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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 05:00 pm
This excerpt from Foxfyre's post explains the heart of the debate very well:
Quote:
FOR MANY, the debate over the former Iraqi regime's ties to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network ended a year ago with the release of the 9/11 Commission report. Media outlets seized on a carefully worded summary that the commission had found no evidence "indicating that Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States" and ran blaring headlines like the one on the June 17, 2004, front page of the New York Times: "Panel Finds No Qaeda-Iraq Tie."


"no evidence "indicating that Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States" cannot validly made be shown to be equivalent to "No Qaeda-Iraq Tie."

Had the NYT and others of TOMNOM, reported: No Qaeda-Iraq Tie in any attacks todate against the United States we would have received at least a truthful report.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 05:02 pm
Ok I admit to being a slow learner. Rayban has won your hearts.
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 05:15 pm
Dys, I'm reading War Trash by Ha Jin. This book is about the Korean war, and Ha Jin (whose father fought in that war) writes as a soldier fighting on the side of the Communist Chinese but who is not of their persuasion. Most of the story is told from the perspective of a prisoner of war, in the camps holding the Chinese and the North Koreans.

This is an amazing book. (Won our National Book Award) About a war that is largely forgotten.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 05:16 pm
dyslexia wrote:
ican/foxy, seems like the idea of fighting "ideas" is not on your agneda so I can only assume you will continue to support the "idea" that you can change the world by simply killing all those who are against you. I would wish you luck but unfortunately that also means that more of us and more of "them" will die from your "thinking" and nothing will chnage other than the location of the killing fields.


Dyslexia, the idea that one cannot fight ideas with ordnance was invalidated by:
The American Revolutionary War
The War of 1812
World War I
World War II

If you will accept this amendment, I'll agree with you:
Sometimes one can successfully fight ideas with ordnance and sometimes one cannot -- it depends on the ideas.

I think ideas which tend to enslave are much easier to fight with ordnance than ideas that tend to free. Ideas which tend to enslave are very difficult to fight any other way than with ordnance. While communism was initially fought with ordnance, it eventually was conquered by ideas plus ready-to-use stockpiles of ordnance including WMD:

The Cold War -- the collapse of the USSR.

"We shall see my little chickadee!"
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 05:30 pm
Quote:
Dyslexia, the idea that one cannot fight ideas with ordnance was invalidated by:
The American Revolutionary War
The War of 1812
World War I
World War II

I will concede that without question, the problem lies in the present not in the past. As I said above, we have not won a war with ordnance since WW II. I don't think it's likely we will ever win a war with ordnance in the foreseeable future. We no longer will have wars among nations because nations can't afford such wars. That only leaves wars against ideas and, I believe, we can only win these new wars by having ideas of our own that are based on mutual benefit rather than mutual annilation.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 06:12 pm
And towards that end, Bush is seeking to get funding for bunker busters which uses "spent" uranium. Nice people, these christians.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 06:20 pm
dyslexia wrote:
... the problem lies in the present not in the past. As I said above, we have not won a war with ordnance since WW II. I don't think it's likely we will ever win a war with ordnance in the foreseeable future. We no longer will have wars among nations because nations can't afford such wars. That only leaves wars against ideas and, I believe, we can only win these new wars by having ideas of our own that are based on mutual benefit rather than mutual annilation.


Problems in WWII were solved by principles and techniques discovered prior to as well as during WWII. Let's call the Cold War WWIII and this war WWIV. Why are you convinced that principles and techniques discovered in WWIII (and earlier) are not applicable to and therefore cannot be validly applied to solve WWIV?

I do not know how any person A with the idea not to kill civilians, can convince any person B not to kill civilians, when B has dedicated himself to the idea that in order to gain entrance to paradise he must kill civilians.

The problem consists of a fundamental disagreement. A pursues accomplishment in life. B pursues accomplishment in death. B thinks he's doing A a favor by killing A. A thinks he's doing B a favor by trying to convince B not to kill either himself or A. What's A to do? A doesn't want B to kill him? What's B to do? B doesn't want A or B to live?

