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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 09:23 pm
But, ofcoarse! What else?
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 09:25 pm
Set spoke of two points, which I would like to add to:

Quote:
1. What is coming home to roost for us now is the result of a continuation of operational method which American administrations, Republican and Democrat, have followed since the end of the Second World War. Whether it was Kennedy complicit in the assassination of Diem in order to erect a puppet regime, or Rummy with his best ****-eatin' grin shaking Hussein's hand, the MO has been the same for fifty years. But as the street wisdom observes, what comes around goes around. We have gotten bit in the ass, and bit hard, because we have treated foreign states and the peoples of those states cavalierly and with arrogant contempt for more than fifty years.



2. What dismays me the most is the rah-rah rhetoric of a phoney patriotism, advanced to suggest that we are and always have been morally superior, and have only wanted the best for the peoples of other nations. Such an attitude is comensurate with the basic good nature and generosity of the American people. It is the worst hypocricy of venal administrations of either description for that last half-century, and the foolish American electorate are now going to be obliged to pay the price . . . for a long time to come.


1. It would seem to me that a great deal of foreign policy, military plans of action and execution, public pronoucements, etc., have been based on a chain of assumptions that a will necessarily lead to b, which will necessarily lead to c, and so on. Setting in motion a doomed series of events, which are difficult, if not impossible, to back out of once their fallacy comes to light. This builds into the very process the need to create a bull **** 'perception is reality' to damage control and thought and impression management at all levels of government. Ours, and all others.

2. Set's second comments are examples of rhetoric used to further the aims above and justify past and anticipated actions.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 09:35 pm
What galls me the most in all of this is the hubristic arrogance of Central Intelligence, when all the while they have demonstrated a consistent incompetence over the last half-century. Wild Bill Donovan and the OSS were all field men, who were in direct contact with the situations they monitored, and who ran their agents from just behind the lines. Central Intelligence quickly became, however, an Ivory Tower institution, a group of Ivy Leaguers who disdained to get their shoes spattered with mud, and who simply threw money around, hired the most menacing looking thugs available and proceeded in an appallingly ham-fisted manner.

East Germany's Stasi, the Israeli Mossad and England's MI5 and MI6 have all shown that these activities (and i am referring to activities about which i am making no moral judgments) can be carried out efficiently and effectively, and with little need for damage control, because they don't--excuse the crudity--habitually step on their own dicks. Considering what our bloated "intelligence community" costs us, it has been a scandalous rip-off from start to finish.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 09:40 pm
The notion that LBJ and Robert MacNamara were "duped" into a war in Vietnam is not consistent with the facts. They actively embraced the war and swiftly accelerated the infusion of American military men and infrastructure into what, until 1964 was a rather low order operation. Following the admittedly ambiguous episode with the destroyers Maddox & Turner Joy, they launched an escalation of the fighting and of our presence there that, in its speed and scope, was quite out of proportion to the provocation (if it was that.).

The ample record of LBJs writings and taped telephone calls establishes that at least to many of his callers he was mindful of the "domino effect" and determined to stop what he termed as Communist aggression controlled in Moscow and Peking (as it was then written). MacNamara, convinced that he knew better than those whose profession was war, took close personal direction of the military campaign. His main contribution was a mass of statistics (body counts, tons of bombs dropped, etc.) by which he measured our "success", and exacting, control of even the smallest details, including the targets the Navy and Air Force fighters would hit every day . He categorically rejected a Navy proposal to mine (and close) the port of Haiphong, (a decision that Richard Nixon finally reversed six years later, with instant beneficial effect), and, during 1996 and 1997 forbade a U.S. air attack on the assembly area in Hanoi where the NV were rapidly assembling hundreds of surface to air missiles, delivered by ship from the Soviet Union through the open port of Haiphong. Later, after the SAMs were operational we were directed to attack the sites, taking considerable losses in the process.

