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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 04:56 am
While many in the US look to the BBC as a source of unbiased reporting on Iraq, some here are not so convinced. This came to me this morning.

MEDIA LENS: Correcting for the distorted vision of the corporate media

May 24, 2005


MEDIA ALERT: BBC STILL IGNORING EVIDENCE OF WAR CRIMES

BBC News Director Helen Boaden Responds


"Professional journalism relies heavily on official sources. Reporters have
to talk to the PM's official spokesperson, the White House press secretary,
the business association, the army general. What those people say is news.
Their perspectives are automatically legitimate... This is precisely the
opposite of what a functioning democracy needs, which is a ruthless
accounting of the powers that be." (Robert McChesney, professor of
communications, University of Illinois)


Scores of readers responded to our Media Alert, 'BBC Silence on Fallujah'
(May 17, 2005), in which we highlighted the evasions of BBC news director
Helen Boaden in her Newswatch article at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ukfs/hi/newsid_4390000/newsid_4396600/439664
1.stm

An earlier media alert, 'Doubt Cast on BBC Claims Regarding Fallujah' (April
18, 2005; http://www.medialens.org/alerts/05/050418_doubt_cast_on_bbc.php)
noted that Boaden's Newswatch article failed to address the many specific
and detailed allegations of atrocities committed by US forces in their
assault on Fallujah last November. Moreover, statements made to us by Human
Rights Watch had cast doubt on Boaden's firm assertion that HRW could
"compellingly" rule out the use of banned weapons by US forces in Fallujah.
Both of these points, we argued, surely merited a reply from the BBC.

We received the following response from Helen Boaden on May 19:

Dear Mr Cromwell and Mr Edwards,

In your original complaint, you criticised the BBC for failing to support
your [sic] contention that US forces in Falluja used banned weapons and
committed other atrocities. Our correspondent in Falluja at the time, Paul
Wood, did not report any of these things because he did not see any of these
things.

Later, in the normal course of discussions on a range of issues with Human
Rights Watch, he asked if they had heard of the allegations and what they
thought of them. A senior researcher at Human Rights Watch said he was aware
of the claims, had made some inquiries, but did not have any evidence to
substantiate the allegations.

We did not state, because it is not the case, that Human Rights Watch had
carried out a full investigation of these stories, travelling to Falluja to
interview eye-witnesses and gathering other testimony. We were making the
point that if these allegations were credible, you would expect to see them
taken up by the many, reputable international human rights organisations
which monitor Iraq.

The fact that they have not is one more reason for us to be cautious about
this story. Equally, we at the BBC do not know for certain that banned
weapons were not used in Falluja. We keep an open mind, continue to research
the issue and - as with any story - we would broadcast it if and when we
stand it up.

Far from covering up American use of banned weapons in Iraq, you can be
certain that if we had proof of this, it would be leading every bulletin. We
stand by our reporting of Falluja.

You are welcome to post this response on your website.

Yours sincerely
Helen Boaden,
Director, BBC News

We are grateful to Helen Boaden for taking the time and trouble to respond -
no doubt under pressure from a large number of emails. We responded on May
24:

Dear Helen Boaden,

Thank you for your reply of 19th May. We are grateful that you have
responded, but we are concerned that you continue to evade the points that
have been put to you.

Could you possibly please first of all retract your renewed assertion that
claims of banned weapons use by US forces have been made +by+ Media Lens?
That is incorrect. We are asking the BBC to report such claims; an entirely
different matter.

Your argument is that: "Our correspondent in Falluja at the time, Paul Wood,
did not report any of these things because he did not see any of these
things." Is this really the best that the BBC can do? What about the
testimony from other sources that Paul Wood, and other BBC reporters, could
have obtained by interviewing refugees, Iraqi doctors or human rights groups
in Iraq? Or even by inspection of media reports elsewhere, some of them
mainstream outlets? The argument that Paul Wood reported no atrocities or
abuses because he personally saw none, is unlikely to impress the growing
proportion of the BBC audience turning to the internet for news. Nor will it
impress BBC viewers and listeners who read newspapers.