So A concludes the mutual self-interest thing to do is kill B. That way B gets a chance to accomplish what he wants in death, and A gets a chance to accomplish what he wants in life. B should be happy about that, right? I think not, because B wants one more thing. B wants A not to accomplish anything in life. Crying or Very sad
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 06:31 pm
So your summation of the war in Iraq is that the "terrorists" are just trying their best to get into their heaven? Really? It's no wonder we are losing this war.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 06:34 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
And towards that end, Bush is seeking to get funding for bunker busters which uses "spent" uranium. Nice people, these christians.


The mean, indecent, rotten, stinking, vile, evil, lousy, not nice christians want to survive! Shocked Incredible Exclamation Where do they get off wanting anything Question Bunker busters Evil or Very Mad Who do they think they are, seeking to defend their lives against those who want them to die for no other reason than to gain entrance into paradise also? Clearly, the decent thing to do is to cooperate and allow the early paradise seeking people to kill them as fast as they can. Twisted Evil
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 06:47 pm
A British official said after the attacks on London that what we are looking at might be called the fourth generation of al Qaeda. He said that the first generation was fighting in Afghanistan. The second generation was fighting on the Balkans, in Serbia, in the Kosovo, and the third in Afghanistan again. The fourth generation has never been abroad. They may as well be British youths who have gotten their ideas from the media, and their knowledge from the internet. Al Qaeda is no longer a network, or an organization. It has become an ideology, with followers all over the world.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 06:49 pm
dyslexia wrote:
So your summation of the war in Iraq is that the "terrorists" are just trying their best to get into their heaven? Really? It's no wonder we are losing this war.


NO! There are two things the malignancy is trying to do according to their own proclamations (i.e., fatwahs):

Gain entrance into their paradise.

Prevent the rest of us so-called non-believers from accomplishing anything in life.

It's hard for me to tell which of these two objectives is the more important to them.

We are not losing this war. We are fighting this war. Somedays we lose a conflict; somedays we win one. We may lose this war if the malignancy continue to receive comfort from some of us that repeatedly persuades or reinforces their thinking that their cause is not only just, it is rational.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 07:03 pm
old europe wrote:
A British official said after the attacks on London that what we are looking at might be called the fourth generation of al Qaeda. He said that the first generation was fighting in Afghanistan. The second generation was fighting on the Balkans, in Serbia, in the Kosovo, and the third in Afghanistan again. The fourth generation has never been abroad. They may as well be British youths who have gotten their ideas from the media, and their knowledge from the internet. Al Qaeda is no longer a network, or an organization. It has become an ideology, with followers all over the world.


So what's new here? Al Qaeda is both a confederation and an ideology.

Liberty is worldwide ideology.

Nazism is a world wide ideology.

Shintoism is worldwide ideology.

Fascism is a worldwide ideology.

Communism is a worldwide ideology.

Terrorism is a worldwide ideology.

And, God help us, Relativism is a worldwide ideology.

I'm betting my life that liberty will prevail.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 07:06 pm
Well, as far as I remember al Qaeda was portrayed as a group, a network, an organization. As far as I remember you even said that al Qaeda couldn't operate without having bases, and without nations that would tolerate those bases.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 07:24 pm
old europe wrote:
Well, as far as I remember al Qaeda was portrayed as a group, a network, an organization. As far as I remember you even said that al Qaeda couldn't operate without having bases, and without nations that would tolerate those bases.


Al Qaeda apparently considers itself a confederation of multiple terrorist groups scattered all over the world.. To me, that seems like a kind of organization.

You are almost correct. I said that judging by bin Ladin's actions he thought/thinks that al Qaeda cannot grow, operate, and (pardon the expression) prosper without having bases. I agree with him.