Sadly the military leadership did not stand up to what most of us (even junior Lieutenants in my squadron) saw as quite obvious folly. Worse they failed to object to the folly of fighting a prolonged colonial war with a conscript army. They then compounded the effect by rotating individual troops in and out of units that remained there, more or less permanently, destroying any vestiges of unit cohesion that might remain. In the Army one did his year in 'Nam, then "back to the world". The air and ground campaigns were executed on an "on again, off again " basis designed to persuade the NV to negotiate, when all it did was enable them to prepare unmolested for the next round. The strategic incompetence at that level. particularly in the early years of the war, was mind-boggling, and I attribute most of it it to LBJ and MacNamara
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 09:44 pm
For the record, i have not suggested that either Johnson or MacNamara were "duped" into anything. You might do me the courtesy of not assuming what i mean unless i tell you, O'George. I simply observed how badly both men were affected in the aftermath. I'm no apologist for either one.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 09:51 pm
Barbara Tuchmann did a fascinating book on this topic, as well, The March of Folly. After a few examples to set the tone, she examines the Renaissance papacy cursorily, and then the ministries of George III during our Revolution, and LBJ/MacNamara during Vietnam. Quite an entertaining read.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 10:12 pm
President Kennedy launched the growing increase in the number of US military personnel in Vietnam, breaking the ceiling of the Geneva Accords in 1954. Captain Herrick reported falsely/erroneously the attack of his flotilla in the Tonkin Gulf based on his radar/sonar man to the Department of Defense in Washington of "many reported contacts and torpedoes fired appear doubtful based on freak weather effects..." That report was misused by the president in his meeting with the National Security Council to inform them of the planned actions. Admiral Sharp informed McNamara that the Ticonderoga had launched its planes on August 4, and the president immediately went on tv to report it. They informed the American people that the North Vietnamese had attacked US warships on "routine patrol in international waters;" but in fact was naked unprovoked aggression. That's how the war started in Vietnam.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 10:24 pm
How is hypocrisy spelled?

From BBC:

US accused of 'terror hypocrisy'

Luis Posada Carriles poses a problem for the US government
Venezuela has said the US will be guilty of double standards on terrorism if it does not extradite a Cuban exile wanted over the bombing of a plane.
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said the man, Luis Posada Carriles, was "a self-confessed terrorist".

He said the US had no choice but to send him back to Venezuela, where he escaped from jail two decades ago.

Venezuela wants the man to stand trial over the bombing of the Cuban plane in 1976 that killed 76 people.

We demand the US government stop its hypocrisy and its two-faced attitude and send this terrorist, this bandit to Venezuela

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez

Mr Posada Carriles - who was born in Cuba but now holds Venezuelan nationality - has denied involvement in the attack on the Cuban airline passenger plane on a flight from Caracas to Havana.

The 77-year-old former CIA collaborator was charged on Thursday with illegal entry into the US - weeks after he smuggled himself into the country.

Mr Posada Carriles will be held in custody until an immigration court hearing on 13 June, US immigration officials said.

His lawyer said he had been given the right to live permanently in the US more than 40 years ago.

Remember Bushie saying "you're with us or you're with the terrorists." Wonder who he was talking about?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 10:34 pm
More of the Iraq success.

From Yahoo News:

"End of the Line for Families of Baghdad's Missing: The City Morgue


By SABRINA TAVERNISE
Published: May 20, 2005
BAGHDAD, Iraq, May 19 - A small window in the city morgue is the last hope for people looking for their dead. Holding photographs of the missing, they peer through it to a computer screen where a worker flashes pictures of all the bodies no one has claimed. In Baghdad these days it can be a lengthy process.

Christoph Bangert/Polaris, for The New York Times
Unclaimed bodies collect at a rate of about 70 a month in Baghdad."





Christoph Bangert/Polaris, for The New York Times
Ahmed Ali displayed photos of unclaimed bodies on his computer screen at the Baghdad city morgue as Asya Khaadi looked for her missing son.
As the pace and intensity of the violence here increases, it is growing ever more difficult to match the missing with the dead. Car bombs explode, creating circles of chaos and mutilated bodies that often take days to sort out. Kidnappings punch holes in families for months.

Bodies, old and new, turn up daily. On Sunday alone, the authorities in Baghdad and three other cities found 46. Some of those found that day were buried in a Baghdad garbage dump. Others were discovered on a poultry farm south of here. Their tied hands and broken bodies are their most distinguishing features.

