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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 10:21 am
Whoops, sorry for the duplicate

But there are actually 7 more pages inside

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 10:25 am
Cyclo, No need to be sorry; it was worth the duplicate.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 10:37 am
I didn't see this posted already, sorry if it's another dupe.

Quote:
Red Cross warned U.S. over Quran
Allegations of mishandling preceded Pentagon guidelines
From Elise Labott
CNN Washington Bureau

Thursday, May 19, 2005 Posted: 11:29 PM EDT (0329 GMT)



Protesters burn a U.S. flag Sunday in Peshawar, Pakistan.


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Newsweek retracted its story about Quran desecration.

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WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The International Committee of the Red Cross gathered "credible" reports about U.S. personnel at the Guantanamo Bay naval base disrespecting the Quran and raised the issue with the Pentagon several times, a group spokesman said Thursday.

Simon Schorno said the allegations were made by detainees to Red Cross representatives who visited the detention facility throughout 2002 and 2003.

State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said Thursday the Pentagon in 2003 issued strict guidelines on how U.S. personnel should handle the Quran.

Schorno said the Red Cross heard no more allegations about mishandling of the Quran after the guidelines were issued.


Lots more in the link

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/19/icrc.quran/index.html

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 11:07 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I didn't see this posted already, sorry if it's another dupe.



Actually, I've posted that yesterday (or even before) already, gave a reminder to it later - but in all lively discussions both was ignored :wink:
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 11:18 am
Yar! I'm going back to bed

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 01:11 pm
Talk about chuzpah:

"Saddam to sue over prison photos

The Sun says this is an "extraordinary iconic news image"

Saddam Hussein plans to take legal action after a British newspaper published photos of him half-naked in his prison cell and doing his washing.
"We will sue the newspaper and everyone who helped in showing these pictures," said Saddam Hussein's chief lawyer Ziad Al-Khasawneh, speaking from Jordan."

This guy who is responsible for the killing of innocents by the thousands has the gall to sue the media showing him half-dressed.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 01:31 pm
I don't know whether to laugh or cry, which is quite common of me. Being ashamed of this country has also become almost a permanent mindset.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 01:50 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:

This guy who is responsible for the killing of innocents by the thousands has the gall to sue the media showing him half-dressed.


I can understand that people think so, but on the other hand he's still in prison, and in most all civilised countries (besides the USA) even prisoners (and Saddam isn't even cnvicted yet) have some human dignity:
Article 13 of the 1949 Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisoners of War says "Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated" and protected from "insults and public curiosity"; Article 14 says they are entitled to "respect for their persons and their honour".
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 02:06 pm
Previously undisclosed US military documents show ongoing Iraqi mistreatment of prisoners, including photos of bruised and beaten detainees, which US officials fear may damage the image of the new security forces in the eyes of the Iraqi public.

Quote:
Army Warns Iraqi Forces On Abuse Of Detainees

By Bradley Graham
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, May 20, 2005; A01



BAGHDAD, May 19 -- Before leaving Iraq in February, the 1st Cavalry Division compiled a list of more than 100 allegations of abusive treatment of detainees over the previous six months -- not by U.S. troops, but by Iraqi soldiers and police.

The 3rd Infantry Division, which has since taken over responsibility for the Baghdad region, has recorded 28 more such allegations, 15 of which have been substantiated, division lawyers say.

These previously undisclosed U.S. military records documenting Iraqi mistreatment of detainees, often accompanied by photos showing prisoners bruised or cut, highlight what U.S. commanders are calling a high-priority concern. As Iraq's military and police assume greater responsibility for fighting insurgents, senior U.S. officers say they have cautioned Iraqi authorities repeatedly -- in formal letters from commanders and in face-to-face encounters at detention centers and elsewhere -- against abusing prisoners.

This effort has led to friction between U.S. and Iraqi forces in the field, with Iraqis at times questioning demands for humane treatment of enemy fighters who themselves show no respect for the laws of war. U.S. officers say they regularly warn the Iraqis that failure to curtail abusive behavior could tarnish the image of the new security services, risking a loss of Iraqi public support and jeopardizing U.S. and other foreign assistance.

Privately, U.S. commanders also express worry about their troops getting drawn into an Iraqi dirty war, particularly as several thousand military advisers embed this year with Iraqi units, putting them in a position to witness abusive action or be accused of acquiescing to it. The U.S. military has spent the past year struggling to get out from under the shadow of mistreatment by U.S. soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison and other detention facilities in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

In a letter last month to troops preparing to serve as advisers to Iraqi units, Army Gen. George Casey, the senior U.S. officer in Iraq, said one of their principal missions would be to ensure that Iraqi forces understood and complied with proper standards of detainee treatment.

