toll of Iraqis killed in bomb and gun attacks on politicians and local police and civilian targets, have laid the blame for these deaths squarely at the feet of terrorist groups. [..]
The IBC, in its 28-page dossier, said [..] U.S.-led forces killed nearly 37 percent of the total [..].
Almost one-third of civilian deaths occurred during the invasion itself, from March 20 to May 1, 2003, when U.S.-led forces carried out their ''shock and awe'' bombing campaign against Baghdad. In the first year after the invasion, another 6,000 or so civilians were killed, according to IBC. The toll nearly doubled in the second year, reflecting a general increase in violence. [..]
Criminals, accounting for 36 percent of civilian deaths, came a close second to U.S.-led forces. Insurgents, however, accounted for a surprisingly small 9.5 percent.
''Unknown agents'' were responsible for 11 percent of deaths, according to IBC.
The IBC dossier covered civilians, army and police recruits, and serving police. It did not provide figures for deaths among serving Iraqi military, saying there are no reliable accounts, official or unofficial.
Based on an analysis of 10,000 media reports, the group also concluded that at least 42,000 civilians were wounded between March 2003 and March 2005.
The death toll closely resembled a U.N.-funded survey that last year found 24,000 conflict-related deaths since the U.S.-led invasion.
Conservative commentators have assailed the IBC dossier, saying the group's research was flawed.
''IBC is doing nothing more than blindly throwing darts at a dartboard,'' said Alston Ramsay, an associate editor of the National Review, wrote on the magazine's Web site.
Yet even these critics appeared to agree with calls for increased reporting of Iraqi deaths.
''Hard-and-fast numbers on civilian deaths would certainly be a boon to the national and international discourse on Iraq,'' Ramsay wrote.
Cycloptichorn wrote:'Bigoted against America,' Right, lol
And I'm no more a Muslim than I am a Christian or a Buddhist or a Hindu. I think the whole lot of religious people are crazy; but that's just me.
You are obviously a proponent of the virulent form of Islam. You agree with Bin Laden's demands and say we should do as he says.
If you have bothered to read the things OBL has written over the years, you will see that he lists his primary reasons for aggression against America as being our military bases in Saudi Arabia, and the things he saw the Jews do in Palestine.
I have read some of what he has written. I am not willing to allow a terrorist to direct foreign policy. I am not willing to turn my back on Israel. I declare a fatwa against Palestine, for the things I've seen them do to their own children. I can't believe you buy that crap. Don't like Jews, do you cyclops?
Does he go on about our immorality? Yes. But they also call for us to stop supporting Israel and to get the hell out of their lands.
Do you know why we're in Saudi? Do you know about Saudi's background with the Wahhabis, the US--and Saudi's humiliation of OBL??
In OBL's 1998 Fatwah, found here:
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm
You will note that he lists American bases in Saudi Arabia and our support of the Jews as the reasons for Fatwah. It says nothing about hating America or immorality or any of that. He also lists our continuing bombing of Iraq as a primary reason.
LOL!!! The continuing bombing of Iraq...Wasn't he pretty thick into the terrorist business before that...? You may want to hop to a terrorist's tune, but thank God you are in the minority. You talk like he's your hero.
From a Nov. 2004 transalation of a Bin Laden tape"
Quote:I say to you, Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers. But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind.
You seem to agree with him politically. Maybe you would like to hear more about what he has to say. Maybe they have a Big Brother program in Afghanistan. <Oh yeah. They call it Al Quaeda.>
Quote:Your emotional rhetoric sounds much more like you are a Muslim than it does a non-Muslim, "who has studied for five years." Why don't you say so?
Only you would think that accusing me of being a Muslim would be some sort of insult. You really are beneath my contempt.
Back at you, but as I said, asking you if you're a muslim is not considered an insult, yet--though I'm sure the PC crowd has taken it under advisement. I just think you are. If there's no harm in BEING a Muslim, surely there's no harm in ASKING if you are ..
You are obviously a proponent of the virulent form of Islam. You agree with Bin Laden's demands and say we should do as he says.
I have read some of what he has written. I am not willing to allow a terrorist to direct foreign policy. I am not willing to turn my back on Israel. I declare a fatwa against Palestine, for the things I've seen them do to their own children. I can't believe you buy that crap. Don't like Jews, do you cyclops?
Do you know why we're in Saudi? Do you know about Saudi's background with the Wahhabis, the US--and Saudi's humiliation of OBL??
LOL!!! The continuing bombing of Iraq...Wasn't he pretty thick into the terrorist business before that...? You may want to hop to a terrorist's tune, but thank God you are in the minority. You talk like he's your hero.
