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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 09:19 pm
Anybody else want a job with the CIA? They can leak information on you to the media, and there's no consequence if you're working in this administration.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 08:07 am
I think you're on the wrong thread for that C.I. Try the Karl Rove thread.

Pertinent to this thread, however, here are some more thoughts on the "MOTHER OF ALL CONNECTIONS" piece. I'm wondering if we should post that whole piece to keep the information in case it otherwise becomes inaccessible on the web?

Excerpt from the piece below
Quote:
But there's another speech Mr. Bush still needs to give. That would be the one in which he says: I told you so--there was a connection between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda.


Saddam and al Qaeda
There's abundant evidence of connections.

BY CLAUDIA ROSETT
Wednesday, July 13, 2005 12:01 a.m. EDT

President Bush has given some good speeches lately, including his talk June 29 at Fort Bragg, N.C., in which he stressed some of the reasons for going into Iraq, and his address this past Monday at the FBI Academy at Quantico, Va., in which he talked about the role of intelligence in defeating terrorists and stressed that "the heart of our strategy is this: Free societies are peaceful societies."

But there's another speech Mr. Bush still needs to give. That would be the one in which he says: I told you so--there was a connection between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda.

In some quarters, that would of course provoke the usual outrage. Since the U.S.-led coalition went outside the corrupt United Nations to topple the Baathist regime in Baghdad more than two years ago, it has become an article of faith that there was no such connection. Typical of the tenor in both the media and western politics is an article that ran last month in The Economist, describing Iraq as Mr. Bush's "most visible disaster" and opining that "even Mr. Bush's supporters admit that he exaggerated Saddam's ties to Al Qaeda."

If anything, Mr. Bush in recent times has not stressed Saddam's ties to al Qaeda nearly enough. More than ever, as we now discuss the bombings in London, or, to name a few others, Madrid, Casablanca, Bali, Nairobi and Dar es Salaam, or the many bombings in Israel--as well as the attacks on the World Trade Center in both 1993 and 2001--it is important to understand that terrorist connections can be real, and lethal, and portend yet more murder, even when they are shadowy, shifting and complex. And it is vital to send the message to regimes in such places as Syria, Saudi Arabia and Iran that in matters of terrorist ties, the Free World is not interested in epistemological debates over what constitutes a connection. We are not engaged in a court case, or a classroom debate. We are fighting a war.

But in the debates over Iraq, that part of the communication has become far too muddied. Documents found in Iraq are doubted; confessions by detainees are received as universally suspect; reports of meetings between officials of the former Iraqi regime and al Qaeda operatives are discounted as having been nothing more than empty formalities, with such characters shuttling between places like Iraq, Afghanistan and Sudan, perhaps to share tea and cookies. Any conclusions or even inferences about contacts between Saddam's regime and al Qaeda are subjected these days to the kind of metaphysical test in which existence itself becomes a highly dubious philosophical problem, mired in the difficulty of ever really being certain about anything at all.

Certainty is then imposed in the form of assurances that there was no connection. This notion that there was no Saddam-al Qaeda connection is invoked as an argument against the decision to go to war in Iraq, and enjoined as part of the case that we were safer with Saddam in power, and that, even now, the U.S. and its allies should simply cut and run.

Actually, there were many connections, as Stephen Hayes, writing in the current issue of the Weekly Standard, spells out under the headline "The Mother of All Connections." Since the fall of Saddam, the U.S. has had extraordinary access to documents of the former Baathist regime, and is still sifting through millions of them. Mr. Hayes takes some of what is already available, combined with other reports, documentation and details, some from before the overthrow of Saddam, some after. For page after page, he lists connections--with names, dates and details such as the longstanding relationship between Osama bin Laden's top deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, and Saddam's regime.

Mr. Hayes raises, with good reason, the question of why Saddam gave haven to Abdul Rahman Yasin, one of the men who in 1993 helped make the bomb that ripped through the parking garage of the World Trade Center. He details a contact between Iraqi intelligence and several of the Sept. 11 hijackers in Malaysia, the year before al Qaeda destroyed the twin towers. He recounts the intersection of Iraqi and al Qaeda business interests in Sudan, via, among other things, an Oil for Food contract negotiated by Saddam's regime with the al-Shifa facility that President Clinton targeted for a missile attack following the African embassy bombings because of its apparent connection to al Qaeda. And there is plenty more.

The difficulty lies in piecing together the picture, which is indeed murky (that being part of the aim in covert dealings between tyrants and terrorist groups)--but rich enough in depth and documented detail so that the basic shape is clear. By the time Mr. Hayes is done tabulating the cross-connections, meetings, Iraqi Intelligence memos unearthed after the fall of Saddam, and information obtained from detained terrorist suspects, you have to believe there was significant collaboration between Iraq and al Qaeda. Or you have to inhabit a universe in which there will never be a demonstrable connection between any of the terrorist attacks the world has suffered over the past dozen years, or any tyrant and any aspiring terrorist. In that fantasyland, all such phenomena are independent events.