You, and Paul Wood, appear to be unaware of the fact that US marines have,
in fact, already +admitted+ that they have used an upgraded version of
napalm. A weapon which uses kerosene rather than petrol was deployed when
dozens of bombs were dropped near bridges over the Saddam Canal and the
Tigris river, south of Baghdad. Andrew Buncombe reported in the Independent
on Sunday:

"'We napalmed both those bridge approaches,' said Colonel James Alles,
commander of Marine Air Group 11.

"'Unfortunately there were people there... you could see them in the cockpit
video. They were Iraqi soldiers. It's no great way to die. The generals love
napalm. It has a big psychological effect.'" (Buncombe, 'US admits it used
napalm bombs in Iraq,' Independent on Sunday, August 10, 2003)

Allegations about the use of weapons that have "melted" people have appeared
in the US press. For example, the Washington Post reported that: "Some
artillery guns fired white phosphorous rounds that create a screen of fire
that cannot be extinguished with water. Insurgents reported being attacked
with a substance that melted their skin." (Jackie Spinner, Karl Vick and
Omar Fekeiki, 'U.S. Forces Battle Into Heart of Fallujah,' Washington Post,
November 10, 2004)

Why has the alleged use of such weapons, reported in major press outlets,
not been covered by the BBC?

Or consider the testimony of human rights workers such as Michele Naar-Obed
based in Duluth, Minnesota. Naar-Obed was a participant on a recent peace
delegation to Iraq, her third visit. Her aim is to offer a perspective that
is all too often lacking in mainstream news media: "It's the perspective
from the ordinary Iraqi who doesn't live inside the 'green zone,' from the
ones who have watched their country laid waste by dictatorship, violence,
bombs, depleted uranium and occupation and the ones whose hopes and dreams
held common by most human beings have turned into nightmares." (Naar-Obed,
'Non-violence gaining tiny foothold in Iraq,' Duluth News Tribune, March 13,
2005)

She noted: "our delegation heard reports from refugees, human rights
workers, sheiks and imams about the November 2004 invasion of Fallujah. We
learned of execution-style killing of men handcuffed and blindfolded, of
women and children killed while holding white flags and of bodies burned and
grossly disfigured. Doctors are convinced chemical weapons or, at the very
least, napalm was used. Men between 16 and 50 years were not allowed to
leave the city even if they weren't part of the 'insurgency.' U.N.
representatives confirmed these reports and told us they have spent weeks
negotiating access into Fallujah to begin investigation and have been
denied."

Why have such reports of alleged atrocities, as related by Iraqi refugees,
doctors and human rights workers, and confirmed by UN representatives, not
been covered by the BBC?

There have also been reports of cluster bombs being dropped in Iraq,
including Fallujah. BBC Worldwide Monitoring picked up this report by one
London-based Arabic news agency:

"US military aircraft bombarded a number of neighbourhoods that had fallen
into the hands of gunmen such as the Al-Askari neighbourhood, which was the
target of a fierce aerial attack. B-52 bombers capable of dropping bombs
weighing up to a tonne were used for the first time in recent battles and
dropped a number of shells and cluster bombs on the city." (Quds Press news
agency, 'Iraqi gunmen claim to regain control of Al-Fallujah districts,'
December 12, 2004)

On February 22, 2005, BBC Worldwide Monitoring picked up an article in the
Iranian press by a Dr Kabak Khabiri entitled: "America's attack on Fallujah
and the Geneva Convention". The BBC Monitoring Report noted that Dr Khabiri
"outlined America's 'war crimes' in Iraq in general and in Fallujah in
particular, and said almost all the methods used by the US forces in their
military operations clearly contravened the Geneva Convention. The examples
given by Dr Khabiri include: attacks on civilians and residential areas; the
use of depleted uranium bombs; and torturing prisoners of war and
individuals suspected of involvement in terrorism. The article says the US
administration has never expressed any regret about the actions of its
military forces in Iraq, and instead it has defended these methods. It
states that the international organisations and conventions had regrettably
no power to face the blatant violations." (BBC Worldwide Monitoring,
February 22, 2005)

BBC Worldwide Monitoring is relaying reports about depleted uranium, cluster
bombs, fire bombs, poisonous gas and other atrocities committed against
Iraqi civilians. So why does the BBC never refer to them in its news
bulletins?


