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National ID Cards Are Coming - Smile!

 
 
CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 02:02 pm
7 million people find it worthwhile to risk their lives and families.
That pretty much tells me that the problem does not lie with them.

If we throw all 7 million of them in jail, I'm pretty sure another 7 million
will replace them the very next day. Ad infinitum.

RealID's and privacy invasion and the suspension of law (a law-less zone!?)
will neither stop our illegal businesses from hiring, nor help Mexico improve their economy and jobs.

Just as the War on Drugs has so successfully forced drugs to be unavailable,
if we take all the illegals away, would people really stop using them?



Why not identify the factors and forces in our environment that
continually creates the situation,
and stop blaming the grass for growing?
Who cares if the grass is guilty, evil, justified or not? Are we going to
spend our whole lives blaming it, or learning how it works?
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 02:09 pm
Au, yes... as far as I am concerned different laws have different weights and friendship has great value.

I will do everything possible to protect my friends whose only crime is crossing a border... especially when they are contributing to society and are an asset to my community.

You keep acting like all "crimes" are equal. Are you really saying speedingand crossing a border are no different than than murder and terrorism?

There is a large class of crimes that I don't consider very seriously. I would have been happy to harbor runaway slaves. I would not mind associating or even protecting homosexuals. I am certainly willing to befriend and protect undocumented immigrants.

I make a big difference between that and crimes like muder or even theft.

I am sure you would make the same distinction. This "illegal is illegal" is illogical and I suspect it is just a smokescreen for something much deeper.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 02:11 pm
Codeborg
Those seven million [the number is 11 million] would not be replaced if the government did it's job at the borders.
The citizen militia is presently proving it can if the will is there it can be done.

Brown
Those people who come here to provide a better life for their families provide the Mexican economy with it's biggest cash crop.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 02:21 pm
Brown.

Who may I ask are you to decide which laws are to be obeyed and which to be ignored.

I guess it is time to finish this circle jerk.
0 Replies
 
CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 02:27 pm
CodeBorg wrote:
Why not identify the factors and forces in our environment that
continually creates the situation, ... ?


Why not?

How long should we be diligent at the borders?

How long should we sustain a massive effort
just to suppress the symptoms while ignoring the cause?
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 03:05 pm
au1929 wrote:
Brown.

Who may I ask are you to decide which laws are to be obeyed and which to be ignored.


You decide for yourself based on your values. I decide for myself based on my values. That's the American way.

Just don't decieve yourself that your position has anything to do with "law and order". My point is that there are laws that you don't follow or support.

But my point is this. The immigration policy you support is cruel, harsh and vindictive. My values of friendship, compassion and decency in my mind trump your desire for tribalism.

Of course we will fight this battle politically, but I think after this time of republican domination, decency will return.

But if being decent and loyal to people I care about means breaking the law... so be it. Weird rednecks hunting brown skinned immigrants in the desert certainly wont change my mind a bit.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 03:22 pm
Welcome to A2K, brutalnaivety. Thank you for posting.

I don't really have a stand on illegal immigrants. On the one hand, I don't want to double what I pay for strawberries and other goods, and on the other I would like them to be treated fairly by employers, and on my third hand, I'd like to have the jobs available for citizens at a fair wage.

Tough call.

But I do know that I don't need a national ID card with all my information (including picture) in a national database for the government. Doing that with citizens has nothing to do with illegal aliens or terrorists.
0 Replies
 
Trupolitik
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 11:19 pm
I never understood why the Government should not be allowed to know who is within its jurisdiction?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 08:18 am
Its really simple.
Illegal aliens in this country should ALL be rounded up and deported,no matter what country they are from.
If you have a student visa and have overstayed it,then you are an illegal also.
Next,the US born children of illegals should NOT br granted US citizenship,and they should be deported.
Women that come across just to have the baby should be immediately deported,within 24 hours of the baby being born.

Employers that hire illegals should face either prison time,or a fine of $1,000,000 per illegal they hire.

Contrary to our more liberal friends opinions,it IS a national security issue that the borders be locked.
If an illegal can sneak across to work,how hard would it be for a terrorist,or anyone else that wishes the US ill to sneak across?

According to the El Paso Times,we have already had Mexican troops cross the border and shoot at Border Patrol officers.
That is whats called an invasion.

Here is a link to several articles that document that actually happened...
http://tinyurl.com/9fh6y

So,we also know that in 1997 congress authorized Bill Clinton to send up to 10000 troops to help patrol the border,because even then it was a major problem.
The problem has only gotten worse.
In 2004 the house again authorized troops...
http://www.drugsense.org/dsw/2004/ds04.n350.html#art2

"The House approved a defense authorization bill that includes an amendment that would let American soldiers join U.S. Border Patrol agents in guarding the borders with Canada and Mexico.


The amendment, championed by Rep. Virgil Goode, R-Va., passed the House late Wednesday 231-191. It stands little chance of surviving because it was not part of the Senate's defense authorization bill.