You go figure out what the Muslims want. When you figure out it's you bending down to worship their god five times a day and ripping your daughter's clitoris out and killing me because I refuse to do it-- will you do it?
That'll stop the terrorism. Osama has said all you have to do it convert, stop your immorality and gambling and adopt Sharia law....
I appreciate you sacrificing your freedom for the rest of us. I'd rather fight than switch.
Back at you, but as I said, asking you if you're a muslim is not considered an insult, yet--though I'm sure the PC crowd has taken it under advisement. I just think you are. If there's no harm in BEING a Muslim, surely there's no harm in ASKING if you are ..
i may be faced with making sacrifices.
I would love to have five or six pages (a pipe dream) with information gleaned about Islam, OBL, Arab culture or any of the issues pertinent to the thread, devoid of personal insult.
Ok then! You think all that need be done to stop the world wide mass murder of civilians by al Qaeda and affiliates, is for the US and its allies to pack up and leave the Middle East.
That is incredibly simple!
Do you think there is any down side to that solution?
Turkey calls for U.S. action against PKK
Compiled by Daily Star staff
Friday, July 29, 2005
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has again warned he could take action against Kurdish guerrillas in Iraq if U.S. forces did not stop the rebels infiltrating across the border into Turkey. "At the moment, frankly speaking, we do not see the efforts by the U.S. that we expect to see. We have expressed our views to that effect to the Americans," Erdogan said in an interview yesterday with Britain's Times newspaper. "There is a time limit. There is a limit to our tolerance," said Erdogan.
He said Turkey was within its rights under international law to defend itself from attack and drew a comparison with U.S. action against Afghanistan after the September 11, 2001 attacks.
"That mandate is provided for in international law," he said.
"If a country, if a people, if a nation are under threat, that country can do what is necessary under international law ... we would exercise that right in the same way as any other country could, would and did exercise that right."
Turkey has blamed the banned Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) for a rash of violence in the southeast of the country and says the guerrillas use bases in northern Iraq as a launch pad for attacks.
In the latest act of Kurdish insurgency, Turkish officials said Kurdish guerrillas have kidnapped the mayor of a town in eastern Turkey .
Hasim Akyurek, mayor of Yayladere in the Bingol Province and a member of Turkey's ruling Justice and Development Party, was abducted Wednesday while on his way to inspect preparations for a local festival, the officials said.
The rebels stopped Akyurek, and a man traveling with him, said Bilge Eren, an official from the mayor's office.
The second man, Zulfu Coban, who was visiting from Germany, was released late at night and told Turkish security officials that they were kidnapped by members of the autonomy-seeking PKK, Eren said.
Turkish soldiers backed by helicopters were searching the area for the mayor, the Anatolia news agency reported.
Despite a lull in violence after the capture of PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan in 1999, fighting has increased sharply since the group called off a unilateral cease-fire last year.
The PKK has waged an armed campaign for an independent Kurdish homeland in southeast Turkey since 1984, and more than 30,000 people have been killed in the fighting.
Turkey has vowed never to negotiate with the PKK and together with the United States and the European Union brands the group as a "terrorist organization." - AP, Reuters
In Jaded, Perilous Capital, A Collision of Perceptions
Life in Baghdad Looks Greener Inside the Zone
By Ellen Knickmeyer and Naseer Nouri
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, July 29, 2005; A14
BAGHDAD, July 28 -- At 11 a.m. in the Iraqi capital, the popping of automatic-weapons fire broke out from one end of a Tigris River bridge to another. Pedestrians jaded by gunfire walked for cover. It was Baghdad's equivalent of a car horn -- guards shooting into the air to clear the way for some dignitary.
Across the Tigris, gray smoke billowed over the city from a bomb. Under the bridge, ski-masked Shiite Muslim commandos cruised through checkpoints in pickups mounted with machine guns.
Nearby, a man stood in the middle of the street holding a gun to the head of another man in a car. Other drivers steered around them. No one stopped to help, or looked that carefully. After more than two years of war, Baghdad's people have learned to choose their battles, and this one didn't qualify.
On the city's streets, the daily reality involves death, random violence and routine deprivations for people who are beyond anger. But a different view has been presented in the Green Zone, the concrete-barricaded headquarters for U.S. troops, diplomats and contractors, and the interim Iraqi government. There, the situation is described as progressing toward a gradual handover from U.S. forces to Iraqi control.
During a visit to Baghdad this week by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, the commander of U.S. forces in Iraq, Gen. George W. Casey, said a partial troop withdrawal might begin in early spring. His assessment was repeated Thursday at a weekly briefing. "Every day you see the Iraqi people going about their lives -- sometimes under challenging circumstances -- gives confirmation we've got a good program," said the military spokesman, Brig. Gen. Donald Alston.