Demolishing Human Rights

You refer once again to an unnamed "senior researcher" at HRW who had "made
some inquiries, but did not have any evidence to substantiate the
allegations." As we have already mentioned to you, Joe Stork of HRW in New
York told us: "we [HRW] have not been able to investigate Falluja-related
allegations regarding possible use of prohibited weapons, and therefore we
are not in a position to comment on allegations that they have been used. In
that regard, I am mystified by the PW [Paul Wood] story citing HRW as saying
that we 'had made some investigations and found no evidence' [i.e. your
Newswatch article]. Perhaps Paul can shed some light here."

So far, neither you nor Paul Wood have shed light on this discrepancy in HRW
testimony. Therefore, the BBC's firm assertion that HRW found no evidence of
use of banned weapons in Fallujah after conducting "some inquiries" is
simply inaccurate. It is surely incumbent upon the BBC to investigate the
discrepancy in HRW statements, and to correct the false impression generated
by your Newswatch article and Paul Wood's reporting.

Even more damaging to your expressed commitment to "responsible journalism"
is the BBC's failure to convey the sheer scale of the horror inflicted upon
Iraqi civilians. Dahr Jamail, an unembedded journalist in Iraq, reported of
the US assault on Fallujah in November 2004:

"The military estimates that 2,000 people in Fallujah were killed, but
claims that most of them were fighters. Relief personnel and locals,
however, believe the vast majority of the dead were civilians." (Jamail, 'An
Eyewitness Account of Fallujah,' December 16, 2004,
http://www.dahrjamailiraq.com/hard_news/archives/2004_12_19.php)

In an article in the Guardian, Jamail noted that refugees from Fallujah told
him that "civilians carrying white flags were gunned down by American
soldiers. Corpses were tied to US tanks and paraded around like trophies."
(Jonathan Steele and Dahr Jamail, 'This is our Guernica,' The Guardian,
April 27, 2005)

Why do BBC news editors consider Dahr Jamail's reporting unworthy of
interest?

American documentary film-maker Mark Manning recently returned from Fallujah
after delivering medical supplies to refugees. Manning was able to secretly
conduct 25 hours of videotaped interviews with dozens of Iraqi eyewitnesses
- men, women and children who had experienced the assault on Fallujah
first-hand. In an interview with a local newspaper in the United States,
Manning recounted how he:

"... was told grisly accounts of Iraqi mothers killed in front of their
sons, brothers in front of sisters, all at the hands of American soldiers.
He also heard allegations of wholesale rape of civilians, by both American
and Iraqi troops. Manning said he heard numerous reports of the second siege
of Falluja [November 2004] that described American forces deploying - in
violation of international treaties - napalm, chemical weapons, phosphorous
bombs, and 'bunker-busting' shells laced with depleted uranium. Use of any
of these against civilians is a violation of international law."(Nick Welsh,
'Diving into Fallujah,' Santa Barbara Independent, March 17, 2005,
http://www.independent.com/cover/Cover956.htm)

Why do BBC news editors consider Mark Manning's documentary evidence of US
atrocities unworthy of interest?

A report on Fallujah presented recently to the 61st session of the United
Nations Commission on Human Rights by the Baghdad-based Studies Center of
Human Rights and Democracy appealed to the international community:

"What more tragedies are the international bodies waiting for in order to
raise their voices demanding to stop the massacres and mass killings of the
civilians?"

The report warns that "there are mass graves in the city" and "the medical
authorities and the citizens could not find the burial ground of 450 bodies
of the citizens of Fallujah that the American occupation forces have
photographed and buried in a place that is still unknown." (SCHRD, 'Report
on the current situation in Fallujah,' March 26, 2005,
http://www.brusselstribunal.org/pdf/lastReportFallujah%20crimes.pdf)

Why do BBC news editors consider the testimony of Baghdad-based human rights
groups, such as SCHRD, unworthy of interest?

