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National ID Cards Are Coming - Smile!

 
 
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 07:17 am
Quote:
BACKROOM NEGOTIATIONS
Dems locked out of debate on sweeping and controversial REAL ID Act
By Larisa Alexandrovna | RAW STORY

The controversial and little-known REAL ID Act, now in conference and slated to be passed this week, is being decided without Senate Democrats in a series of secret GOP negotiations, RAW STORY has learned.
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The controversial legislation, which supporters say is needed to protect the nation from illegal immigrants, may be be passed in conference as early as Friday. Both chambers of Congress have already passed their versions of the bill; the Senate version does not contain REAL ID but it is expected to be added during negotiations. Senate Democrats say they are being kept out of discussions in much the same way that the House Democrats were barred from negotiations in late 2004.

Late last year, the Republican House leadership snubbed the White House by not allowing the Intelligence Reform Bill to go to a floor vote. The House version of REAL ID (HR 418), championed by House Judiciary Committee Chairman F. James Sensenbrenner (R-WI), was to be attached to the Intel bill.

As RAW STORY reported in February, some members of the Republican caucus were split on many of 418's controversial provisions. In an effort to soothe Republican dissent, Sensenbrenner held a series of secretive closed door meetings, along with a leading conservative Republican member with ties to Jerry Falwell and James Dobson, in order to convince the members of his delegation to support the bill by suggesting that the far Christian right would "rain down fire and brimstone."

Sensenbrenner is said to have cut a deal; the bill would be attached as a rider to another bill in 2005. He then pulled it from the Intel bill, which then passed late last year.

REAL ID was then attached to the Iraq and Afghan military appropriations bill, which also includes money for tsunami aid. The Senate version of the appropriations bill did not include REAL ID, but Republicans are re-adding it in conference.

Many see use of the must-pass appropriations bill as a carrier for REAL ID to be a manipulation of the legislative process to pass a measure that wouldn't be approved on its merits alone.

"An emergency appropriations bill to fund troops in the field and to aid victims of a major natural disaster should not be loaded up with a series of provisions that will lead to the creation of a national identification card," ACLU attorney Tim Sparapani said.

Others, including the Senate Democratic leadership, take issue with the Republicans' methodology, saying they believe it is part of an increasingly alarming pattern of single party rule:

"Democrats have been completely shut out of the backroom negotiations
that I understand have taken place this week about the REAL ID Act," Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) said.



READ THE REST!!!


While Democrats being kept out of the negotiations is story enough, the fact that this isn't even being presented in the media is alarming. It will be done before the people know about it.

Also, note how Rumsfeld came out two days ago saying the military is out of money and the appropriations bill needs to be done immediately. That's the bill this is being attached to.

So, are you for or against a national ID?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 4,938 • Replies: 101
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 07:20 am
There is not a lot of difference between national id cards and the combined driver license and sicial security number, is there.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 08:05 am
Okay, maybe I'm being alarmist.

But, with the REAL-ID, the government decides if you get one or not. We already know how well they've done with allowing non terrorist people to fly or attend tax payer events, not to mention that ll of the 9/11 terrorists were here with government approval.

They are also including rights to take your property without compensation, ignore environmental standaards and not have to be responsible for any toxins / toxic clean-up related to building border barriers.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that all these years of dealing with two Germany's, the Great wall of China, and their champion Reagans "Mr. Gorbechev, tear down that wall" the Republicans are now proposing WE build one?

And, it's being presented as necessary to protect our country from terrorists. I thought things were already going so well on that front. Haven't we heard that because of Bush, we haven't had any attacks on our homeland since 9/11? Haven't we heard that terrorism is on the decline? (Ignore that recent report that says it's increased significantly - that's just 'cause they changed around some of the ways they count)

So, how will a wall and national id make us safer?
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 08:17 am
Well, the part about the government deciding who gets one is an angle I failed to consider.
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 08:26 am
I think this is serious but not yet critical. The idea has been around since the 50's and this is not the first time it has gotten into legislation. The republicans are feeling enough heat from other controversial issues, Social Security, the filibuster, Delay's ethics, that I suspect this will be stripped out in committee. What is worrisome is the source. Traditionally conservative Republicans were the most adamant opposers of a national ID.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 08:32 am
I worry about the source, too.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 09:23 am
The underhanded way the majority party in congress operates is appalling. However, regarding a national ID card IMO it is long overdue.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 10:22 am
Click for the text of the Real ID bill

From my quick scan of the text, it is mostly forcing the states to have a consistant standard for drivers licenses and then insisting that states follow this standard if their licenses are to be valid for federal agencies.