Mr. Bush, in calling attention to the Iraq-al Qaeda connection in the first place, did the right thing. For the U.S. president to confirm that clearly and directly at this stage, with some of the abundant supporting evidence now available, might seem highly controversial. But reviving that controversy would help settle it more squarely in line with the truth.

Ms. Rosett is a journalist-in-residence with the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. Her column appears here and in The Wall Street Journal Europe on alternate Wednesdays
http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/cRosett/?id=110006953
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 08:18 am
Foxfyre,
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/Intrepid2/ccf91307.jpg
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 09:34 am
Quote:
Pressure grows as Pentagon misses deadline on troop levels
By Bryan Bender, Globe Staff | July 12, 2005

WASHINGTON -- The Bush administration yesterday came under more pressure to outline the number of American forces that may need to stay in Iraq over the next two years after the Pentagon failed to meet a 60-day deadline set by Congress to provide a detailed plan for training Iraqis and for likely US troop levels.

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Boston.com
Sign up for: Globe Headlines e-mail | Breaking News Alerts The report to Congress, due yesterday, was required under the $80 billion war spending legislation approved in May. It is intended to help answer one of the most pressing questions hanging over the American-led occupation: when the United States might be able to begin drawing down the estimated 140,000 forces in Iraq.

The White House and Pentagon are facing rising calls from Democrats and Republicans for a more detailed strategy in Iraq -- calls that grew louder yesterday.

''I am deeply disappointed that the administration failed to comply with this initial . . . deadline," Representative Martin T. Meehan, a Lowell Democrat and senior member of the Armed Services Committee, told Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld in a letter. ''It is long past due for the administration to provide Congress with meaningful information to evaluate our progress in Iraq."

The Pentagon yesterday maintained that it is still compiling the report, but did not say when it would be complete.

The war spending legislation, approved by both houses of Congress, stipulated that ''the administration must develop and provide to the Congress a more comprehensive set of performance indicators and measures of stability and security in Iraq than is currently available."

It calls for ''detailed descriptions" of how the Pentagon will measure the security environment, political stability, and economic progress and how it will assess the capabilities and readiness of Iraqi security forces, including military and police, to take over the mission now performed by US-led forces. The report must also include ''an assessment of US military requirements, including planned force rotations, through the end of calendar year 2006," according to the instructions from Congress. The Pentagon is providing updates to Congress every three months until Oct. 1, 2006.

The Army, meanwhile, also delayed the scheduled release of a study about the impact of the extended deployment, which officials said raises new questions about its ability to respond to other trouble spots around the world. Top generals needed more time to review the RAND Corporation findings before making them public. ''There is nothing to hide," said a senior Army officer who asked not to be named. ''We wanted a chance to absorb it."

Bender can be reached at [email protected].


Boston.com

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 10:10 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
...
Quote:
I disagree with this formulation. Perhaps you will agree with this replacement:

{If the attention to terrorism by law enforcement worldwide did not change, what would have been the probable consequences...?

AND

If the attention to terrorism by law enforecement worldwide did change, what would have been the probable consequences...?}


Is the fact that law enforcement efforts changed in question?

No! I realize they changed and are changing. I inferred, apparently falsely, that you had in mind some specific additional changes that you thought would be sufficient if adopted.


Quote:
What other factors have I excluded that you think are of far greater significance? I think our invasion of Iraq was a necessary step in combatting terrorism and I think I explained why.


For just one example, I think that the comparisons of terror rate pre and post Iraq ignore that law enforcement efforts can have had more to do with disrupting Al Quaeda than invading Iraq.

Do you mean law enforcement efforts outside of Afghanistan as well as outside of Iraq?

... I don't believe Iraq posed a threat because I saw no evidence that compelled me to do so.

Do you think the alleged establishment and growth of al Qaeda in Iraq prior to the invasion of Iraq did not happen?

Proving a negative and providing evidence that the threat did not exist is neither part of burden of proof or an excercise I would be willing to undertake.

In science, engineering and aviation, providing evidence of negatives (i.e., showing something is probably not true) is not only a continuing burden, but is also a way of life. So that's why I asked. I am ignorant of any valid reasons why that doesn't apply to political and military problems as well. But if you don't want to, accept such a burden I'll drop it.

Lastly, there is the matter of inherent negatives to invading Iraq. Assuming that you cede the existence of negatives (and what war comes with no downside?) my conclusion can be aptly summarized as failing to see evidence of an upside to outweigh the downsides of invading Iraq.

This is in fact what I wanted to explore with you. Namely what are the negatives and why; what are the positives and why; which outweigh the other and why?

