US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

Report in the New York Times today about prisoner abuse in Afghanistan, by US troops.

Unbe-f*cking-lievable.

City on the hill? Uh-huh.

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Shining City on the Hill, McT, don't leave out that important qualifier . . . we're the Shining City on the Hill . . . virtually blinding in its intensity, in fact . . .

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Lash wrote:

I heard today that it wasn't US guards watching (or taking pics of) Saddam.

Isn't he under Iraqi guard?

Doesn't matter a smeg who was guarding him.

The person who sold the photo needs to be punished.

Decent and legal treatment of prisoners isn't something we ought to be doing on a whether we like 'em or not basis. When you hold someone prisoner, if you claim to be a civilised country, you have an obligation to obey your own laws and reaties about their treatment.

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NYT Report:

In U.S. Report, Brutal Details of 2 Afghan Inmates' Deaths

Even as the young Afghan man was dying before them, his American jailers continued to torment him.

The prisoner, a slight, 22-year-old taxi driver known only as Dilawar, was hauled from his cell at the detention center in Bagram, Afghanistan, at around 2 a.m. to answer questions about a rocket attack on an American base. When he arrived in the interrogation room, an interpreter who was present said, his legs were bouncing uncontrollably in the plastic chair and his hands were numb. He had been chained by the wrists to the top of his cell for much of the previous four days.

Skip to next paragraph

Dilawar was an Afghan farmer and taxi driver who died while in custody of American troops.

THE BAGRAM FILE
First of two articles

The Bagram File

Along the Chain of Command, Confusion and Contradiction
Enlarge This Image

A sketch by Thomas V. Curtis, a Reserve M.P. sergeant, showing how Dilawar was chained to the ceiling of his cell.
Mr. Dilawar asked for a drink of water, and one of the two interrogators, Specialist Joshua R. Claus, 21, picked up a large plastic bottle. But first he punched a hole in the bottom, the interpreter said, so as the prisoner fumbled weakly with the cap, the water poured out over his orange prison scrubs. The soldier then grabbed the bottle back and began squirting the water forcefully into Mr. Dilawar's face.

"Come on, drink!" the interpreter said Specialist Claus had shouted, as the prisoner gagged on the spray. "Drink!"

At the interrogators' behest, a guard tried to force the young man to his knees. But his legs, which had been pummeled by guards for several days, could no longer bend. An interrogator told Mr. Dilawar that he could see a doctor after they finished with him. When he was finally sent back to his cell, though, the guards were instructed only to chain the prisoner back to the ceiling.

"Leave him up," one of the guards quoted Specialist Claus as saying.

Several hours passed before an emergency room doctor finally saw Mr. Dilawar. By then he was dead, his body beginning to stiffen. It would be many months before Army investigators learned a final horrific detail: Most of the interrogators had believed Mr. Dilawar was an innocent man who simply drove his taxi past the American base at the wrong time.

The story of Mr. Dilawar's brutal death at the Bagram Collection Point - and that of another detainee, Habibullah, who died there six days earlier in December 2002 - emerge from a nearly 2,000-page confidential file of the Army's criminal investigation into the case, a copy of which was obtained by The New York Times.

Like a narrative counterpart to the digital images from Abu Ghraib, the Bagram file depicts young, poorly trained soldiers in repeated incidents of abuse. The harsh treatment, which has resulted in criminal charges against seven soldiers, went well beyond the two deaths.

In some instances, testimony shows, it was directed or carried out by interrogators to extract information. In others, it was punishment meted out by military police guards. Sometimes, the torment seems to have been driven by little more than boredom or cruelty, or both.

In sworn statements to Army investigators, soldiers describe one female interrogator with a taste for humiliation stepping on the neck of one prostrate detainee and kicking another in the genitals. They tell of a shackled prisoner being forced to roll back and forth on the floor of a cell, kissing the boots of his two interrogators as he went. Yet another prisoner is made to pick plastic bottle caps out of a drum mixed with excrement and water as part of a strategy to soften him up for questioning.

The Times obtained a copy of the file from a person involved in the investigation who was critical of the methods used at Bagram and the military's response to the deaths.

Although incidents of prisoner abuse at Bagram in 2002, including some details of the two men's deaths, have been previously reported, American officials have characterized them as isolated problems that were thoroughly investigated. And many of the officers and soldiers interviewed in the Dilawar investigation said the large majority of detainees at Bagram were compliant and reasonably well treated.

"What we have learned through the course of all these investigations is that there were people who clearly violated anyone's standard for humane treatment," said the Pentagon's chief spokesman, Larry Di Rita. "We're finding some cases that were not close calls."..............

