Really Set? all this time I thought the Bush Klan was always from tejas and were old tyme ranchers. Damn.
Prescott got outta town as soon as he could, as i understand it. Samuel Prescott stayed around to become President of Buckeye Steel, which still exists, and is economically healthy. I could not say if the Bush clan still owns any part of Buckeye Steel.
I believe Prescott was anxious to set himself up on the east coast, so as shed the nouveau riche image which haunted the clan in Ohio--a snotty, snobby society crowd if ever there were one. There, of course, he could send young George off to private schools, and buy a summer house in Maine. Life is simply not so rewarding in central Ohio, one assumes.
dyslexia wrote:Lash wrote:During the Cold War, every skirmish the Soviets fought, ultimately required our attention.
It was in the best interests of the US to counterbalance Soviet gains.
Well, yeppers for sure, with Vietnam and Grenda being shinning examples.
I didn't support very poorly formulated attention...but even you must agree we couldn't allow them to encroach into our backyard?
They were not very good at staying in their own neighborhood--or do you think what they did, and where they did it was none of our business?
Really. What do you think?
Setanta wrote:Which is not at all, of course, the same as suggesting that sending money to Afghan mujahadin saved US service people.
Some, thinking ahead, would say it is.
We "created" the Vietnam war. There was no encroachment by the North Vietnamese nor any attacks on our ships.
A correction is in order: Buckeye Steel filed for bankruptcy in 2002. That was more than a few years after i moved out of town, though, so i plead a localized ignorance. Too bad they couldn't have hung in long enough to have attempted to benefit from Samuel's greatgrandson's tarriff on foreign steel.
Some, thinking in fantasy land, might suggest that we would someday have become involved in Afghanistan in the Soviet War--fortunately for US service people, none of those were members of the Reagan administration.
Dys: George Herbert Walker Bush was born in Milton, Massachusetts in 1924, and later attended Andover Academy.
Yes, I know the history of the Vietnam war.
There was a hardy contingent then, and now--even though in retrospect, the thing was a disaster on several levels-- who believed Soviet sponsership of the North Vietnamese required US intervention on the opposing side--or the peninsula would be lost to the Soviets---and another base to launch additional Soviet frontiers would be established.
Some considered it to be a case of National Security.
Setanta wrote:Dys: George Herbert Walker Bush was born in Milton, Massachusetts in 1924, and later attended Andover Academy.
So what you are saying is that "the ranch" is just a hollywood movie set?
Some, thinking in fantasy land, might suggest that we would someday have become involved in Afghanistan in the Soviet War--fortunately for US service people, none of those were members of the Reagan administration.
#1---Setanta's unprovoked snot rocket--proving without a doubt and for all to see that he initiates snottiness. When it is returned, he acts all indignant and surprised, and pretends to lecture those who defend themselves from his rudeness.
#2---Reagan was wildly anti-Communist, and would have found a way to respond to the Soviet's aggression. Helping those who were fighting the aggression for their own freedom seemed to most people to be a relatively risk-free method, not to mention the right thing to do. Hindsight is all that.
#3---See if you can discuss an issue without attacking the poster. I've never seen you do it. I don't think you can.
I'm soooo dysillusioned! anyway this reminds of my habit of using the seque as a technique for sarcasm, so the summer of the Bush 43 first year first term he came to colorado during his vacation from the stress of Crawford and he wanted a photo-op during his visit so he went "into the woods" with some forrest service workers to get his picture taken as a "real guy" and was trying to use a chain saw but the crew had to stop him because he was holding it backwards and about to cut off his leg. The national media was there taking his pic but the only reporter that mentioned his particular skills with the chain saw was a local reporter to just happened on the scene. Does anyone remember daddy Bush when he needed to make a speech on the campaign trail but needed a backdrop so he flew himself and the main media types to the south rim of the Grand Canyon so he would get his picture taken as a "real" american visitng "real" america. Well then there was also Bill Clinto when he came to New Mexico (Gallup-the heart of the Navaho nation) and he said he wanted everyone on the res to have access to the internet and someone on the stage said to him, they needed electricity before they needed the internet.
I think it accurate.
However, I cannot prove that! :wink:
FOR EXAMPLE (boldface emphasis added by ican)
Quote:On July 3,1979, President Carter signed a directive ordering secret aid and covert support for the mujahideen opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul, Afghanistan. In December of 1979, the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, after which the CIA publicly aided the mujahedeen. The objective was to trap the Soviets in a long and costly war designed to drain their resources, much as the war in Vietnam had done to the United States.