The main thrust is that undocumented residents would not be able to get a license. There are also provision for how much information is required to get a lisence and how this informaion is stored.

This is dumb because it puts the instinct of the right to clamp down on immigrants (which as they said is most definately not racist) over national security.

Think about it.

There is a big difference between families who are here working hard to provide a better life for their children, and terrorists who want to do us harm. These families are very happy to participate in the American life, and economy and contribute to our communities.

The terrorists, of course, are interested in remaining hidden. They don't want to get any kind of lisence, or have any kind of trail.

What this mean-spirited idiocy does is forces the people who don't want to do us harm to live just like the people who want to do us harm. Now instead of a small number of people staying under the radar to harm us, you have a large number of people being forced to stay under the radar.

An environment of anger, distrust and hatred that creates a large subclass forced to the fringes of our society makes a very nice environment for terrorists.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 10:27 am
ebrown_p
I am assuming the large subclass you speak of are here illegally.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 10:34 am
Stop this hypocritical BS.

Tell me you have never broken the law. Tell me you wouldn't break the law if it would provide a better life for your family. Americans have always broken laws when they feel they are justified. Do you even drive the speed limit?

What pisses me off is the hypocritical inability to differentiate between the illegal activity of crossing a border to worki hard tand provide a better future for your family...and terrorism.

They are not at all the same.

Treating hardworking immigrant families like terrorists becuase they commited the horrible crime of crossing a border is as stupid as it is spiteful.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 10:41 am
ebrown_p wrote:
Stop this hypocritical BS.

Tell me you have never broken the law. Tell me you wouldn't break the law if it would provide a better life for your family. Americans have always broken laws when they feel they are justified. Do you even drive the speed limit?

What pisses me off is the hypocritical inability to differentiate between the illegal activity of crossing a border to worki hard tand provide a better future for your family...and terrorism.

They are not at all the same.

Treating hardworking immigrant families like terrorists becuase they commited the horrible crime of crossing a border is as stupid as it is spiteful.



You live in Boston, what the hell do you know about illegal immigration.

I live in Phoenix, come visit here to see what illegal immigration has done to this state, or Southern California, or New Mexico, or Texas. In addition to costing my state millions of dollars of MY money, they also take jobs from US citizens.
0 Replies
 
CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 10:42 am
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/10/national/main543313.shtml
Quote:
In the latest count, based on the 2000 Census and INS statistics, the Immigration and Naturalization Service reported that roughly 7 million immigrants, mostly Mexicans, were living illegally in the United States as of January 2000. ... "If you've got an economy that is sucking that many workers into it and no reasonably legal means to bring them in, then it's broken," Gay said.


If you can hire somebody better, then please do.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 10:45 am
Brown
BS. Illegal is illegal. That means they have no legal right to be in this country. Why the hell do we bother making immigration laws if there is no need to obey them. Is it your belief that people from any point on the globe can come here and thumb their nose at our laws.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 10:51 am
Codeborg wrote


Quote:
If you can hire somebody better, then please do.

You mean cheaper don't you? Question
0 Replies
 
CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 10:57 am
Is it legal to hire an illegal?

Is it a citizen or a non-citizen who tends to hire them?

If there are 7-10 million illegals working here, approximately how many illegal NON-aliens must reasonably be hiring them -- and therefore enticing even more of them to risk their lives moving here?

When was the last time you washed 20 toilets?

"Use 'em then accuse 'em" seems to be the American way.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 11:00 am
CodeBorg wrote:
Is it legal to hire an illegal?

Is it a citizen or a non-citizen who tends to hire them?

If there are 7-10 million illegals working here, approximately how many illegal NON-aliens must reasonably be hiring them -- and therefore enticing even more of them to risk their lives moving here?