So people go to the window for answers.

"Every day people come to me," said Ahmed Ali, an Interior Ministry worker who displays the photographs. "I listen to their stories. People are in pain. They say: 'We know he's dead. We just want to bury him.' "

Bodies have surfaced almost without stop since the American invasion two years ago. First came the exhumation of mass graves from the time of Saddam Hussein. Those killings were often carried out in secret, and relatives were eager to finally find the bodies and some peace.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 11:12 pm
We have success in Afghanistan too!

From the NYT:

"In U.S. Report, Brutal Details of 2 Afghan Inmates' Deaths

By TIM GOLDEN
Published: May 20, 2005
Even as the young Afghan man was dying before them, his American jailers continued to torment him.

The prisoner, a slight, 22-year-old taxi driver known only as Dilawar, was hauled from his cell at the detention center in Bagram, Afghanistan, at around 2 a.m. to answer questions about a rocket attack on an American base. When he arrived in the interrogation room, an interpreter who was present said, his legs were bouncing uncontrollably in the plastic chair and his hands were numb. He had been chained by the wrists to the top of his cell for much of the previous four days."
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 11:50 pm
Setanta wrote:
It is an absurdity to think that anyone in the Reagan administration ever for a moment considered opposing Russian troops on the ground with American troops on the ground. In the days of the nuclear Mexican stand-off, such events were just not going to occur--too much at stake in situations too likely to escalate out of control before authority could respond.

Walter has one clue, and several people have provided the other clue. The operatives of Central Intelligence who were on the ground, passing out the crisp, new hundred dollar bills really screwed this one up, but in their defense i would point out that from their point of view, one towel-headed sonuvabitch is about the same as another, and little different from a Noriega or a Pinochet--it was just business as usual. Central Intelligence badly dropped the ball. Handing money over to Pakistani security services without oversight was incredibly stupid, and evidence of an overweening arrogance on the part of operatives of Central Intelligence. I strongly suspect that bin Laden became the particular beneficiary of our covert largesse because he was Saudi (although the bin Laden clan are originally Yemeni), and Pappy Bush had extensive contacts in Saudia Arabia.

What is coming home to roost for us now is the result of a continuation of operational method which American administrations, Republican and Democrat, have followed since the end of the Second World War. Whether it was Kennedy complicit in the assassination of Diem in order to erect a puppet regime, or Rummy with his best ****-eatin' grin shaking Hussein's hand, the MO has been the same for fifty years. But as the street wisdom observes, what comes around goes around. We have gotten bit in the ass, and bit hard, because we have treated foreign states and the peoples of those states cavalierly and with arrogant contempt for more than fifty years.

What dismays me the most is the rah-rah rhetoric of a phoney patriotism, advanced to suggest that we are and always have been morally superior, and have only wanted the best for the peoples of other nations. Such an attitude is comensurate with the basic good nature and generosity of the American people. It is the worst hypocricy of venal administrations of either description for that last half-century, and the foolish American electorate are now going to be obliged to pay the price . . . for a long time to come.



What vicious vicious lies! It's plain that you hate America! You're, ... you're, ... you're unAmerican is what you are! You're a liberal, an elist, and a liberal to boot and probably a Democrat!
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 04:54 am
The extract Ican posted was from the link ci gave, and it is originally taken from the book Afghanistan, the CIA, Bin Laden, and the Taliban by Phil Gasper.

Thanks ci. its well worth reading and re reading.

another quote, and just to show that I can do it too, all words highlighted (can't stand that Americanism bolded) are by Steve (as 41oo)

"When the Taliban took power, State Department spokesperson Glyn Davies said that he saw "nothing objectionable" in the Taliban's plans to impose strict Islamic law, and Senator Hank Brown, chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on the Near East and South Asia, welcomed the new regime: "The good part of what has happened is that one of the factions at last seems capable of developing a new government in Afghanistan." "The Taliban will probably develop like the Saudis. There will be Aramco [the consortium of oil companies that controlled Saudi oil], pipelines, an emir, no parliament and lots of Sharia law. We can live with that," said another U.S. diplomat in 1997.

