US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

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Iraq vs. Vietnam: The Scorecard

By Richard Leiby
The Washington Post
Sunday, March 21, 2004; Page D03

A year ago, while hundreds of eager reporters embedded with U.S. troops pushing into Iraq, some wag circulated the "Vietnam II Preflight Check," a list of questions comparing the just-launched war with that previous long and nasty one. How prescient was it? Here's the list, for which no author has ever taken credit or blame:

1. Cabal of oldsters who won't listen to outside advice? Check.

2. No understanding of ethnicities of the many locals? Check.

3. National boundaries drawn in Europe, not by the locals? Check.

4. Unshakable faith in our superior technology? Check.

5. France secretly hoping we fall on our [rear ends]? Check.

6. Russia secretly hoping we fall on our [rear ends]? Check.

7. China secretly hoping we fall on our [rear ends]? Check.

8. Secretary of Defense pushing a conflict the Joint Chiefs never wanted? Check.

9. Fear we'll look bad if we back down now? Check.

10. Corrupt Texan in the White House? Check. [Editor's note: Absolutely no proof of this.]

11. Land war in Asia? Check.

12. Right-wing unhappy with outcome of previous war? Check.

13. Enemy easily moves in/out of neighboring countries? Check.

14. Soldiers about to be exposed to our own chemicals? Check.

15. Friendly fire problem ignored instead of solved? Check.

16. Anti-Americanism up sharply in Europe? Check.

17. B-52 bombers? Check.

18. Helicopters that clog up on the local dust? Check.

19. Infighting among the branches of the military? Check.

20. Locals that cheer us by day, hate us by night? Check.

21. Local experts ignored? Check.

22. Local politicians ignored? Check.

23. Locals accustomed to conflicts lasting since before the USA has been a country? Check.

24. Against advice, Prez won't raise taxes to pay for war? Check.

25. Blue water navy ships operating in brown water? Check.

26. Use of nukes hinted at if things don't go our way? Check.

27. Unpopular war? Check.

28. It's the media's fault? Check.

"Vietnam II, you are cleared for takeoff."

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Gels, The only similarities between Vietnam and Iraq is the simple fact that they were both started by our government on false information.

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JTT wrote

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From this, I can only gather that you are much more devious than I have been led to believe by your other postings. As for the failures of Vietnam, you should take it up with that kind christian soul, Foxfyre. Perhaps you could level some of that moral indignation at her.

For her, 2 million weren't enough. She wanted the job to be done right. And you guys were going there to save them, right?

I can safely say the point was missed by you JTT. The point was to shorten the conflict, minimize the casualties, and win the peace. We did none of that in Vietnam mostly to appease the well-meaning but completely misguided peaceniks. We never gave the military permission to win it and the result was hundreds of thousands more casualties than there needed to be. We packed up and left before it was finished condemning to death many tens of thousands more.

It is reasonable to debate whether a war is warranted. But once we're in it, the most humane thing and best possible outcome is win it quickly, completely, decisively, clean up our mess, leave the people in better shape than we found them, and go home.

That's why the "Christian thing to do" is to support our troops in combat.

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That's why the "Christian thing to do" is to support our troops in combat.

Incorrect. The Christian thing to do is to oppose war in all forms. We all bear equal responsibility for allowing this unneccessary war to happen, and justifying further killing under the pretense of 'well, we're in it, so we need to win, even if it means taking 'extreme steps'' is going to land the believer of this straight in hell.

That is, if you believe in Christianity and Jesus' message.

Cycloptichorn

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So Fox would that be the Rumsfeld Doctrine?

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Would you want us to pull out of Iraq right now, Cyclop? In your opinion would that be the "Christian thing to do?"

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Obviously the Christian thing to do is to oppose war in all forms all the time. We never should have gone. It's like the following situation:

A man conspires to commit sins. In the middle of committing them, he realizes he's deep in trouble and has to make a decision whether to quit now, which might cause greater death, or to stay the course, which might cause greater deaths. Which does he choose?

Your party has robbed the people of the US of a path out of this that doesn't involve blood and death. There are no good choices any longer. And so we will stay until we are forced out by the Civil War. At least that way we won't be accused of cutting and running on the global stage.

This whole thing makes me sick to my stomach, that those who are the greatest proponents of this war call themselves 'Christians.' They don't even have the slightest clue what it means to be a Christian.