"It is very important that we never turn a blind eye to abuses, thinking that what Iraqis do with their own detainees is 'Iraqi business,' " Casey wrote, according to a copy of the letter made available to The Washington Post. "Nor can we wink at suspected transgressions."

On April 29, Lt. Gen. John Vines, the senior U.S. tactical commander, issued an order requiring all U.S. forces to prevent, where possible, any abusive treatment by Iraqi forces and to report all such incidents of abuse up the chain of command.

"We don't expect our soldiers to do a formal investigation, but we expect them to get the basic facts -- what Iraqi unit did this, what are the names of the soldiers involved, who else witnessed it -- and get statements and photos the best they can," said a senior lawyer on Vines's staff who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The lawyer said command staff members had not focused on how to approach the issue of Iraqi treatment of detainees until they arrived in February and received the confidential records compiled by the 1st Cavalry. Those records revealed a range of methods in use. A summary page, shown to The Post, cited "assault with fists, wooden sticks, cords and weapons" and "beatings done with electrical cables." It also said "electrical shock and choking" were "consistently used to achieve confessions."

"Once we saw that, we began to think through the process of what we needed to do, and, quite frankly, we're still working through it," the lawyer said.

Iraq's treatment of detainees has drawn criticism from human rights groups. A 94-page report by Human Rights Watch in January concluded that abuse by the Iraqi police and intelligence forces had become "routine and commonplace." Based on research between July and October last year, the study found "little indication" of any serious measures "to enforce existing laws and put an end to" the mistreatment.

Senior members of the new Iraqi government have assured U.S. commanders in private conversations that they are aware of the problem and committed to addressing it, according to several U.S. officers. But spokesmen for the Defense and Interior ministries and the prime minister's office said this week that they were unaware of specific U.S. military reports alleging abuse of detainees by Iraqi forces.

The issue has gained urgency in recent months as Iraqi security forces have expanded and begun conducting counterinsurgency operations on their own. Prisoners taken in operations led by U.S. forces are still sent to U.S.-run detention facilities. But insurgents captured in Iraqi-led raids now often end up being detained by the Iraqis and at times subjected to harsh interrogations.

Iraqi forces receive some instruction about human rights and the laws of armed conflict during U.S.-designed basic training programs, and U.S. soldiers are giving additional guidance to those responsible for running prisons. But the advice has tended to be general, lacking many of the specifics in the U.S. Army's recently revised field manual for handling detainees.

"We've given them recommended guidance," said Capt. Jacob Lilly, the 3rd Infantry's chief counsel for detainee operations. "But we haven't gotten that detailed."

Under the order issued by Vines, reports of alleged Iraqi abuses documented by U.S. forces are to be reviewed by division commanders, then passed up to Vines and Casey and forwarded to Iraqi provincial or national authorities.

Sometimes senior U.S. commanders become personally involved. This month, for instance, Army Lt. Gen. David H. Petraeus, who is leading the effort to develop Iraq's security forces, delivered what witnesses described as a stern warning to senior members of the Major Crimes Unit, the country's equivalent of the FBI.

The warning followed an incident at the Rusafa police station in Baghdad during a visit by U.S. forces and an international police liaison team. Hearing screams in a second-floor room, the group investigated and found an Iraqi brigadier general and two police commissioners with a detainee who was "crying and hopping from foot to foot," according to a U.S. report. The detainee had been "questioned on theft of money" from Iraq's banking system, the report said.

The Iraqi general acknowledged that the detainee had been hit a few times "to get more information," the report said. Searching the room, the U.S. visitors identified "two plastic hoses, a large rolling pin with a rope through it and a hand-cranked generator with wire clamps," the report said.

The group went to see an Iraqi two-star general at the station about the matter, but the general offered "no response," the report said. Returning to the interrogation room, members of the group saw the detainee being questioned again and observed that "he had changed his story about what had happened to him." They then removed the man from the station "for his own safety," the report said.

Petraeus, according to participants in the meeting, told the members of the Major Crimes Unit that such mistreatment would jeopardize their operation by undermining public and international regard for their activities. "You can't allow the new Iraq to treat people the way Saddam did," he reportedly said.

The head of the Major Crimes Unit has told U.S. officers that the incident is under investigation and that the findings will be reported to the interior minister.

In classes and conversations on the handling of detainees, Iraqi soldiers often challenge the idea that international human rights conventions should apply to insurgents, several officers said.

"One of the most frequent questions we're asked is, 'Why do we have to treat these people humanely, because their only aim is to kill us?' " said Col. William Hudson, senior lawyer for the 3rd Infantry Division.

Lilly concurred. "The number one question we get from Iraqi interrogators is, 'How am I going to break these guys if I can't use physical force?' " he said.