There are other reports of atrocities carried out by US forces. Take, for
example, a newspaper interview with two men from Falluja - physician
Mahammad J. Haded and Mohammad Awad, director of a refugee centre - in the
German daily Junge Welt, on February 26, 2005. Mr Awad said:

"I saw in Falluja with own eyes a family that had been shot by U.S.
soldiers: The father was in his mid-fifties, his three children between ten
and twelve years old. In the refugee camp a teacher told me she had been
preparing a meal, when soldiers stormed their dwelling in Falluja. Without
preliminary warning they shot her father, her husband and her brother. Then
they went right out. From fear the woman remained in the house with the dead
bodies. In the evening other soldiers came, who took her and her children
and brought them out of the city. Those are only two of many tragedies in
Falluja." (International Action Center, 'Fallujah was wiped out,'
www.iacenter.org/jc_falluja.htm)

To conclude:

Would you please issue a clarification of your account of the BBC's dealings
with Human Rights Watch on your Newswatch site?

Would you please address the issue of brutal force and atrocities against
civilians by US forces on your Newswatch site, and in the main BBC news
bulletins?

The BBC's silence on these matters is a serious dereliction of your public
service requirements. It is all the more stark when weighed against your
channelling of US-UK propaganda (the infamous 45-minute warning, the 'dodgy'
dossiers, the supposed presence of WMD in Iraq, the US-UK quest for a
"diplomatic settlement" etc.) in the run up to the invasion of Iraq in March
2003 and the subsequent occupation. The BBC was leading news bulletins with
these erroneous items, month after month, despite the glaring lack of proof
of their authenticity. Contrast this with your assertion that: "you can be
certain that if we had proof of [US war crimes], it would be leading every
bulletin." Why have you, in fact, overlooked the ample evidence of such
atrocities?

We look forward to a reply that substantively addresses the above points.

Best wishes,
David Cromwell & David Edwards
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 05:22 am
Quote:

Informed Comment

Thoughts on the Middle East, History, and Religion Juan Cole is Professor of History at the University of Michigan
1. Sometimes You are Just Screwed Readers occasiona...
Sometimes You are Just Screwed

Readers occasionally write me complaining that I do not offer any solutions to the problems in Iraq. Let me just step back from the daily train wreck news from the region to complain back that there aren't any short-term, easy solutions to the problems in Iraq.

The US military cannot defeat the Sunni Arab guerrilla movement any time soon for so many reasons that they cannot all be listed.

The guerrillas have widespread popular support in the Sunni Arab areas of Iraq, an area with some 4 million persons. Its cities and deserts offer plenty of cover for an unconventional war. Guerrilla movements can succeed if more than 40 percent of the local population supports them. While the guerrillas are a small proportion of Iraqis, they are very popular in the Sunni Arab areas. If you look at it as a regional war, they probably have 80 percent support in their region.

The guerrillas are mainly Iraqi Sunnis with an intelligence or military background, who know where secret weapons depots are containing some 250,000 tons of missing munitions, and who know how to use military strategy and tactics to good effect. They are well-funded and can easily get further funding from Gulf millionnaires any time they like.

The Iraqi guerrillas are given tactical support by foreign jihadi fighters. There are probably only a few hundred of them, but they are disproportionately willing to undertake very dangerous attacks, and to volunteer as suicide bombers.

There are simply too few US troops to fight the guerrillas. There are only about 70,000 US fighting troops in Iraq, they don't have that much person-power superiority over the guerrillas. There are only 10,000 US troops for all of Anbar province, a center of the guerrilla movement with a population of 820,000. A high Iraqi official estimated that there are 40,000 active guerrillas and another 80,000 close supporters of them. The only real explanation for the successes of the guerrillas is that the US military has been consistently underestimating their numbers and abilities. There is no prospect of increasing the number of US troops in Iraq.

