97
   

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2012 07:06 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

I think some of you are so rattled at the thought that God might be female that you shut out the idea that God exists at all to negate the notion.


Actually if it existed in the first place being female would probably put a better aspect to it.

spendius wrote:

I can understand an atheist's contempt for Pascal's Wager but an agnostic is another matter. Refusing a bet to nothing is absurd. Especially when the dividend is infinite bliss.


The only problem with this analogy is that you arn't betting on one horse crossing the finish line. You are betting on a hundred thousand horses and trying to determine out of them, which one will win the race. It isn't a simple choose god (Christianity) and win. How come Zeus doesn't come to the table? Theists just automatically KNOW that zeus doesn't exist but somehow yahweh does? It is absurdity yet also surprises me how people miss this so often when they try to support pascals wager as an argument.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2012 07:35 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
How do you {feel} for evidence? This is new to me.


I think you understand what I said there.

Quote:
You also make a guess, is this a logical way of doing things?


Why not? People make guesses all the time. I certainly do.

Quote:
I would think that logic takes probabilities into account and I see the probabilities to be about the same for a God or a spaghetti monster being they are concepts with absolutely no provable evidence..


Well, if you think the probabilities of gods and spaghetti monsters are the same...what can I say? That is something you have got to live with.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2012 08:07 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I think you understand what I said there.
Yes I do, you are not using logic nor a scientific method.

Quote:
Why not? People make guesses all the time. I certainly do.


Very true but why not at the least make a logical guess?

Quote:


Well, if you think the probabilities of gods and spaghetti monsters are the same...what can I say? That is something you have got to live with.


If you think that the probability For a God is greater than a spaghetti monster what are you using to measure this statistically?


Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2012 08:23 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
If you think that the probability For a God is greater than a spaghetti monster what are you using to measure this statistically?


C'mon, RL! Do you honestly think there are statistics to be measured on this?

I did say "guess" somewhere in my post. Try to understand what I am saying when I use that word.

And I have explained my reasoning for the guesses...a couple of times. I am not going to do it again. It is all there if you truly are trying to understand me...rather than just grasping at straws.

reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2012 08:27 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:

C'mon, RL! Do you honestly think there are statistics to be measured on this?


Is 0 a statistical number that should be used when equating a logical answer?

Quote:
I did say "guess" somewhere in my post. Try to understand what I am saying when I use that word.


I understand that you and I have a limited frame of reference to make hypothesis with but why through out the scientific method or logic when equating Gods but not spaghetti monsters?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2012 08:28 am
@Krumple,
Quote:
It is absurdity yet also surprises me how people miss this so often when they try to support pascals wager as an argument.


My guess is you disagree with me on many things I have written here, but I want to say that I agree with you on this particular point.

Pascal's Wager is absurd from several perspectives. I wrote a lengthy thread about why I think it pap, but cannot seem to find it in my thread cache. (I may have published it while still over in Abuzz.)
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2012 08:29 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
Is 0 a statistical number that should be used when equating a logical answer?


I said it was a guess. Why are you having so much trouble with this?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2012 08:36 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I said it was a guess. Why are you having so much trouble with this?

I do not have any trouble with it. I just do not see why you would find a greater probability in a God than you would a spaghetti monster.

I understand that you and I both have a limited frame of reference to make hypothesis with but why through out the scientific method or logic when equating Gods but not spaghetti monsters?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2012 08:38 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
I understand that you and I have a limited frame of reference to make hypothesis with but why through out the scientific method or logic when equating Gods but not spaghetti monsters?


Sorry, I missed this, RL


I have given my reason for why I see enough evidence upon which to base what I consider a meaningful guess that flying spaghetti monsters and other silly atheistic creations do not exist…and I have also given my reasons for why I do not see enough evidence upon which to make a meaningful guess in either direction on the question of gods. I have done this a couple of times now.

If you think my reasoning is not logical…I can accept that you think it is not logical. I think it is. Not sure what else you expect me to say, RL. I think I am being logical in my explanation; you do not. We disagree.

spendius
 
  2  
Sat 14 Jan, 2012 09:11 am
@Krumple,
Quote:
You are betting on a hundred thousand horses and trying to determine out of them, which one will win the race.


So? It's still a bet to nothing for an agnostic. And refusing one of those is absurd. No matter what the odds. And you get to pick out a nice daughter of the minor gentry for a bride from the parade in church who you can be assured has been properly brought up. The bar stool parade is notorious for traducing a man's substance.

Quote:
How come Zeus doesn't come to the table? Theists just automatically KNOW that zeus doesn't exist but somehow yahweh does?


Pascal's Wager applies for all gods. Obviously. Christian theists, and deists, are happy for anyone to bet on Zeus. Or the Thessalalian Moon Goddess. Or Coatlicue (not recommended). Assuming no unfortunate or disreputable social behaviours are involved.