The reference to oil and pipelines explains everything. Since the collapse of the USSR at the end of 1991, U.S. oil companies and their friends in the State Department have been salivating at the prospect of gaining access to the huge oil and natural gas reserves in the former Soviet republics bordering the Caspian Sea and in Central Asia."
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 07:07 am
Quote:
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 07:19 am
Good article gel.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 08:09 am
The Princeton professor who just released his book "On Bullshit", or someone in the 60 Minutes piece about it, talks about how easy it is for people to quickly come to believe what they are saying. I said that, says the brain furiously: now to make it true.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 09:39 am
Bush and company are experts at using "a good defense is an offense" to keep people confused. It's been working pretty good thus far; but one can fool some of the people some of the time....
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 10:09 am
The US military has strongly condemned a British tabloid's Friday publication of pictures of a semi-clothed Saddam Hussein that it says were taken "in clear violation of directives and possibly Geneva Convention guidelines for the humane treatment of detained individuals". The cover of The Sun
http://images.thesun.co.uk/picture/0,,2005230534,00.gif
displays a picture of the former president of Iraq wearing only his underwear, while the photos inside the publication (Sun online) reportedly show him washing laundry in his sink.

A statement (text) by Multi-National Force-Iraq went on to say that it was
disappointed at the possibility that someone responsible for the security, welfare, and detention of Saddam would take and provide these photos for public release. We take seriously our responsibility to ensure the safety and security of all detainees. This lapse is being aggressively investigated to determine, if possible, who took the photos, and to ensure existing procedures and directives are complied with to prevent this from happening again.

Article 13 of the 1949 Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisoners of War (link) says "Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated" and protected from "insults and public curiosity"; Article 14 says they are entitled to "respect for their persons and their honour".
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 10:09 am
Quote:
Saddam underwear photo angers US

The US military says it is investigating "aggressively" after a picture appeared in a British paper showing Saddam Hussein half naked.
The Sun newspaper's front page image showed the former Iraqi president in a pair of white underpants.


Other pictures showed Saddam Hussein washing his socks in a bowl, shuffling around and sleeping.

The US said the photos appeared to breach Geneva Convention rules on the humane treatment of prisoners of war.

The conventions say countries must protect prisoners of war in their custody from "public curiosity".

'Destroy the myth'

The Sun cited US military sources saying they handed over the pictures showing Saddam as "an ageing and humble old man" in the hope of dealing a blow to the resistance in Iraq.

"It's important that the people of Iraq see him like that to destroy the myth," the paper's source was quoted as saying.

However, a spokesman for the multinational forces in Baghdad, Lieutenant-Colonel Steven Boylan, insisted "they were not released by the US military. So the claims in the Sun... are not correct".


A statement from the US-led force said it was "disappointed at the possibility that someone responsible for the security, welfare, and detention of Saddam would take and provide these photos for public release".
The statement added: "This lapse is being aggressively investigated to determine, if possible, who took the photos, and to ensure existing procedures and directives are complied with to prevent this from happening again."

Col Boylan said: "As far as any breaches of the Geneva Convention, that's something we are looking into. We did not officially release those photos, and so there's a question on whether it is actually a breach or not."

The Sun refused to say how it got hold of the pictures, or when they were taken, insisting it needed to protect its sources.

It defended its decision to publish them.

"We thought long and hard about publishing, and took the decision that they're such incredible pictures of the world's most brutal dictator... they were a compelling image that any newspaper or broadcaster would publish," the paper's managing editor, Graham Dudman, told the BBC News website.

Pink chair

Saddam Hussein is awaiting trial on numerous charges in Iraq, including murdering rivals, gassing Iraqi Kurds and using violence to suppress uprisings.

It is not clear when he will go on trial.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41168000/jpg/_41168605_saddam203.jpg
The Sun said it "thought long and hard" before publishing

The US said the pictures might be more than a year old.

They show Saddam with a moustache, rather than the beard he sported when he was captured in December 2003, and again when he appeared in court last July.

The Sun said the former Iraqi leader, 68, was allowed black hair dye to disguise his grey hair.

The paper said Saddam Hussein is kept in a 12ft by 9ft (4m x 3m) cell "somewhere near Baghdad", that he has a desk and a pink plastic chair "which he tends to use as a bedside table".