When was the last time you washed 20 toilets?


Give me a break, if the businesses would pay the minimum wage, there would be employees willing to do the job. There are many unemployed CITIZENS in Arizona that would do this for min. wage. They don't offer the job at ANY wage, because the offer it to illegals. Citizens NEVER get the change to apply for this job, because it's not offered.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 11:00 am
maporsche wrote:


You live in Boston, what the hell do you know about illegal immigration.

I live in Phoenix, come visit here to see what illegal immigration has done to this state, or Southern California, or New Mexico, or Texas. In addition to costing my state millions of dollars of MY money, they also take jobs from US citizens.


There is a very large thriving immigrant community in Boston, a significant proportion are undocumented. Many of us citizens find that this community is a great part of our city.

They are an important part of the labor force and the community. I am very proud of our public schools that not only accept all residents without concern about documents, they actively support the entire community. Immigrants here (including undocumented immigrants) are involved and contribute as part of school community.

In my experience, if you treat people with respect as people (regardless of their horrible border crossing crimes) they will contribute and you will end up with a stronger, more diverse community.

I understand there are difficult issues here. But you need to understand that these are people that some of us care about. Attitudes like yours are reactionary and lead to these laws that are nothing less then cruel. They break families, and punish hard work.

If you break a law (and you do break laws) you will be treated with respect and understanding, yet they commit this terrible crime of wanting to work hard and be a part of your community, and they can be treated with incredible harshness.

I am very connected to the immigrant community. I understand these issues more than you could know.
.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 11:03 am
ebrown_p wrote:
maporsche wrote:


You live in Boston, what the hell do you know about illegal immigration.

I live in Phoenix, come visit here to see what illegal immigration has done to this state, or Southern California, or New Mexico, or Texas. In addition to costing my state millions of dollars of MY money, they also take jobs from US citizens.


There is a very large thriving immigrant community in Boston, a significant proportion are undocumented. Many of us citizens find that this community is a great part of our city.

They are an important part of the labor force and the community. I am very proud of our public schools that not only accept all residents without concern about documents, they actively support the entire community. Immigrants here (including undocumented immigrants) are involved and contribute as part of school community.

In my experience, if you treat people with respect as people (regardless of their horrible border crossing crimes) they will contribute and you will end up with a stronger, more diverse community.

I understand there are difficult issues here. But you need to understand that these are people that some of us care about. Attitudes like yours are reactionary and lead to these laws that are nothing less then cruel. They break families, and punish hard work.

If you break a law (and you do break laws) you will be treated with respect and understanding, yet they commit this terrible crime of wanting to work hard and be a part of your community, and they can be treated with incredible harshness.

I am very connected to the immigrant community. I understand these issues more than you could know.
.


So what is wrong with these people trying to come over here LEGALLY?

Are you against LEGAL immigration?
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 11:06 am
ebrown_p wrote:

I understand there are difficult issues here. But you need to understand that these are people that some of us care about. Attitudes like yours are reactionary and lead to these laws that are nothing less then cruel. They break families, and punish hard work.


And they use benefits provided by MY tax dollars, without paying ANY taxes of their own.

Quote:

If you break a law (and you do break laws) you will be treated with respect and understanding, yet they commit this terrible crime of wanting to work hard and be a part of your community, and they can be treated with incredible harshness.


Just to point out that during the minutemen project in AZ there have been no reported cases of illegal immigrants being treated unfairly.

Quote:

I am very connected to the immigrant community. I understand these issues more than you could know.
.


If you are as connected as you say, then you should do your civic duty and report any illegals you meet to your local PD.
0 Replies
 
CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 11:06 am
maporsche wrote:
Give me a break, if the businesses would pay the minimum wage, there would be employees willing to do the job. There are many unemployed CITIZENS in Arizona that would do this for min. wage. They don't offer the job at ANY wage, because the offer it to illegals. Citizens NEVER get the change to apply for this job, because it's not offered.


Exactly my point. And who is it that runs these businesses?
7 million illegals are being paid and supported by SOMEbody.
0 Replies
 
 

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