The same might be said of the world's great religious ideologies. They too need bases -- churches, mosques, synagogues, temples, et al -- just like al Qaeda. They all need bases to train and maintain the proficiencies and loyalties of their flocks, as well as provide their flocks sanctuary.

I understand four dead terrorists have been found among the dead in London. Unfortunately, as a result we are in a poor position at this time to know where they received their training, maintained their proficiencies and loyalties, and obtained their sanctuaries.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 07:31 pm
Time will tell. I just wonder, in case it turns out these guys were from the UK and had never been to aka trained in another country: would mosques qualify as 'bases'? And, as the British government obviously knew about the mosques and about radical islamists - would that be 'harboring terrorism' per definitionem Bushii?
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 07:48 pm
old europe wrote:
Time will tell. I just wonder, in case it turns out these guys were from the UK and had never been to aka trained in another country: would mosques qualify as 'bases'? And, as the British government obviously knew about the mosques and about radical islamists - would that be 'harboring terrorism' per definitionem Bushii?


That harboring, if it exists (and there is evidence to say it does exist), if not done knowingly with at least the acquiescense of the British government, doesn't fit my understanding of Bush's definition. However, decide for yourself (my emphasis added):
the bipartisan, 9/11 Commission wrote:
The pre-9/11 draft presidential directive on al Qaeda evolved into a new directive, National Security Presidential Directive 9, now titled "Defeating the Terrorist Threat to the United States." The directive would now extend to a global war on terrorism, not just on al Qaeda. It also incorporated the President's determination not to distinguish between terrorists and those who harbor them. It included a determination to use military force if necessary to end al Qaeda's sanctuary in Afghanistan. The new directive—formally signed on October 25 [2001], after the fighting in Afghanistan had already begun--included new material followed by annexes discussing each targeted terrorist group. The old draft directive on al Qaeda became, in effect, the first annex.57 The United States would strive to eliminate all terrorist networks, dry up their financial support, and prevent them from acquiring weapons of mass destruction. The goal was the "elimination of terrorism as a threat to our way of life."58
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 07:56 pm
Quote:
The United States would strive to eliminate all terrorist networks, dry up their financial support, and prevent them from acquiring weapons of mass destruction. The goal was the "elimination of terrorism as a threat to our way of life."


That's exactly what I find disturbing about the idea that the London terrorists might not have had any connection to al Qaeda except for the ideology.

Disturbing because, even if all the terrorist networks were destroyed, if all their financial support would be dried up, and if they were prevented from acquiring weapons of mass destruction, it would still not "eliminate terrorism as a threat to our way of life."

It would not, because this kind of terrorism doesn't need networks. It doesn't need financial support, and least of all does it depend on weapons of mass destruction to cause terror and destruction.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 08:30 pm
old europe wrote:
Quote:
The United States would strive to eliminate all terrorist networks, dry up their financial support, and prevent them from acquiring weapons of mass destruction. The goal was the "elimination of terrorism as a threat to our way of life."


That's exactly what I find disturbing about the idea that the London terrorists might not have had any connection to al Qaeda except for the ideology.

Disturbing because, even if all the terrorist networks were destroyed, if all their financial support would be dried up, and if they were prevented from acquiring weapons of mass destruction, it would still not "eliminate terrorism as a threat to our way of life."

It would not, because this kind of terrorism doesn't need networks. It doesn't need financial support, and least of all does it depend on weapons of mass destruction to cause terror and destruction.


If the terrorism is as you characterize it, a terrorism that doesn't need networks, financial support, and at least conventional ordnance (which is quite capable of mass destruction), AND if it were also a ubiquitous terrorism, I would be disturbed too. In fact, I'd be scared youknowwhatless. If not ubiquitous I would expect conventional justice systems to keep it under acceptable control.

For now, let's assume the truth of the horrifying idea that such terrorism as you described is, or is allowed to become ubiquitous. What could be done about it? The same thing humankind did about it more than two thousand years ago. Yes, we would of necessity regress to barbarism. Millions maybe billions would murder each other. Then at least as slowly as before, our posterity (what's left of it) would begin the excruciating process of re-civilizing themselves. They may or may not succeed.