He is watched round the clock through CCTV cameras, even when he goes to the toilet, the paper said.

The source added that Saddam was one of the best behaved prisoners the US had had, it said.
Source
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 10:16 am
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/20/international/asia/20abuse.html?hp&ex=1116648000&en=6cca0512a38427c3&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Quote:
In U.S. Report, Brutal Details of 2 Afghan Inmates' Deaths

Even as the young Afghan man was dying before them, his American jailers continued to torment him.

The prisoner, a slight, 22-year-old taxi driver known only as Dilawar, was hauled from his cell at the detention center in Bagram, Afghanistan, at around 2 a.m. to answer questions about a rocket attack on an American base. When he arrived in the interrogation room, an interpreter who was present said, his legs were bouncing uncontrollably in the plastic chair and his hands were numb. He had been chained by the wrists to the top of his cell for much of the previous four days.

Dilawar was an Afghan farmer and taxi driver who died while in custody of American troops.


Mr. Dilawar asked for a drink of water, and one of the two interrogators, Specialist Joshua R. Claus, 21, picked up a large plastic bottle. But first he punched a hole in the bottom, the interpreter said, so as the prisoner fumbled weakly with the cap, the water poured out over his orange prison scrubs. The soldier then grabbed the bottle back and began squirting the water forcefully into Mr. Dilawar's face.

"Come on, drink!" the interpreter said Specialist Claus had shouted, as the prisoner gagged on the spray. "Drink!"

At the interrogators' behest, a guard tried to force the young man to his knees. But his legs, which had been pummeled by guards for several days, could no longer bend. An interrogator told Mr. Dilawar that he could see a doctor after they finished with him. When he was finally sent back to his cell, though, the guards were instructed only to chain the prisoner back to the ceiling.

"Leave him up," one of the guards quoted Specialist Claus as saying.

Several hours passed before an emergency room doctor finally saw Mr. Dilawar. By then he was dead, his body beginning to stiffen. It would be many months before Army investigators learned a final horrific detail: Most of the interrogators had believed Mr. Dilawar was an innocent man who simply drove his taxi past the American base at the wrong time.

The story of Mr. Dilawar's brutal death at the Bagram Collection Point - and that of another detainee, Habibullah, who died there six days earlier in December 2002 - emerge from a nearly 2,000-page confidential file of the Army's criminal investigation into the case, a copy of which was obtained by The New York Times.

Like a narrative counterpart to the digital images from Abu Ghraib, the Bagram file depicts young, poorly trained soldiers in repeated incidents of abuse. The harsh treatment, which has resulted in criminal charges against seven soldiers, went well beyond the two deaths.

In some instances, testimony shows, it was directed or carried out by interrogators to extract information. In others, it was punishment meted out by military police guards. Sometimes, the torment seems to have been driven by little more than boredom or cruelty, or both.

In sworn statements to Army investigators, soldiers describe one female interrogator with a taste for humiliation stepping on the neck of one prostrate detainee and kicking another in the genitals. They tell of a shackled prisoner being forced to roll back and forth on the floor of a cell, kissing the boots of his two interrogators as he went. Yet another prisoner is made to pick plastic bottle caps out of a drum mixed with excrement and water as part of a strategy to soften him up for questioning.

The Times obtained a copy of the file from a person involved in the investigation who was critical of the methods used at Bagram and the military's response to the deaths.

Although incidents of prisoner abuse at Bagram in 2002, including some details of the two men's deaths, have been previously reported, American officials have characterized them as isolated problems that were thoroughly investigated. And many of the officers and soldiers interviewed in the Dilawar investigation said the large majority of detainees at Bagram were compliant and reasonably well treated.

"What we have learned through the course of all these investigations is that there were people who clearly violated anyone's standard for humane treatment," said the Pentagon's chief spokesman, Larry Di Rita. "We're finding some cases that were not close calls."


This is the absolute opposite of good news. I, AGAIN, am ashamed of my own country's actions!

GRYGYGYGFRGGRR

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2005 10:20 am
Cyclo, I've already posted that article on the previous page, but yours shows the "whole." Wink
0 Replies
 
 

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