US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

Oh, Setanta, why do you insist on holding the US up to some Utopian standard when it is obvious that everyone else has been so much worse and noone has ever been as good as us and even if we do some bad things, well, we're not the worst sort of dictatorship and even when we do a lot of bad things we're still not as bad as Saddam who disappeared people and beat them to death on a regular basis..... oh wait..... nevermind

Cycloptichorn

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My father plays dominoes better than your father plays dominoes amen ...go forth my son and be ignorant no mo+++++

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But my father plays chess better n your pa. How that reflects on you is an entirely different matter.

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Another success in Iraq: from BBC.

Angry Sunnis shut Baghdad mosques

Sunni worshippers have been told to stay where they are to pray
Sunni mosques in Baghdad have been closed to worshippers as part of a three-day protest against a recent series of killings of Sunni Muslims.
Traditional calls to prayer came with an additional request that the faithful say their prayers wherever they were.

The action comes at a time of growing tension between the Sunni community and Iraq's Shia majority.

Sunni clerics have accused a Shia militia known as the Badr brigades of involvement in the killings.

The brigades, which are affiliated to one of the main parties in the new government, have rejected the accusation.

Meanwhile a group of about 1,000 leading Sunni Arabs, meeting in Baghdad, called for the resignation of Interior Minister Bayan Baqir Solagh over the deaths.

"We ask for the creation of an independent investigation team to look into the murders, the torture of detainees and we demand the interior minister's dismissal," a statement by the group said.

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Setanta wrote:

... you really got a hard-on about France, don't ya Bubba? I notice how glaringly small your 19th century list is, here is a revised list, in alphabetical order to avoid implications of degrees of culpability, of nations which made war on weaker nations to their own profit, and for purposes of imperial expansion, or which indulged in brutal suppression of popular uprisings. Most nations in the list are guilty of both:

19th Century

Austria
France
Great Britain
Prussia
Russia
United States . . .

the selectivity of the original list made by Ican is very revealing of the extent to which he wears partisan colored glasses . . . )

Again you need help in reading comprehension:

ican711nm wrote:

What continues to dismay me is the fanatical compulsion of too many to judge the USA from a different historical perspective than we judge say the european and asian nations listed below:

19th Century
France;

20th Century
Germany
USSR->Russia
Japan
China
North Vietnam
Cambodia
North Korea
Iraq;

21st Century (so far)
Iraq.

say in this context is understood by the adequately educated to mean say for example. I selected these particular countries because they have historically and/or currently been the ones most critical of historical and/or current US behavior. This despite the fact that these countries have been and/or are quilty of far more reprehensible acts.

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Now that only the US and Iraq (so far) are the only two reprehenisble actors of the 21st century, only the US is actively working to worsen past history.

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Ican wrote:

This despite the fact that these countries have been and/or are quilty of far more reprehensible acts.

Although uncertain if you accuse these nations of being fond of quilts, i'll assume you are referring to guilt.

So you believe you can say without equivocation that these nations were guilty of far worse actions than:

Invading Mexico on a flimsy pretext, defeating them in the field, and then forcing them to accept $15,000,000 for the one third of their sovereign territory which we had stolen.

Attacking Spain on a flimsy pretext, and then taking Cuba, Puerto Rico (despite their objection and their armed resistance) and the Philippines.

Subsequently killing Hukbalahaps and Moros in their thousands because they objected to the tender mercies of American occupation of the Philippines.

Invading Nicaragua and using the United States Marines to suppress a popular uprising, and tracking down and killing Augusto Sandino, and then subsequently installing the Samosa regime.

Invading both Haiti and the Dominican Republic (the two nations on the island of Hispaniola, immediately east of Cuba and west of Puerto Rico) more times since the first "intervention" in the 1790's than it would be reasonable to post here, due to space limitations. The last American "intervention" in the Dominican Republic took place in 1965. The last "intervention" in Haiti took place in 1994.

Supporting the brutal and murderous regime of Ferdinand Marcos in the Philippines. (Seems we just love to torment those Philippinos.)

Supporting the right-wing death sqads of Roberto d'Aubisson in El Salvador.

Engineering a coup against the democratically elected government of Salvadore Allende in Chile through the connivance of the CIA, demonstrated in declassified American documents, with Augusto Pinochet.

Connivance with the brutal and murderous Ba'atist Arab Socialist Party in Iraq, and its leader, Saddam Hussein.

The list could be much longer . . .

. . . so your contention is that we are in a "holier than thou" position with regard to the nations you have listed?