The bill is exactly what Glenn Spencer wants to hear. He is president of the American Border Patrol, a Sierra Vista civilian group that films illegal immigration and documents the Border Patrol's response to reports of it.


"The will of the American people is beginning to express itself in the Congress," Spencer told the Tucson Citizen yesterday. "We have to stop this massive invasion of America."


Spencer said his group has 100,000 signed petitions in support of putting troops on the border, and he plans to turn them over to the federal government as a sign of support for the measure.

[snip]


Pubdate: Fri May 21 2004
Source: Tucson Citizen (AZ)
Copyright: 2004 Tucson Citizen
Website: http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/461
Authors: Sergio Bustos and Luke Turf
Continues: http://drugpolicycentral.com/bot/article/tucsoncitizen7645.htm"

Its time we stationed troops at the border and closed it for good.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 08:26 am
Trupolitik wrote:
I never understood why the Government should not be allowed to know who is within its jurisdiction?


They want to know our consumer habits, sexual preferences, religious beliefs, political beliefs, health pre dispositions, they want to know everything except (maybe) how many hairs we have on our asses. Now you tell me why they should know that.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 08:49 am
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
Trupolitik wrote:
I never understood why the Government should not be allowed to know who is within its jurisdiction?


They want to know our consumer habits, sexual preferences, religious beliefs, political beliefs, health pre dispositions, they want to know everything except (maybe) how many hairs we have on our asses. Now you tell me why they should know that.


Show me where they have demanded to know everything on your list?
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 09:04 am
Oh mysteryman...<sigh>
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 09:09 am
According to an article in the news this morning there are an estimated 650,000 undocumented aliens in NY. Who manage to hold down a job with false papers or in an underground economy. They are neither picking strawberries or lettuce. Contrary to what their champions contend they are not holding down jobs that American citizens will not take.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 12:41 pm
au1929 wrote:
Contrary to what their champions contend they are not holding down jobs that American citizens will not take.


Here in AZ, even if they are picking oranges or lemons there are still many unemployed American Citizens who would do this job at minimum wage. But like I said before, either the job doesn't pay minimum wage (illegal) or Americans never know that the farmer is looking for work because it's never advertised.
0 Replies
 
Trupolitik
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 01:14 pm
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
Trupolitik wrote:
I never understood why the Government should not be allowed to know who is within its jurisdiction?


They want to know our consumer habits, sexual preferences, religious beliefs, political beliefs, health pre dispositions, they want to know everything except (maybe) how many hairs we have on our asses. Now you tell me why they should know that.


So the problem is the combining of databases not the National ID, no? Is it impossible to have a National ID, but laws protecting its use?
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 01:17 pm
Trupolitik wrote:
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
Trupolitik wrote:
I never understood why the Government should not be allowed to know who is within its jurisdiction?


They want to know our consumer habits, sexual preferences, religious beliefs, political beliefs, health pre dispositions, they want to know everything except (maybe) how many hairs we have on our asses. Now you tell me why they should know that.


So the problem is the combining of databases not the National ID, no? Is it impossible to have a National ID, but laws protecting its use?


The problem lies in the fact that the current repubs and bush rubberstamper have piggy backed, purposefully, all those other things, and way worse onto the National ID bill. This bill, like most of the the bush teams doings, is a wolf in sheeps clothing.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 01:23 pm
Considering the information databases that have been "lost" just in the last few months, I would have to say NO. It's not possible.

They can know all they want about illegals, visiting students, etc, but anyone that is a citizen, pays their taxes, registers their vehicle, etc shouldn't be subject to more government intrusion. I can't imagine why the government would need my driving record.

It's the little by little intrusions that add up. And, this one wouldn't do anything to stop terrorists.

We've completely ignored that this is being added on to a completely unrelated emergency bill and that Dems are being shut out from the discussion. Doesn't that make you wonder why?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 01:31 pm
Quote:
So the problem is the combining of databases not the National ID, no? Is it impossible to have a National ID, but laws protecting its use?


The problem is both the combining AND the national ID.

The National ID doesn't serve any purpose whatsoever, except to restrict the rights of Americans to travel freely. There are a lot of ways in which it could be used to hassle/harass/intimidate the populace, and few ways in which it will protect anyone.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 01:39 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
So the problem is the combining of databases not the National ID, no? Is it impossible to have a National ID, but laws protecting its use?


The problem is both the combining AND the national ID.

The National ID doesn't serve any purpose whatsoever, except to restrict the rights of Americans to travel freely. There are a lot of ways in which it could be used to hassle/harass/intimidate the populace, and few ways in which it will protect anyone.

Cycloptichorn


OK,I'll bite.
How could it be used to restrict your freedom of movement in this country?

Give us some REASONABLE examples of how it could be used to "hassle/harass/intimidate the populace".
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 09:32 am
I would be interested in seeing examples of this as well. Your driver's license already acts as a form of National ID, as it is a government issued ID confirmed through your birth certificate (at least in NY).

How would a national ID be any different and how could it possibly be used against you?
0 Replies
 
 

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