Special correspondent Naseer Nouri contributed to this report.

Source
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 03:03 pm
Walter, Saddam is a special case where "dignity and honour" is an oxymoron. That he deserves a fair trial is not in question; never implied it wasn't. Sensitivities to religious belief is fine, but it's a stretch to say Saddam is a true Muslim who followed its teachings.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 03:52 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
This guy who is responsible for the killing of innocents by the thousands has the gall to sue the media showing him half-dressed.


Refreshing to hear this from you c.i.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 03:53 pm
Setanta wrote:
... Ican has demonstrated, although without naming or linking his source, that Carter began a policy which Reagan continued. I think most here are in agreement that it was the correct policy. I don't doubt that Ican's information is correct, and so haven't taken him to task for the sloppy job of presenting it as a statement from authority without attribution.


Yes, it was a sloppy job of attribution. Herein, I shall attempt to correct that.

cicerone imposter wrote:
Read this link if you think you can handle the truth.
http://www.nothingnewunderthesun.org/alciada.htm


I think it accurate.

However, I cannot prove that! :wink:

FROM THE LINK PROVIDED BY CICERONE IMPOSTER (PLEASE SEE ABOVE): FOR EXAMPLE (boldface emphasis added by ican)

Quote:
On July 3,1979, President Carter signed a directive ordering secret aid and covert support for the mujahideen opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul, Afghanistan. In December of 1979, the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, after which the CIA publicly aided the mujahedeen. The objective was to trap the Soviets in a long and costly war designed to drain their resources, much as the war in Vietnam had done to the United States.

The mujahedeen consisted of at least seven major factions, which fought amongst themselves for control over territory and the opium trade. The U.S., in order to covertly combat the Soviet Union, chose to give aid to the most extreme groups. When Ronald Reagan became president in 1981, he praised the mujahedeen as “freedom fighters” and increased aid to the Afghan warlords. The U.S. worked closely with Pakistan in providing this aid to the mujahedeen.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 04:24 pm
Setanta wrote:
... What dismays me the most is the rah-rah rhetoric of a phoney patriotism, advanced to suggest that we are and always have been morally superior, and have only wanted the best for the peoples of other nations. Such an attitude is comensurate with the basic good nature and generosity of the American people. It is the worst hypocricy of venal administrations of either description for that last half-century, and the foolish American electorate are now going to be obliged to pay the price . . . for a long time to come.


What dismays me the most is the inclination of too many to judge the USA from a different historical perspective than we judge say certain european and asian nations.

Yes, the USA is flawed. I think it is seriously flawed compared to the idealistic utopian vision I wish for it. But compared to certain european and asian countries I think the USA almost angelic and easily deserving of the rah-rah rhetoric of genuine patriotism.

The stupid or evil policy of supporting those corrupt or tyrannical governments and/or groups who oppose our enemies is an example of one of our many flaws. It's long past time for us to stop doing that. It's long past time for us to oppose such governments and/or groups.

Hmmmmm

And, I think we have already begun to make some small progress correcting that flaw. Not enough for me yet. But reaching perfection usually takes awhile. After all, two-hundred-twenty-nine years is hardly more than one tenth of one percent of the alleged almost two hundred thousand years of human existence.

Historically, I agree we have usually been late in correcting our flaws, but better late than never. I expect we will continue to be late but relentlessly reducing our tardiness.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 04:27 pm
Quote, " But compared to certain european and asian countries I think the USA almost angelic and easily deserving of the rah-rah rhetoric of genuine patriotism." We are the European and Asian (and others) nation called America. What's your point?
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 04:30 pm
I heard today that it wasn't US guards watching (or taking pics of) Saddam.

Isn't he under Iraqi guard?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 04:46 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Quote, " But compared to certain european and asian countries I think the USA almost angelic and easily deserving of the rah-rah rhetoric of genuine patriotism." We are the European and Asian (and others) nation called America. What's your point?

"What you mean we, paleface?" Smile
What's your question?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 04:48 pm
Lash wrote:
I heard today that it wasn't US guards watching (or taking pics of) Saddam.

Isn't he under Iraqi guard?


Yes, but it happened on Bush's watch! .............. Razz
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 04:55 pm
The ABC newscast I just watched had a quote from Senior Pentagon officials saying it was almost 100% sure that it was taken last spring by a member of the special forces Platoon guarding Saddam.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 05:14 pm
" But compared to certain european and asian countries I think the USA almost angelic ..."

Go on spit it out man

you are talking about ireland, Taiwan, Poland, Portugal, Indonesia....aren't you?


Angelic...ahhhh. Good night Ican and sweet dreams
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 05:14 pm
If you don't understand who the "we" is, I'm not about to try to explain it; ask your child.
0 Replies
 
 

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