The guerillas have enormous advantages, of knowing the local clans and terrain and urban quarters, of knowing Arabic, and of being local Muslims who are sympathetic figures for other Muslims. American audiences often forget that the US troops in Iraq are mostly clueless about what is going on around them, and do not have the knowledge base or skills to conduct effective counter-insurgency. Moreover, as foreign, largely Christian occupiers of an Arab, Muslim, country, they are widely disliked and mistrusted outside Kurdistan.

US military tactics, of replying to attacks with massive force, have alienated ever more Sunni Arabs as time has gone on. Fallujah was initially quiet, until the Marines fired on a local demonstration against the stationing of US troops at a school (parents worried about their children being harmed if there was an attack). Mosul was held up as a model region under Gen. Petraeus, but exploded into long-term instability in reaction to the November Fallujah campaign. The Americans have lost effective control everywhere in the Sunni Arab areas. Even a West Baghdad quarter like Adhamiyah is essentially a Baath republic. Fallujah is a shadow of its former self, with 2/3s of its buildings damaged and half its population still refugeees, and is kept from becoming a guerrilla base again only by draconian methods by US troops that make it "the world's largest gated community." The London Times reports that the city's trade is still paralyzed.

So far the new pro-American Iraqi troops have not distinguished themselves against the guerrillas, and it will probably be at least 3-5 years before they can begin doing so, if ever. Insofar as the new army is disproportionately Shiite and Kurdish, it may simply never have the resources to penetrate the Sunni Arab center-north effectively. There is every reason to believe that the new Iraqi military is heavily infiltrated with sympathizers of the guerrillas.

The guerrilla tactic of fomenting civil war among Iraq's ethnic communities, which met resistance for the first two years, is now bearing fruit. There is increasing evidence of Shiite murders of Sunni clerics and worshippers, and of Sunni attacks on Shiites, beyond the artificial efforts of the guerrillas themselves. Civil war and turbulence benefit the guerrillas, who gain cover for violent attacks, and who can offer themselves to the Iraqis as the only force capable of keeping order. AP reports an Iraqi official saying today that there is a civil war going on in the northern city of Telafar between Sunnis and Shiites. I doubt US television news is even mentioning it.

The political process in Iraq has been a huge disaster for the country. The Americans emphasized ethnicity in their appointments and set a precedent for ethnic politics that has deepened over time. The Shiite religious parties, Dawa and the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq, won the January 30 elections. These are the parties least acceptable to the Sunni Arab heartland. The Sunni Arabs are largely absent in parliament, only have one important cabinet post, and only have two members in the 55-member constitutional drafting committee. Deep debaathification has led to thousands of Sunnis being fired from their jobs for simply having belonged to the Baath Party, regardless of whether they had ever done anything wrong. They so far have no reason to hope for a fair shake in the new Iraq. Political despair and the rise of Shiite death squads that target Sunnis are driving them into the arms of the guerrillas.

The quality of leadership in Washington is extremely bad. George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, and outgoing Department of Defense officials Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith, have turned in an astonishingly poor performance in Iraq. Their attempt to demonstrate US military might has turned into a showcase for US weakness in the face of Islamic and nationalist guerrillas, giving heart to al-Qaeda and other unconventional enemies of the United States.

If the US drew down its troop strength in Iraq too rapidly, the guerrillas would simply kill the new political class and stabilizing figures such as Grand Ayatollah Sistani. Although US forces have arguably done more harm than good in many Sunni Arab areas, they have prevented set-piece battles from being staged by ethnic militias, and they have prevented a number of attempted assassinations.

In an ideal world, the United States would relinquish Iraq to a United Nations military command, and the world would pony up the troops needed to establish order in the country in return for Iraqi good will in post-war contract bids. But that is not going to happen for many reasons. George W. Bush is a stubborn man and Iraq is his project, and he is not going to give up on it. And, by now the rest of the world knows what would await its troops in Iraq, and political leaders are not so stupid as to send their troops into a meat grinder.

