Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

The problem you have is very simple to explain; you shut off evolution, and continue to believe in a book with so many errors, omissions, and contradictions that a ten year old would be able to identify most problems if told it was a comic book rather than the bible. The fear of retribution by parents and siblings if he/she told the truth keeps most children from speaking out. They learn to live with the same misinformation, because they've become conditioned to live with such lies.

How long is it ci. since you first began trotting out that sort of drivel?

Read the first sentence of Tristram Shandy and see what an unconditioned kid might say.

I wouldn't waste my time reading any one writer or book on "any" controversial subject. ergo, bible.

Hey ci...good to see you also.

Okay…let’s suppose for the sake of this particular part of the discussion that is correct. Where does that lead us?



I am always agnostic, IB. But there are times when I feel I have enough evidence upon which to base what I consider to be a meaningful guess. There are other times when I think a guess is not warranted…that the subject matter being considered is not something I really want to consider.

So, yes, I am agnostic agnostic about Shesha, the serpent upon which Vishnu lies on an ocean of milk from where Brahma, emerging from a lotus flower in Vishnu's navel created the world? (I’m taking your word for all that.) Mostly, my feelings would be that I would not hazard a guess about this because I have not studied the issue enough to make a meaningful guess…and the subject matter is not something I really am interested in considering.

In consideration of your question, however, I will allow that it sounds kinda dubious to me…as does the god and the story of creation described in the Bible.

The fact that those things sound dubious to me, however, does not mean I would reach a conclusion that it is impossible for gods to exist. And if it is possible for gods to exist…and since I can see no probative evidence for or against the existence of gods…the most logical thing I can say (in my opinion) is that I do not know if they exist or not.



Yes, I am. I am always agnostic. But as I have mentioned many times, agnostics can know things (2+2=4 & there is no elephant in my top right desk drawer)...and they can make guesses when they think a guess is appropriate. My guess on the serpent god Shesha, upon which Vishnu lies on an ocean of milk from where Brahma, emerging from a lotus flower in Vishnu's navel created the world…is that it sounds dubious; it sounds contrived and humanly invented. The creation myth (as you call it; and as I have often referred to it as) seems dubious also. My guess is that both are probably creations of humans in an attempt to explain the unknown.

None of that is evidence that gods do not exist, however…and none of that would cause me to suppose that gods are not possible.

So I am back to where I was earlier. I do not know if gods exist; I do not know that gods do not exist; I do not see enough evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction.

You seem to be bringing agnostic and psychotic closer together.

Without clouding this issue any more than necessary, I think I should add the following in order to complete my answer and make it a more proper description of MY position on the issue.

Sometimes it is easier to suggest that when I know something (2+2=4) that I am not being agnostic. In its most fundamental sense, I am still agnostic even when acknowledging that I “know” something or am willing to guess about it. It is entirely possible for an Agnostic, while being agnostic, to “know” something with some degree of certainty…or be willing to guess about something under the conditions I mentioned.

Being agnostic does not always necessitate doubt. It does mean that when doubt exists…the doubt is acknowledged. If I do not know something...it behooves me, as an agnostic, to acknowledge that I do not know it. I can, of course, offer a guess if I deem it appropriate...but as an agnostic, I ought clarify that I am guessing when doing so.

If that is truly what you think, RL, I will try to endure it.

I am just kidding with you. In my opinion you are where you should be.

Agnostic is a state of mind that will likely lead to your definition of atheism if given enough time and understanding to evaluate probabilities. This is something that only you can work out for yourself.
The funny thing is that I was where you are at, less than a year ago.
Questioning everything is a wonderful state of mind, it does certainly lead to more discoveries than not doing so.

Hey Frank--2 what+2 what=4 what?

Numbers or people. Numbers or fingers. 2 what?

Do you think that he might be talking about cells dividing? 2 divided cells+ 2 divided cells = 4 divided cell?

I don't know. 2 galaxies+ 4 galaxies= 6 galaxies maybe. Or 6 galaxies divided by 3 galaxies= 2 galaxies.

What's a cell rl? Do tell.

A narrow confining room

How about 2 women banging you over the head with rolling pins + 2 women banging you over the head with rolling pins= 4 women banging you over the head with rolling pins.

Beth's a big girl.

Whenever any bloke makes disparaging remarks about boozing I always think that they must be henpecked all to **** and not allowed out without supervision.

That would depend if you were at the pub or not because you might consider that to be a foursome after a few drinks.

You don't know what the hell you're talking about. I was in Coconut Grove on the eve of January 2, and joined my friends at Monty's for 3 pain killers and 6 oysters like the rest of my friends. You do know what pain killers are?

And, during our 10-day wine cruise (I just returned on Jan 13), my roommate and I drank vodka martinis, 7-bottles of wine in addition to wines served at our special dinner at the Italian restaurant on board the ship, cocktail party, and wine tasting for our group. We also attended two Captain's cocktail parties. yea, tell me about it.

We also drank beer and some rum drinks at many of our port stops.

I can't do anything like that ci. Never could. My old man was the same.

2 pints a night is my limit. I go to the pub for a walk, to get out of the house, have a change of clothes, socialise with the locals and to admire the barmaids. Oh--and to pay some tax over and above what I need to do.

The government needs money to provide the services it does.

I need a ton of well rotted cow muck for my veggie patch. I just ask around in the pub and within a week a ton of the stuff arrives. Buy the guy a couple of pints. Slate loose on the roof. Just the same. I glazed a 20 x 8 greenhouse with glass a chap in the pub gave me.

And the ladies I have met in pubs!!!.

There's a lot more to pubs than the booze. Pubs are the last bastion of freedom. That's why puritanical, socialist control freaks are trying to close them down.

weve seen many a boat on the Chesapeake or Fundy that was driven by a PUI captain. I hope that the captain of the wine cruise had an alternate "Designated pilot". Theres a lot of mass in a cruise ship.

When I got into my accident this summer, the captain of the sailboat was under the influence of a gin-like substance. He jibed the boat without any warning and (without any good reason) and thats what gave me my injury and later infection.
I told him that Hell would need a ski ramp before I go sailing with him anymore.

I feel the same way about a journey into the future with atheists at the helm.

Not on my own behalf of course. I'm too old for it to matter.