Cycloptichorn

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Didn't they use napalm on civilians in both too?

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Foxfrye, are saying that we should just go and wipe out the insurgents? Where would we do that exactly without wiping out innocent civilians and destroying towns and cities where people got to live? It's not like we have targets like army bases or anything.

I think you blaming the opponents of the war unfairly. I think the problem is more complicated than you make out. I think Gel's article explains the situation more accurately.

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Cyclop, I don't agree with your thesis, but I do respect your opinion. I support honest to goodness conscientious objectors. But you didn't answer the question.

Do you think pulling out of Iraq right now would be the "Christian thing to do?"

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The christian thing to do would be to slay them with the jaw of an ass (or napalm)

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Yes McTab..... they called it 'defoliation', children are still being born with horrible defects thanks to napalm and agent orange contamination.

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Revel, historically dragging a war out to prevent causalities invariably increases the number of casualties. I'm not all all suggesting we use nuclear weapons now, but as horrendous as the atomic bombing of Japan was, it brought the war to a screeching halt almost certainly saving hundreds of thousands of lives. Of course Japan hated us at the time. But now they are a peaceful, productive nation and one of our closest allies.

The Germans certainly weren't thrilled when we marched to Berlin, but now they are a peaceful, productive nation and one of our closest allies.

In both cases, you didn't have Americans burning flags and demonstrating in the streets. You had Americans who believe if you're going to fight a war, you darn well better be prepared to win it.

Vietnam wasn't WWII. Iraq isn't Vietnam or WWII. But the principle to bring a shooting war to a speedy end is the same no matter where you fight the war. You don't worry about what anybody thinks. You just win it, fix it up as best you can, leave the people better off, and go home. And that is best accomplished with the American people solidly behind the effort.

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Dow Chemical made a killing with that.

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Fox,

My point is that there are no Christian options left. We have no honorable options left at this point. And so we will stick the course and slog our way through the blood in the hopes that we can retreat forward out of the country before we have to retreat backwards out of it. Everyone who is killed now is killed in order to save face for the US.

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Vietnam wasn't WWII. Iraq isn't Vietnam or WWII. But the principle to bring a shooting war to a speedy end is the same no matter where you fight the war. You don't worry about what anybody thinks. You just win it, fix it up as best you can, leave the people better off, and go home. And that is best accomplished with the American people solidly behind the effort.

This doesn't work when you can't tell the enemies from the populace. Vietnam was a great demonstration of that.

And I will never, never, stop fighting to end the killing in Iraq. What we are doing and have done there is wrong. You have as much blood on your hands as I do, as we all do.

How can you support war and call yourself a Christian? Don't you know how many contradictions there are there?

Cycloptichorn

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Obviously not, or she wouldn't have made such a ludicrous suggestion.

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So Cyclop, again, do you think it is "the Christian thing to do" to pull out of Iraq right now? That can be answered with a simple yes or no.

Once you answer yes or no, then there can be discussion as to how to proceed.

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No. It's not Christian to pull out, and it's not Christian to stay. That's my answer; we don't have any good options left. It's not a Christian situation in the slightest, anyways.

Of course, you know that's how I feel from reading my last two posts, but if ya need me to state everything quite explicitly, there ya go.

Cycloptichorn

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Then you advocate that we stay and finish the job, Cyclop?

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There is no 'job' to stay and finish, Fox. You are using a false paradigm to describe a wreck of a situation.

I think that perhaps the least damaging course of action at this point would be to cut a deal with the insurgents; they stop blowing things up for a month and we will leave, no questions asked. But the problem is, we are never going to leave. We have no intention of EVER leaving. The military bases that we used to have in Saudi Arabia, are now in Iraq. There are enough generals telling the guys at the top that we have to keep a strategic presence there.

So the insurgents will never stop, and we will never stop, and what exactly do you see happening? Do you hope to wake up one morning and see the news headlines 'Backbone of insurgency broken, US forces begin withdraw' or 'Zarqawi caught and all bombings end'? Because, sister, it isn't going to happen that way. It will just get worse and worse and worse until it gets so bad that retreat WILL be the only option.

Every single bit of evidence over the course of the last two years supports this. NONE of the evidence supports the idea that we will 'win' this fight.

Cycloptichorn

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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

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