Or crossing your fingers for that matter. Why not if it's a bet to nothing. If you are agnostic about crossing your fingers to bring luck because you have no evidence that it doesn't work then you might as well cross them when you're in need. Not crossing them when you are undecided is just as difficult as crossing them. Holding the first two fingers of each hand rigidly side by side when in need of luck in order to prove you don't believe in such ridiculous nonsense must be quite difficult in some circumstances. Doubly so for acrosserics. Maybe more than double.

yahwey is our choice because of the unfortunate and disreputable, not to say inefficient, heresy to a materialist, social behaviours which come along with any others.

All of which applies to every good luck charm that ever existed. Even a greeting. How can being wished good luck bring good luck?

And the hope induced might increase your chances.

0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2012 09:44 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Do you honestly think there are statistics to be measured on this?


There's the life expectancy stats. The infant mortality ones too.

Would you expect worship of the FSM to have done that from where they were three thousand years ago.

What you have on your hands Frank is a reductio ad absurdum of as monumental a proportion as any that can be imagined short of the Big Bang. You are reducing a whole culture to a brilliant insight you got into your little noggin as a lad. A not very original brilliant insight I must say.

With a handicap like yours you might be better practising your putting on the carpet.

Quote:
And I have explained my reasoning for the guesses...a couple of times. I am not going to do it again.


Phew!! Let us give thanks to the Lord.


0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2012 09:58 am
@Frank Apisa,
Hi Frank, Long time no see! Glad you're back.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2012 10:01 am
@Krumple,
Which came first, the man or woman? If only one came into existence in the beginning, how was it that it had a penis or vagina? Since man was created in god's image, god must be a ......... homo?
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2012 10:12 am
@cicerone imposter,
The man. The man always comes first.
farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2012 10:56 am
@spendius,
and santa claus comes down a chimney. I find that gross.
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2012 12:25 pm
@farmerman,
You would because you don't understand evolution. Judging by Darwin's strike rate the man came first in his mind.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2012 12:32 pm
@spendius,
That's very funny, spendi. Which came first? The chicken or the egg? Without a hen, ....
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2012 12:48 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Nah--I'm looking at who survives in famines. If the men don't come first nobody survives. As with war also.

You have got confused because we fly in aid for famines and war is now under the Geneva convention. In evolution neither apply.

One minute you are evolutionists and the next compassionate Christians.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2012 01:29 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The logical objection to a historical entelechy story, such as the tree of life, is that to place an order of development in a series of stages is not explaining it. What, when and where says nothing about why, how and whence. Describing NFL rules goes nowhere near explaining NFL.

If a serial explanation is evidenced by a specification of the causal connections in the series then the series is redundant because if we have that specification the series as a whole becomes no more that a list of successive conditions. If we have no knowledge of how or why the successive stages are generated then the series as a whole is inefficient.

It's either redundant or inadequate for people more interested in the why, how and whence than the what, when and where, as most people are. For them, either of those is insufficient for an explanation central to a validating scheme of things which is precisely what evolutionism does.

What you need do is stop people bothering about the why, how and whence, which is possible pharmaceutically or surgically and to a lesser degree in one of fm's proposed retraining centres.

It is possible that obsession with the what, when and where is in the service of drowning out insistent questions about the why, how and whence. A form of escapism.

Darwinism obscures the illogicality by a neat trick. It amalgamates a theory of evolution ( denial of independent origin and immutability of species) with a doctrine concerning how the species emerged (natural selection). The story of the growth and the explanation of it became fused and hid the illogicality of the entelechy alone.

When you know something about logic let us know ci. Just using the word as a self-pinned medal on the chest is insulting our intelligence which I know is a favourite activity of yours.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2012 01:33 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Infrablue...good to see you.

Thank you for your opinions on this, but I suggest that the reason I treat the question of gods differently from the "unicorn, flying spaghetti monster, purple CPA's working on the moons of Saturn, etc)"is that we are ultimately dealing with the answer to the question, "Is there a god or gods involved in the nature of Reality?"

The "unicorn, flying spaghetti monster, purple CPA's, etc" is never truly advanced as a possible explanation for how the Reality came to be (if it did 'come to be')...but is merely a smoke screen offered by atheists to agnostics. I have never seen it ever discussed anywhere else.




But the idea of a god involved in the nature of reality falls into the category of supernatural things and beings such as unicorns and fairies and gods themselves as well. Are you equally agnostic about Shesha, the serpent upon which Vishnu lies on an ocean of milk from where Brahma, emerging from a lotus flower in Vishnu's navel created the world? Are you agnostic about that creation myth as equally as you are agnostic about unicorns and fairies?
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.11 seconds on 01/20/2025 at 06:00:11