In statements to reporters in Iraq, the U.S. military has described the toll of the war, with regular reports on U.S. military deaths -- 1,790 so far -- and on some of the Iraqi civilian deaths. But the military has also attempted to highlight reconstruction, success against insurgents and the enthusiasm of the Iraqi people. "Iraqi, U.S. soldiers distribute frozen chickens," was the headline on a July 20 military press release.
When a bomber struck a Baghdad military recruitment center earlier this month, killing at least 10 people, Alston told reporters that the willingness of the Iraqis to keep showing up at such centers was a demonstration of their resolve. "To see these recruits come back again tomorrow or the day after these attacks, it is almost as if . . . the insurgency causing these attacks [was] giving the Iraqi youth the chance to express themselves," Alston said.
He said that Iraqis' commitment "to serving their nation" was "also a twist that is part of this particular sequence of attacks at this particular recruiting station."
Another U.S. military public affairs operation, Task Force Baghdad, issued a statement on a July 13 car bombing. The statement included this quotation: " 'The terrorists are attacking the infrastructure, the children and all of Iraq,' said one Iraqi man who preferred not to be identified. 'They are enemies of humanity without religion or any sort of ethics. They have attacked my community today and I will now take the fight to the terrorists.' "
On Sunday, the task force issued a statement about another attack in which a U.S. soldier and as many as 26 Iraqi children were killed. The statement included this quotation: " 'The terrorists are attacking the infrastructure, the ISF, and all of Iraq. They are enemies of humanity without religion or any sort of ethics. They have attacked my community today and I will now take the fight to the terrorists,' said one Iraqi man."
Several journalists pointed out the near-duplication. Lt. Col. Steve Boylan, a senior military spokesman, said Thursday that the U.S. military was looking into what happened and that procedures in Task Force Baghdad's public affairs office were under review.
U.S. military public affairs officers have also accused reporters of distorting the image of the U.S. campaign in Iraq. They have charged that reporters focus on insurgent attacks and ignore military accounts of U.S. and Iraqi troops finding weapons caches, blocking bombings and catching suspected insurgents.
On his visit here Wednesday, Rumsfeld and senior commanders prodded Iraqi officials to maintain momentum toward elections that will be a prerequisite for any start of U.S. troop withdrawals. But Iraqis drafting the country's new constitution acknowledged they still had to resolve points as basic as what the country should be called and whether it should have a federal government. Iraqis face a Monday deadline for deciding whether to extend an Aug. 15 deadline for parliamentary approval of a draft constitution.
Americans said they feared postponement would heighten the perception that insurgents, rather than government officials, hold the momentum, and would discourage Iraqis. But outside the Green Zone, Iraqis are already discouraged.
"The Americans' statements are always untrue," said Ali Abed, 50, a taxi driver standing in a 1 1/2 -mile-long line for gas. "We are fed up.
"They destroyed the country, and now they say they want to leave," Abed said. "Let them go to hell, not to their home."
Many Iraqis complain about the continuing hardships here. Because of power outages that the Iraqi government blames on insurgent attacks, electrical power is turned on in Baghdad 30 minutes at a time, four times a day. "Electricity is like medicine in Iraq now," a much-repeated joke on Iraq's al-Sharqiya TV declared this week. "You get it every six hours."
The lack of electricity means no air conditioning, making sleep difficult in the summer heat, when daytime temperatures exceed 120 degrees, said Nouri Muhsen Kadhim, an engineer at an electrical supply store, who added that water shortages forced him to shower only every other day.
U.S. military operations to combat the insurgency mean roadblocks that tie up traffic for hours, Kadhim said. "God save us from the terrorists' attacks too," he said. "Aren't we human beings, with a right to live like others?
"When I was a kid, some teacher told me that we are lucky to live in Iraq, that we have two rivers and we are floating over an ocean of oil," Kadhim added. "I just want to see him now and ask him, 'Where is all that?' "
Bad as it is, comparatively few Iraqis say they want back the days before the 2003 U.S.-led invasion that ousted President Saddam Hussein. But the summer of attacks and shortages leaves them short on hope about what will happen when the Americans leave.
"The Americans want to glue together all the parts they broke, to shape it back as a real, new country. But you cannot bring back what you broke as it was before -- everyone will be able to see the break marks," said Jamal Hindawi, 42, at his Baghdad paint shop. "They just want to leave, even if everything will come apart after they go."
Correspondent Andy Mosher and special correspondent Bassam Sebti contributed to this report.
© 2005 The Washington Post Company