Therefore, I conclude that the United States is stuck in Iraq for the medium term, and perhaps for the long term. The guerrilla war is likely to go on a decade to 15 years. Given the basic facts, of capable, trained and numerous guerrillas, public support for them from Sunnis, access to funding and munitions, increasing civil turmoil, and a relatively small and culturally poorly equipped US military force opposing them, led by a poorly informed and strategically clueless commander-in-chief who has made himself internationally unpopular, there is no near-term solution.

In the long run, say 15 years, the Iraqi Sunnis will probably do as the Lebanese Maronites did, and finally admit that they just cannot remain in control of the country and will have to compromise. That is, if there is still an Iraq at that point.
Wed, May 25, 2005 0:33



Source
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 05:38 am
Oh heck.

Well, I demonstrated against this invasion. And voted against Tony Blair.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 05:39 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
Quote:

Informed Comment

Thoughts on the Middle East, History, and Religion Juan Cole is Professor of History at the University of Michigan
1. Sometimes You are Just Screwed Readers occasiona...
Sometimes You are Just Screwed

Readers occasionally write me complaining that I do not offer any solutions to the problems in Iraq. Let me just step back from the daily train wreck news from the region to complain back that there aren't any short-term, easy solutions to the problems in Iraq.

The US military cannot defeat the Sunni Arab guerrilla movement any time soon for so many reasons that they cannot all be listed.

The guerrillas have widespread popular support in the Sunni Arab areas of Iraq, an area with some 4 million persons. Its cities and deserts offer plenty of cover for an unconventional war. Guerrilla movements can succeed if more than 40 percent of the local population supports them. While the guerrillas are a small proportion of Iraqis, they are very popular in the Sunni Arab areas. If you look at it as a regional war, they probably have 80 percent support in their region.

The guerrillas are mainly Iraqi Sunnis with an intelligence or military background, who know where secret ...


US Wed, May 25, 2005 0:33



Source



Gooooooood mooooooornnnnning Vieeeeeetnaaaaaammmm!
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 07:30 am
The US is launching major combat 1000 something strike today against the insurgents. Aside from thinking about the accidental deaths, do you think it will help anything at all?
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 07:58 am
We will kill them, they will kill us ... tommorow will be Friday with different numbers.
This will continue until ..... Christ...... who knows, the only comparison is Nam ... 20 years, over 50,000 dead.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 08:14 am
I am reminded of the movie "The Patriot", which starred Mel Gibson as the South Carolinian, the 'Swamp Fox' Marion.

This time around, in Iraq, the Americans are playing Cornwallis' troops. The Brits are still playing the Brits.

And both forces could lose this mess in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 08:15 am
Really? The only comparison, huh? Perhaps instead of trying to compare it with something you, and many others see as a failure, why not just try looking at it for itself?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 08:15 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
We will kill them, they will kill us ... tommorow will be Friday with different numbers.
This will continue until ..... Christ...... who knows, the only comparison is Nam ... 20 years, over 50,000 dead.


Tomorrow might be Friday on Mintaka, Gel, but it ain't on this little clump of dirt we call Earth. Smile

Everything else, spot on.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 08:24 am
"Spot on" my butt.

How do you compare the 1,647 casualties so far with the 50,000 from Vietnam?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 08:24 am
McGentrix wrote:
Really? The only comparison, huh? Perhaps instead of trying to compare it with something you, and many others see as a failure, why not just try looking at it for itself?


McGentrix looks at one rail, and he asks us to imagine the other going in a direction perpendicular. The facts, to anyone save for the wilfully blind, tell us a different story.

Would you buy a used car from this man?

Will you now lead us into a discussion of why Vietnam was NOT a failure? How, McG, can you pack so much deception in one tiny little paragraph?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 08:34 am
IMO, Vietnam was a failure purely because a noisy minority group would not get behind the administration and military. The North Vietnamese themselves admitted they were beaten in the Tet offensive but were encouraged to fight on by the televised visions of burning American flags and rioting Americans that they took to be on their side. Meanwhile the administration flinched, pulled its punches, and would not allow the military to do what it had to do to win.