Where do you read history, Classic Comics?

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Even comic books are not "that" stupid. Wink

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Even comic books are not "that" stupid. Wink

Besides, I enjoy comic books.

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From NYT:

Sunni Arabs Are Uniting to Compete With Shiites

By SABRINA TAVERNISE and RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr.
Published: May 22, 2005
BAGHDAD, Iraq, May 21 - Sunni Arab political leaders, sheiks and clerics pledged Saturday to come together in a broad Sunni political alliance to compete with the dominant Shiites in the next election, even as Sunnis across the capital closed mosques to protest what they say have been abuses by Iraq's predominantly Shiite security forces.

In a meeting that underscored how politically isolated and embittered Sunnis have become, more than 2,000 Sunni Arabs gathered at a social club in Baghdad on Saturday, and in speech after speech called on fellow Sunnis to throw their efforts into politics.

The gathering, organized by three prominent religious groups, occurred amid increased tensions between Sunnis, who once ran the government, and Shiites, who took power for the first time in Iraqi history in national elections in January. Sunni Arabs largely boycotted the elections and as a result are thinly represented in the National Assembly, which is responsible for writing a new constitution.

But the group that took the lead role in negotiations with Shiites for positions in the new cabinet, the National Dialogue Council, was not invited to take part in the meeting, an absence that did not bode well for the attempt to bring all Iraq's Sunni Arabs together. "They represent themselves," said Tarik al-Hashimy, the leader of the Iraqi Islamic Party, one of the conference organizers. "They have no roots in society."

Sunni leaders at the conference, whose delegates included a broad base of sheiks and clerics from Baghdad and nearby cities, expressed regret that Sunnis had fallen behind politically, but vowed to catch up by making alliances and coming out in full force for the next round of elections, scheduled to be held in December.

"This election made a lot of changes in the political situation," said Adnan Mohamed al-Dulaimy, the director of the Sunni Endowment, which manages Sunni mosques. "We're going to start working and the next election, we'll be in. We're a big group, not just a few families."

But the message was mixed, as the same groups that called for political participation pressed their demand that dozens of Baghdad Sunni mosques be temporarily closed, an order that clerics appear to have obeyed, with at least four mosques in central Baghdad locked.

The violence continued in Sunni areas of the country on Saturday. In Baiji, 120 miles north of Baghdad, gunmen opened fire on commandos from the Iraqi Interior Ministry driving on the main highway between Tikrit and Mosul about 1 a.m., killing four and wounding two others, the Interior Ministry said.

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revel wrote:

Ican, have you read the abuse reports coming out? By any modern day democratic standards, the actions the US has carried out is unacceptable.
The alleged abuses of some prisoners by some in the US military is deplorable. The perpetrators of that abuse must be held accountable for that abuse.

If there are other actions by other nations that are worse it does not clean our actions nor does it take away our guilt.
Nor does it take away the guilt of the alleged perpetrators of prisoner abuse. But it is pure bigotry to claim the majority of the US and/or the majority of our military are as guilty as the actual alleged perpetrators. That all-you-share-the-guilt syndrom is no less reprehensible than accusing all the members of a race, gender, ethnic group, or economic class for all the evil perpetrations of some of their members.

Do we want to be like North Korea and Iraq (pre-war)?
Hell No! Neither do we want to be like North Korea subsequently. Nor do we want to be like the BAQWM (i.e., Baathist-al-Qaeda-Wahhabi Murderers) in Iraq subsequently. Only since the Iraqi elections, the BAQWM have murdered over 500 (and counting) Iraqi civilians --where's your moral outrage about that?

If so we are heading in a good direction.
We the US are not headed in the direction of being like the North Koreans. And, we the US are certainly not heading in the direction of being like either the Saddam regime or the BAQWM.

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Talk about "mixed messages," from NYT:

U.S. Memo Faults Afghan Leader on Heroin Fight

By DAVID S. CLOUD
and CARLOTTA GALL
Published: May 22, 2005
WASHINGTON, May 21 - United States officials warned this month in an internal assessment that an American-financed poppy eradication program aimed at curtailing Afghanistan's huge heroin trade had been ineffective, in part because President Hamid Karzai "has been unwilling to assert strong leadership."

A cable sent on May 13 from the United States Embassy in Kabul, the Afghan capital, said that provincial officials and village elders, many of whom are suspected of having ties to the drug trade, had impeded destruction of significant poppy acreage and that top Afghan officials, including Mr. Karzai, had done little to overcome the local resistance.