As I see it, a necessary way to prevent that catastrophe, is to prevent that malignancy from becoming ubiquitous; is too exterminate it as fast as we encounter or otherwise detect it.

Others say no. They say understand its causes first. Then eliminate those causes. Then the malignancy will stop metastasizing and die out.

I say let's do both. I say we will not survive doing either alone.

In the laboratory, we seek to discover the cause or causes of cancer. Simultaneously, we strive to cure those suffering from cancer by attempting to exterminate that cancer in whatever way we can. In all humanity, both must be done.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 08:56 pm
ican711nm wrote:
I agree. I have previously submitted such evidence as I have that Iraq's invasion was relevant to stopping the continued growth of terrorism. I will submit again if you like.


I think it's likely that I have already seen the items you have in mind, and merely disagree with you on threat probabilities and subsequently with your conclusion.

Quote:
I disagree with this formulation. Perhaps you will agree with this replacement:

{If the attention to terrorism by law enforcement worldwide did not change, what would have been the probable consequences...?

AND

If the attention to terrorism by law enforecement worldwide did change, what would have been the probable consequences...?}


Is the fact that law enforcement efforts changed in question?


Quote:
What other factors have I excluded that you think are of far greater significance? I think our invasion of Iraq was a necessary step in combatting terrorism and I think I explained why.


For just one example, I think that the comparisons of terror rate pre and post Iraq ignore that law enforcement efforts can have had more to do with disrupting Al Quaeda than invading Iraq.


Quote:
I think I have repeatedly made the connection myself. However, since we are exploring the probable consequences of not invading Iraq, I think the burden of providing convincing evidence that the situation would have probably been better and not worse is your burden and not mine, whereas my burden is providing convincing evidence that the situation would have probably been worse and not better.


This doesn't make much sense to me. I don't believe Iraq posed a threat because I saw no evidence that compelled me to do so.

Proving a negative and providing evidence that the threat did not exist is neither part of burden of proof or an excercise I would be willing to undertake.

Lastly, there is the matter of inherent negatives to invading Iraq. Assuming that you cede the existence of negatives (and what war comes with no downside?) my conclusion can be aptly summarized as failing to see evidence of an upside to outweigh the downsides of invading Iraq.

Quote:
I think it would help me understand your viewpoint better if you were to explain to me why you think it is largely irrelevant insofar as preventing attacks on American soil is concerned.


It's pretty simple, I don't think Iraq posed a significant threat to the US. I also don't see evidence that Iraq would have provided significant strategic and logistical advantages to Al Quaeda.


Quote:

It will help me significantly if you provide two levels of why to your propositions. For example, you said why level 1you would not have made Bush's decision, and have not yet said why level 2 you think Bush's decision largely irrelevant to preventing attacks on US civilians on American soil.


The answer to both are ultimately the same. I did not see Iraq as a significant threat to the US. Ultimately, I would not have done as Bush did because I see this as a pre-requisite for moral high-ground in pre-emption.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 09:12 pm
Some legal pundits are saying Karl Rove didn't break the law when he leaked information of a CIA agent. It's okay to endanger our intelligence agents and their associates and those they have made contact. Just wondering, cause I received the following from a friend in Australia.


On Sunday, Newsweek magazine revealed that Karl Rove - as you know, the President's closest political advisor -- was responsible for
disclosing the identity of undercover CIA agent Valerie Plame.

The agent, Valerie Plame, worked on weapons of mass destruction for the
agency and by exposing her identity, the leaker could have jeopardized
the lives of other covert agents in the field. At best, it was
recklessly irresponsible; at worst, it was malicious; and either way,
the leaker undermined our national security.

President Bush has pledged to fire anyone who helped leak Plame's name to the press. Now we know that the person responsible was Karl Rove.

Can we still trust what Bush tells us?
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