STORY CONTINUES AT LENGTH HERE

Interesting little sidebar on whom Ashcroft chose to run Iraqi prisons:

NATIONAL DESK | June 6, 2004, Sunday

Justice Dept. Report Shows Trouble in Private U.S. Jails Preceded Job Fixing Iraq's

By FOX BUTTERFIELD (NYT) 1541 words
Late Edition - Final , Section 1 , Page 22 , Column 1

ABSTRACT - Justice Dept report on Management and Training Corp's mismanagement of Santa Fe County, NM, Jail prompted United States Marshall's Service to withdraw 100 inmates housed there, but Atty Gen John Ashcroft chose MTC executive Lane McCotter to lead mission to restore Iraqi prisons one month after report was released in spring of 2003; McCotter chose Abu Ghraib as main US prison in Iraq and directed its reconstruction; McCotter left Iraq in September before worst abuses occurred at Abu Ghraib; MTC is being sued by Suzan Garcia, mother of inmate Tyson Johnson, who hanged himself at Santa Fe jail in Jan 2002; photo (M)

Right hand not knowing what left was doing?

Source (full article, sadly, requires payment)

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By the by, there were, some pages ago, snotty comments about how i probably voted in the poll. I did not respond, because it ought to be obvious that no partisan conclusions can be drawn from the terms of the poll. In fact, i did not vote, but since i'm the author of the thread (only in the sense of opening the continuation), i am able to see the results without voting, and there they are:

I'm right, and you're too dense to see it . . . -- 54%

No, I'm right, but you won't admit it . . . -- 9%

The pair of you are loons, as is plain to see . . . -- 36%

Yeah, i know, that adds up to 99%--but only 10 people voted, blame the system.

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

" But compared to certain european and asian countries I think the USA almost angelic ..." Go on spit it out man ...

19th Century
France

20th Century
Germany
USSR->Russia
Japan
China
North Vietnam
Cambodia
North Korea
Iraq

21st Century (so far)
Iraq

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Saddam not guarded by American military? Who are you kidding? Do you think the US would give over that control to Iraqis?

To play the devil's advocate here, is it just coincidence in the timing of the 'more public' awareness of US military's use of the Toran (Newsweek); and the sudden coming to light of Saddam in his undies in the British tabloids?

If one were a conspiracy guru, one might think that there was a movement afoot to "out" the US military into negative publicity.

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ican711nm wrote:

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
" But compared to certain european and asian countries I think the USA almost angelic ..." Go on spit it out man ...

19th Century
France

20th Century
Germany
USSR->Russia
Japan
China
North Vietnam
Cambodia
North Korea
Iraq

21st Century (so far)
Iraq

Yeppers.

No sane person tries to argue that the US is worse than previous imperial powers.

Thing is, you guys are right HERE - AND you keep trying to make yourselves out as holier than thou. That is why, for instance, people get peed off about the spin about treatment of your captives, versus the reality. And the real motives for the invasion of Iraq - versus the publicly stated ones.

(I get peed off about the destruction of the nascent fabric of international law, too - and the idea of you guys getting enough blood to your heads to believe your might is right, too. Eeeek.)

It is very galling.

Just as previous British Empire assumptions of having the right, the truth and the light were, for example.

Historically, I believe, you guys haven't been too fond of other empires thinking they can push YOU around, and are always right? Like the British Empire?

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Ah, the enlightenment of historical perspective.....

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Quasi-historical, you should not take that as a comprehensive statement--it barely skims the surface . . .

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It doesn't even skim the surface; it only distorts what is really happening at the hands of US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. It doesn't matter what others did in history; we should be concerned about what our troops are doing today and tomorrow. Wake up, people!

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Quite to the point, C.I. . . . and thank you for pointing it out . . .

The "oh yeah, well look what he did" argument is awfully shopworn . . .

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Skims the surface, to be sure, and broadly painted at best. Yet a thought to be kept in mind.

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What continues to dismay me is the fanatical compulsion of too many to judge the USA from a different historical perspective than we judge say the european and asian nations listed below:

19th Century
France;

20th Century
Germany
USSR->Russia
Japan
China
North Vietnam
Cambodia
North Korea
Iraq;

21st Century (so far)
Iraq.

Yes, the USA is flawed. I think it is seriously flawed compared to the idealistic utopian vision I wish for it. But compared to those european and asian countries listed above, I think the USA almost angelic and easily deserving of the "rah-rah rhetoric" of genuine patriotism.

The stupid or evil policy of supporting those corrupt or tyrannical governments and/or groups who oppose our enemies is an example of one of our many flaws. It's long past time for us to stop doing that. It's long past time for us to oppose such governments and/or groups.

And, thankfully, we have already begun to make some small progress correcting that flaw. Not enough for me yet. But reaching perfection usually takes awhile. After all, two-hundred-twenty-nine years is little more than one tenth of one percent of the alleged almost two hundred thousand years of human existence.