Quote:
I think it would help me understand your viewpoint better if you were to explain to me why you think it is largely irrelevant insofar as preventing attacks on American soil is concerned.


It's pretty simple, I don't think Iraq posed a significant threat to the US. I also don't see evidence that Iraq would have provided significant strategic and logistical advantages to Al Quaeda.


Quote:

It will help me significantly if you provide two levels of why to your propositions. For example, you said why level 1you would not have made Bush's decision, and have not yet said why level 2 you think Bush's decision largely irrelevant to preventing attacks on US civilians on American soil.


The answer to both are ultimately the same. I did not see Iraq as a significant threat to the US. Ultimately, I would not have done as Bush did because I see this as a pre-requisite for moral high-ground in pre-emption.

I am at a loss for how to discuss this further with you, because I do not understand why you "did not see Iraq as a significant threat to the US" given:
(1) al Qaeda is a significant threat to the US;
(2) al Qaeda established itself in Afghanistan prior to its invasion;
(3) al Qaeda grew significantly in Afghanistan prior to its invasion;
(4) al Qaeda established itself in Iraq prior to its invasion;
(5) al Qaeda grew significantly in Iraq prior to its invasion; and,
(6) al Qaeda in Iraq murdered civilians in Iraq prior to its invasion.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 10:23 am
July 13, 2005
27 People, Many Children, Killed by Bomber in Baghdad
By THAIER ALDAAMI
and TIMOTHY WILLIAMS
BAGHDAD, Iraq, July 13 - Twenty-seven people, many of them children, were killed by a suicide truck bomb today as the children gathered around an Army vehicle where troops were handing out chocolates and other gifts.

The blast was so powerful it set a nearby house on fire.

The attack, which killed an American soldier and wounded three others, occurred about 10:50 a.m. in east Baghdad, according to the United States military.

As service members in a Humvee were giving presents to a group of children, a vehicle filled with explosives detonated.

"There were some American troops blocking the highway when a U.S. Humvee came near a gathering of children, and U.S. soldiers began to hand them candies," a man named Karim Shukir told The Associated Press. "Then suddenly, a speeding car showed up and struck both the Humvee and the children."

After the bombing, The A.P. reported that charred remains of an engine block wrapped in barbed wire sat in the road and a smashed child's bicycle lay beside the street, which was splattered with pools of blood.

Last September, 35 Iraqi children who had gathered around United States soldiers who were handing out candy at the opening of a sewage plant in Baghdad died after suicide bombers drove their cars into the crowd that had gathered for the ceremony.

The name of the deceased soldier is being withheld pending notification of relatives.

In other violence during the past 24 hours, several men opened fire on Baghdad police, injuring two police officers, according to the Ministry of the Interior.

An assassination attempt was made this afternoon on Abdul Karem Altalakani, the mayor of Rashidiya district in Northern Baghdad. He survived the attempt, but four of his guards, all policeman, were injured, an officer in the Ministry of Interior said.

And Tuesday night in Jalawlaa in Diyala province northeast of Baghdad, a man with explosive belt detonated himself at the gate of the town's largest mosque, killing two others and wounding 16, according to the Interior Ministry.

Thaier Aldaami contributed reporting from Baghdad, Iraq, and Timothy Williams contributed reporting from New York.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 10:33 am
THE AL QAEDA CALENDAR, (Revised)

04/1988 -- +00 months -- established in Afghanistan

05/1991 -- +37 months -- moved to Sudan

12/1992 -- +19 months -- murdered 0 Americans and 2 other civilians at two hotels in Aden

02/1993 -- +2 months -- murdered 6 Americans at WTC in NYC

11/1995 -- +33 months -- murdered 5 Americans and 2 other civilians at Saudi National Guard Facility in Riyadh


05/1996 -- +06 months -- fled to Afghanistan

06/1996 -- +01 months -- murdered 19 Americans at Khobar Towers in Dhahran

08/1998 -- +26 months -- murdered 12 Americans + 201 other civilians at American Embassy in Nairobi AND murdered 11 other civilians at American Embassy in Dar es Salaam

12/2000 -- +28 months -- murdered 17 Americans at Destroyer Cole in Aden

09/2001 -- +09 months -- murdered 1,500 Americans + 1,500 other civilians at WTC in NYC, at Pentagon in D.C., at field in Pennsylvania


10/2001 -- +01 months -- invaded by US in Afghanistan

12/2001 -- +02 months –attacked and some escaped from bases in the Tora Bora cave complex in Afghanistan; some fled to Iraq and formed Ansar al-Islam base in Iraq

03/2002 -- +03 months -- were attacked and some escaped from bases in the mountainous Shah-i-Kot area south of Gardez; some fled to Ansar al-Islam base in Iraq

03/2003 -- +12 months -- Ansar al-Islam base in Iraq is controlling about a dozen villages and a range of peaks in northern Iraq on the Iranian border

03/2003 -- +00 months -- invaded by US in Iraq

03/2004 -- +12 months -- murdered 191 Spaniards in Madrid, Spain

07/2005 -- +15 months -- murdered 52+ ? in London, England





WHAT IF USA DID NOT INVADE IRAQ IN 03/2003 -- Question
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 10:44 am
al Qaeda and friends are murdering Iraqi civilians at the average rate of almost 15 per day.