"Although President Karzai has been well aware of the difficulty in trying to implement an effective ground eradication program, he has been unwilling to assert strong leadership, even in his own province of Kandahar," said the cable, which was drafted by embassy personnel involved in the anti-drug efforts, two American officials said.

A copy of the three-page cable, which was addressed to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, was shown to The New York Times by an American official alarmed at the slow pace of the destruction of poppy fields.

The cable also faulted Britain, which has the top responsibility for counternarcotics assistance in Afghanistan, for being "substantially responsible" for the failure to eradicate more acreage. British personnel choose where the poppy eradication teams work, but the cable said that those areas were often not the main growing areas and that the British had been unwilling to revise targets.

In Washington, State Department officials defended Mr. Karzai, who is scheduled to visit next week, saying the effort had been hampered by bad weather and logistical problems as well as by political resistance.

"President Karzai is a strong partner and we have confidence in him," said the State Department spokesman, Richard A. Boucher. "We are succeeding in our overall effort" to address the drug problem.

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Setanta wrote:

Let me see if i can follow the "logic" of the argument. Other guys were so, so bad in the past, but we have reformed and we are getting better, getting better all the time.

And the evidence of this is? Bombing the bejesus out of Iraq, resulting in tens of thousands of non-combatant deaths? Torturing and humiliating prisoners--'scuse me "detainees"--in Afghanistan and Iraq? Holding said "detainees" indefinitely, and justifying the action based upon them being terrorists, without bothering to show that they are indeed terrorists by due process of law? Smearing and sneering at alleged Oil for Food profiteers--so long as no one mentions Americans who so profiteered?

Impart your great wisdom to me, so that i, humble sinner that i be, may understand.

Setanta, whose argument are you writing about? It sure as hell isn't mine!

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Set, It's very evident to this reader that some people will never connect the dots. It's a hopeless case of trying to teach a monkey to read and understand the relationships.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Set, It's very evident to this reader that some people will never connect the dots. It's a hopeless case of trying to teach a monkey to read and understand the relationships.

CI, don't be so hard on yourself!

Granted that repeatedly mischaracterizing what your opposition posts makes you look like a fool. Also vilifying your opposition is tantamount to confessing you don't know how to provide a rational rebuttal. But you can correct all that.

I think you can solve your problem by studying what your opposition actually posts. Then if you're able, post a rational rebuttal to what your opposition actually posts.

On the other hand, you might clear up your confusion by asking your opposition questions whose answers may help you understand the actual points your opposition has posted.

Or, you could do both! Smile

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What makes you think we have any desire to understand your posts?

If you wished your posts to be understood, you would present them in a clearer fashion. You don't, ergo, you don't. It's not a problem for us near as much as it is a problem for you, now is it?

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

What makes you think we have any desire to understand your posts?

If you wished your posts to be understood, you would present them in a clearer fashion. You don't, ergo, you don't. It's not a problem for us near as much as it is a problem for you, now is it?

Cycloptichorn

What specifically is confusing to you about the following?

ican711nm wrote:

What continues to dismay me is the compulsion of too many to judge the USA from a different historical perspective than we judge say the european and asian nations listed below:

19th Century
France;

20th Century
Germany
USSR->Russia
Japan
China
North Vietnam
Cambodia
North Korea
Iraq;

21st Century (so far)
Iraq.

Yes, the USA is flawed. I think it is seriously flawed compared to the idealistic utopian vision I wish for it. But compared to those european and asian countries listed above, I think the USA almost angelic and easily deserving of the “rah-rah rhetoric” of genuine patriotism.

The stupid or evil policy of supporting those corrupt or tyrannical governments and/or groups who oppose our enemies is an example of one of our many flaws. It's long past time for us to stop doing that. It's long past time for us to oppose such governments and/or groups.

And, thankfully, we have already begun to make some small progress correcting that flaw. Not enough for me yet. But reaching perfection usually takes awhile. After all, two-hundred-twenty-nine years is little more than one tenth of one percent of the alleged almost two hundred thousand years of human existence.

Historically, I agree we have usually been late in correcting our flaws, but “better late than never.” I expect we will continue to be late but nonetheless relentlessly reducing our tardiness.

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Well Ican's posts are understood by me. But for those who prefer to pile on with ridicule and criticism rather than make a positive contribution to the discussion, Atkins resurfaced a old term recently: claque.

It requires no thought, no courage, and no imagination to be a really good member of a defamatory claque.

US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

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