If anything beats us, that will be what beats us in the war on terrorism. If the American people would say enough is enough, encourage the President and military to do what it has to do to clean the vipers out of the nest in Iraq and restore order to the country, this whole thing could be greatly shortened and many lives would be saved.

There are times when overwhelming force is the safest and most humane method.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 08:38 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
While many in the US look to the BBC as a source of unbiased reporting on Iraq, some here are not so convinced. This came to me this morning.


Perhaps those are the same misguided souls that look to the New York Times for unbiased reporting?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 08:44 am
JTT wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Really? The only comparison, huh? Perhaps instead of trying to compare it with something you, and many others see as a failure, why not just try looking at it for itself?


McGentrix looks at one rail, and he asks us to imagine the other going in a direction perpendicular. The facts, to anyone save for the wilfully blind, tell us a different story.

Would you buy a used car from this man?

Will you now lead us into a discussion of why Vietnam was NOT a failure? How, McG, can you pack so much deception in one tiny little paragraph?


The only deception in that paragraph is the one you make up.

I did not say Vietnam was not a failure. I said the war in Iraq should not be continuously compared to Vietnam. The only reason to make that comparison is to further the leftist agenda that Iraq will be a failure on the same level that Vietnam was and that simply is not the case.

Perhaps instead of trying to make some sort of smug, self-righteous response, you should actually read what you are responding to first?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 08:46 am
Perhaps the best comparison to Vietnam is the efforts of the anti-war leftists who actively worked against the US war interests back then, and are now similarly doing their best, holding to their view that because they want the US to lose this war they are being patriotic.

But of course that is simply my opinion on the matter.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 08:54 am
McGentrix wrote:
JTT wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Really? The only comparison, huh? Perhaps instead of trying to compare it with something you, and many others see as a failure, why not just try looking at it for itself?


McGentrix looks at one rail, and he asks us to imagine the other going in a direction perpendicular. The facts, to anyone save for the wilfully blind, tell us a different story.

Would you buy a used car from this man?

Will you now lead us into a discussion of why Vietnam was NOT a failure? How, McG, can you pack so much deception in one tiny little paragraph?


The only deception in that paragraph is the one you make up.

I did not say Vietnam was not a failure.


From this, I can only gather that you are much more devious than I have been led to believe by your other postings. As for the failures of Vietnam, you should take it up with that kind christian soul, Foxfyre. Perhaps you could level some of that moral indignation at her.

For her, 2 million weren't enough. She wanted the job to be done right. And you guys were going there to save them, right?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 08:57 am
Ticomaya wrote:
Perhaps the best comparison to Vietnam is the efforts of the anti-war leftists who actively worked against the US war interests back then, and are now similarly doing their best, holding to their view that because they want the US to lose this war they are being patriotic.

But of course that is simply my opinion on the matter.


Sorry, Tico, I've already put my shovel away for the day and I'm afraid it just wouldn't be up to the task anyway.

Who was it that had that front end loader?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 08:58 am
I'm not going to argue with your strawman JTT.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 09:11 am
McGentrix wrote:
"Spot on" my butt.

How do you compare the 1,647 casualties so far with the 50,000 from Vietnam?


I would call it worse than nam for the same amount of time...
Man walks into a bar with afrog on his head, orders a beer, bartender fills his order and asks'what's that? The frog answers 'dunno, it started out as a spot on my butt'.
I'd gget that checked if I were you.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2005 09:12 am
JTT wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Perhaps the best comparison to Vietnam is the efforts of the anti-war leftists who actively worked against the US war interests back then, and are now similarly doing their best, holding to their view that because they want the US to lose this war they are being patriotic.

But of course that is simply my opinion on the matter.


Sorry, Tico, I've already put my shovel away for the day and I'm afraid it just wouldn't be up to the task anyway.

Who was it that had that front end loader?


Did I ask you to do anything? Please feel free to ignore my posts in the future if you're not up to the task.
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