The Saddam regime from 1991 to 2002 murdered Iraqi civilians at an average rate of more than 30 per day.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 10:59 am
Since the murder rate is now 50 percent compared to Saddam, it's better?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 11:01 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Since the murder rate is now 50 percent compared to Saddam, it's better?


I'm trying to figure out if that's a trick question ....
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 11:06 am
Actually, that is a rather false statistic, as Saddam killed large groups of people at the same time and then for long periods was relatively silent on the killing front.

The '30 a day' number is only valid if you extrapolate the number of killings over the entire term of his office. This, while technically correct, is not the same thing as Iraq where people really ARE being killed every single day.

'Lies, Damned lies, and Statistics'

Cyclolptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 11:09 am
Oh geez. I never considered that murdering tens of thousands at a time is better than just a few at a time. Murder is more acceptable if you don't stretch it out over a length of time?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 11:11 am
No, of course not.

But the daily violence and level of unrest in Iraq is significantly greater now than it was before the war. But the statistic of the number of people killed daily is used in order to make it seem as if people were being killed at the same rate, daily, before we invaded, in order to make it seem as if we have RESTORED order to the place, when in fact the opposite is true.

I anxiously await your link on the Rove thread to the evidence showing that the Brits believe that Wilson is lying. I highly doubt you can find one.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 11:24 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Since the murder rate is now 50 percent compared to Saddam, it's better?


NO!

It is what it is!

It happens to be less, like the London death rate caused by malignancy happens to be less than the New York City death rate caused by malignancy .

You decide for yourself whether that is better, the same or worse!

Take all the time you need!
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 11:36 am
Use THIS ONE for starters Cyclop. Others posted on the other thread.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 11:44 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
... But the daily violence and level of unrest in Iraq is significantly greater now than it was before the war.

Cycloptichorn


True!

It is also true that:

the current mass murder death rate in Iraq is being caused by malignancy;

and the Iraq 1991 - 2002 mass murder death rate was caused by malignancy.

malignancy = those who mass murder civilians or are accomplices of those who mass murder civilians.

It is also true that malignancy must be exterminated.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2005 06:25 am
I read an interesting angle this morning concerning the prisoner abuse scandals which suggests that the abuse came from a planned method rather than a few bad apples acting out on their own. Yet it is the apples that had to go prison for only following techniques encouraged by their superiors. They excuse or downplay the techniques but if the techniques were alright, why did anyone have to go prison when they applied them?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071302380.html

Quote:
A central figure in the investigation, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, who commanded the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay and later helped set up U.S. operations at Abu Ghraib, was accused of failing to properly supervise Qahtani's interrogation plan and was recommended for reprimand by investigators. Miller would have been the highest-ranking officer to face discipline for detainee abuses so far, but Gen. Bantz Craddock, head of the U.S. Southern Command, declined to follow the recommendation.

Miller traveled to Iraq in September 2003 to assist in Abu Ghraib's startup, and he later sent in "Tiger Teams" of Guantanamo Bay interrogators and analysts as advisers and trainers. Within weeks of his departure from Abu Ghraib, military working dogs were being used in interrogations, and naked detainees were humiliated and abused by military police soldiers working the night shift.

Miller declined to respond to questions posed through a Defense Department liaison. Bryan Whitman, a Pentagon spokesman, said it is not appropriate to link the interrogation of Qahtani -- an important al Qaeda operative captured shortly after the terrorist attacks -- and events at Abu Ghraib. Whitman said interrogation tactics in the Army's field manual are the same worldwide but MPs at Abu Ghraib were not authorized to apply them, regardless of how they learned about them.

Some of the Abu Ghraib soldiers have said they were following the directionsof military intelligence officials to soften up detainees for interrogation, in part by depriving them of sleep. Pvt. Charles A. Graner Jr., characterized as the ringleader of the MP group, was found guilty of abusing detainees and is serving 10 years in prison. Others have pleaded guilty and received lesser sentences.

0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2005 06:31 am
I read this interesting piece in yesterday's Irish Times opinion page.


What al-Qaeda wants the West to believe...
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2005 06:36 am
Registration only on yer link, Kara. Rundown?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2005 06:45 am
ican711nm wrote:
It is also true that malignancy must be exterminated.


I'm always amazed by a vocabulary every terrorist or guerrilla leader would be proud of, while trying to argue for the good side.
0 Replies
 
 

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