Historically, I agree we have usually been late in correcting our flaws, but "better late than never." I expect we will continue to be late but nonetheless relentlessly reducing our tardiness.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

It doesn't even skim the surface; it only distorts what is really happening at the hands of US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. It doesn't matter what others did in history; we should be concerned about what our troops are doing today and tomorrow. Wake up, people!

What you posted here is part of the all too pervasive bigoted damning of all our troops--and all the majority of the USA too--for the reprehensible acts of some of our troops. It reveals you and other such damners to be far more damnable than the damnees.

Those in the military identified and convicted guilty of reprehensible acts are being brought to justice. Their deplorable behavior is not approved by our administration and is continually being rooted out. That's how you find out about it.

It does matter what others did in history. It does matter so that we can evaluate our own progress against the progress of others. Measuring anything against perfection contributes only discouragement and eventual abandonment of continual real and not make-believe efforts to really improve.

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Ah yes, we are so angelic . . .

Augusto Pinochet
Ferdinand Marcos
Anastasio Somoza
Fulgencio Batista
Roberto d'Aubisson
Manuel Noriega

. . . just a short list of some of our "angelic" allies.

It is more than a little niave to suggest that the United States has never indulged in a ". . . stupid or evil policy of supporting those corrupt or tyrannical governments."

(P.S. -- you really got a hard-on about France, don't ya Bubba? I notice how glaringly small your 19th century list is, here is a revised list, in alphabetical order to avoid implications of degrees of culpability, of nations which made war on weaker nations to their own profit, and for purposes of imperial expansion, or which indulged in brutal suppression of popular uprisings. Most nations in the list are guilty of both:

19th Century

Austria
France
Great Britain
Prussia
Russia
United States . . .

the selectivity of the original list made by Ican is very revealing of the extent to which he wears partisan colored glasses . . . )

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Ican, have you read the abuse reports coming out? By any modern day democratic standards, the actions the US has carried out is unacceptable.

If there are other actions by other nations that are worse it does not clean our actions nor does it take away our guilt.

Do we want to be like North Korea and Iraq (pre-war)? If so we are heading in a good direction.

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Setanta wrote:

Ah yes, we are so angelic . . .

Augusto Pinochet
Ferdinand Marcos
Anastasio Somoza
Fulgencio Batista
Roberto d'Aubisson
Manuel Noriega

. . . just a short list of some of our "angelic" allies.

You appear to suffer a reading comprehension limitation. Here it is again with the pertinent paragraphs printed larger to help you.

ican711nm wrote:

What continues to dismay me is the compulsion of too many to judge the USA from a different historical perspective than we judge say the european and asian nations listed below:

19th Century
France;

20th Century
Germany
USSR->Russia
Japan
China
North Vietnam
Cambodia
North Korea
Iraq;

21st Century (so far)
Iraq.

Yes, the USA is flawed. I think it is seriously flawed compared to the idealistic utopian vision I wish for it. But compared to those european and asian countries listed above, I think the USA almost angelic and easily deserving of the “rah-rah rhetoric” of genuine patriotism.

The stupid or evil policy of supporting those corrupt or tyrannical governments and/or groups who oppose our enemies is an example of one of our many flaws. It's long past time for us to stop doing that. It's long past time for us to oppose such governments and/or groups.

And, thankfully, we have already begun to make some small progress correcting that flaw. Not enough for me yet. But reaching perfection usually takes awhile. After all, two-hundred-twenty-nine years is little more than one tenth of one percent of the alleged almost two hundred thousand years of human existence.

Historically, I agree we have usually been late in correcting our flaws, but “better late than never.” I expect we will continue to be late but nonetheless relentlessly reducing our tardiness.

Setanta wrote:

It is more than a little niave to suggest that the United States has never indulged in a ". . . stupid or evil policy of supporting those corrupt or tyrannical governments."

Obviously true! Who did that naive suggesting?

More later!

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The basic "oh yeah, well look at what them other guys did" argument is flawed not only because of the preponderant evidence that every powerful goverment on earth are or have been a bunch of greedy, venal robber-barons--it is beggared by the sanctimonious appeals to our moral superiority and inherent virtue.

Simply pointing out that we are no worse than others, and then having the gaul to suggest we are improving, in light of Gitmo and Abu Graib, is more than naive, it is willfully dishonest.

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Let me see if i can follow the "logic" of the argument. Other guys were so, so bad in the past, but we have reformed and we are getting better, getting better all the time.

And the evidence of this is? Bombing the bejesus out of Iraq, resulting in tens of thousands of non-combatant deaths? Torturing and humiliating prisoners--'scuse me "detainees"--in Afghanistan and Iraq? Holding said "detainees" indefinitely, and justifying the action based upon them being terrorists, without bothering to show that they are indeed terrorists by due process of law? Smearing and sneering at alleged Oil for Food profiteers--so long as no one mentions Americans who so profiteered?

Impart your great wisdom to me, so that i, humble sinner that i be, may understand.

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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

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