The mujahedeen consisted of at least seven major factions, which fought amongst themselves for control over territory and the opium trade. The U.S., in order to covertly combat the Soviet Union, chose to give aid to the most extreme groups. When Ronald Reagan became president in 1981, he praised the mujahedeen as “freedom fighters” and increased aid to the Afghan warlords. The U.S. worked closely with Pakistan in providing this aid to the mujahedeen.
Good work, Ican, i'm proud of you. I appreciate that you did the homework without feeling the need to lard it over with partisan rhetoric--you should save that, of course, for a separate post.
dys
Joan Didion relates a case she witnessed where Bush was photographed apparently looking out over a dangerous desert where terrorists surely lurked close at hand with evil intent. But he was looking into Israel.
It is an absurdity to think that anyone in the Reagan administration ever for a moment considered opposing Russian troops on the ground with American troops on the ground. In the days of the nuclear Mexican stand-off, such events were just not going to occur--too much at stake in situations too likely to escalate out of control before authority could respond.
Ican has demonstrated, although without naming or linking his source, that Carter began a policy which Reagan continued. I think most here are in agreement that it was the correct policy. I don't doubt that Ican's information is correct, and so haven't taken him to task for the sloppy job of presenting it as a statement from authority without attribution. So this leads us to the question of how it came about that we have created the monster whom we now face.
Walter has one clue, and several people have provided the other clue. The operatives of Central Intelligence who were on the ground, passing out the crisp, new hundred dollar bills really screwed this one up, but in their defense i would point out that from their point of view, one towel-headed sonuvabitch is about the same as another, and little different from a Noriega or a Pinochet--it was just business as usual. Central Intelligence badly dropped the ball. Handing money over to Pakistani security services without oversight was incredibly stupid, and evidence of an overweening arrogance on the part of operatives of Central Intelligence. I strongly suspect that bin Laden became the particular beneficiary of our covert largesse because he was Saudi (although the bin Laden clan are originally Yemeni), and Pappy Bush had extensive contacts in Saudia Arabia.
What is coming home to roost for us now is the result of a continuation of operational method which American administrations, Republican and Democrat, have followed since the end of the Second World War. Whether it was Kennedy complicit in the assassination of Diem in order to erect a puppet regime, or Rummy with his best ****-eatin' grin shaking Hussein's hand, the MO has been the same for fifty years. But as the street wisdom observes, what comes around goes around. We have gotten bit in the ass, and bit hard, because we have treated foreign states and the peoples of those states cavalierly and with arrogant contempt for more than fifty years.
What dismays me the most is the rah-rah rhetoric of a phoney patriotism, advanced to suggest that we are and always have been morally superior, and have only wanted the best for the peoples of other nations. Such an attitude is comensurate with the basic good nature and generosity of the American people. It is the worst hypocricy of venal administrations of either description for that last half-century, and the foolish American electorate are now going to be obliged to pay the price . . . for a long time to come.
Set, You thesis is correct: our government has gotton us into more unprovoked wars than Americans realize. Even the Vietnam war was a made up war with claims that the North Vietnamese attacked our boats in international waters. None of that was true. Bush got us into the Iraq war on false pretenses too, and the American People bought it hook, line and sinker. Our soldiers pay for the politics of the few and stupid decisions; wars never solve anything and it's always morally wrong. There's a huge gulf between patriotism, politics, and wars. Nobody seems to understand the difference.
You know, C.I., my brother was on duty on Yankee Station in the Gulf of Tonkin then. His anectdotal report was that C. Turner Joy and Maddox did spot some motor powered sampans, but that it was not known if they were armed, and the only consideration was that they were likely spying on the fleet, so they decided to run them off. It was escalated in Washington, and a false report arose from somewhere that American vessels were fired upon. My brother stated that no one there made such a report, because they were not fired upon, and no one there had a stake in making such a false report. I believe that officers of high rank and responsibility there also make essentially the same statement.
I believe that it ate out Johnson's heart. I think he eventually realized the horror of it all, and how unnecessary it all had been. Certainly Robert MacNamara has been haunted by it, as his recent revelations show. The crucial issue for us, though, is whether we are going to learn from it. As far as Central Intelligence is concerned, the Bay of Pigs fiasco should have been a wake-up call to the executive branch. But it seems, especially in light of operations in Pakistan and Afghanistan in the 1980's, that nothing was learned.
Let's hope the American people are learning something now.
Quote, "Let's hope the American people are learning something now." I don't have much hope of that happening. Americans are too lazy and busy with their own lives, and what's happening in Iraq and Afghanistan is thousands of miles away that doesn't affect us. Reading or hearing that "an American soldier got killed today" doesn't have any impact; it's somebody else's parent or child.
Yer just tryin' to cheer me up, right C.I.?
