Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

You only have the "possibility" that gods exist.

Frank will be appearing in the TIKI room every night this week with shows at 8 and a really big show at midnight .

By the way, JTT...is there anything other than intellectual cowardice stopping you from answering the question I asked over in the thread where you have been mocking Setanta's grammar????

Frank wrote


...except of course his own !

I haven't been mocking his grammar, Frank. I've hardly mentioned him by name at all. I asked a question about a recurring structure. That is what people who are truly interested in a subject do.

Has it occurred to you that your question was one of inanity that added nothing to the actual language issue?

Given your avoidance of the language issues, don't you think it odd that you'd suggest that I was engaging in intellectual cowardice.

Point mine out, Fresco!

Yes you have. And in a very cowardly way.



Yes...a very cowardly move. But whose quotes are used in that thread?




And I asked why you were doing it...what you saw to be unusual about what Setanta was saying...and so far, you have been cowardly avoiding responding to me.



Really! So...you call a grammatic construct to our attention...and I ask you why you did it...what you thought was worth discussing.

And you consider that an inanity????

You are a piece of work, JTT!




Not at all. And...I do not avoid language issues. I discussed language issues with you at length...and all I ever got from you was, "There is no such thing as good English grammar!"

That was the bottom line...that and the idiotic statement that not a single language scholar on the planet thinks that there is such a thing as good or bad English grammar.

If you want to discuss this...take it back to that idiotic thread you started. Let's not interrupt this thread with your inanities.

Frank, we've been chatting since your return to a2k, but if you knew my posting history, you'd realize how remarkably close our stances are. From many of your statements we are practically standng on ech others toes... But perhaps we are looking in different directions. I am not an atheist. I'm not trying to rationalize anything either.

Having a scientific outlook on the world does not make me and atheist by default. I however will not dismiss that any of the four possibilities of god exist.

The current body of evidence sides with a natural universe. I can choose to accept that or not. I accept it.

Frank, you say you don't have any beliefs as if that itself is inherently profound, but I cant see how it is unless you articulate how you do make conclusions. Objectivity is a great goal, but not if you are affraid of where it may take you.

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Before I respond...aren't you supposed to be on the road to the City???

Don't want you to miss the Big Apple.

Gonna get to your post in a second...just thought I'd mention this...because you mentioned you were gonna be in town by this afternoon.

I'm on the bus right now in fact. I'm posting slow because I'm typing on my iPhone.

The big apple
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"cowardly" is what you've attempted in this thread with FM, Frank. Note you still haven't helped him out with your expertise. "cowardly" is what you attempted with me, in this very thread. That, at least warranted a 'thank you', and let me thank you once again. You are a master spell checker.




Not at all, I responded to you at least twice, explaining clearly why I chose not to address your question. Let me quote here some of your scintillating responses:

Frank wrote: "Me don't know...you was the one what brought it to ours attention.

That's why me asked."

Frank wrote: "Are something wrong with that?"

Those were two of your more cogent posts.

Since it hasn't occurred to you, let me make it abundantly clear. Your question was completely inane and again, you can't even comprehend why because you don't have the faintest idea just how little you know.



Once you do realize just how little you know, that you're in water that's much too deep for you, you run off on more inane tangents and grip them with the ferocity of a pit bull.

How many more pages on are we now, and still you leave FM hanging? You never did help h2oman out either and you have the temerity to suggest that you do address language issues. Come on, Frank. You're normally more honest on other issues.

I don't want to misrepresent what I mean here. If you re-read what I wrote...you will see that I was not saying that I do not make guesses or such.

Let me do this again...so that there is no misunderstanding.

When a theists says to me “I believe there is a God” or an atheist says, “I believe there are no gods”--I interpret that to mean: “I blindly guess there is a God” or “I blindly guess there are no gods.”

To me...a “belief” is nothing but a guess (sometimes an estimate, or a supposition, or an evaluation). But in a religious discussion context...a “belief” is damn near always a blind guess.

The use of the word “belief” or “believe” is simply to disguise the fact that it is a blind guess.

I do not do that...so I say that I do not have any beliefs.

That does not mean I do not do some of the things theists and atheists do (that they term “believing” or “beliefs”)...just that I do not disguise the fact that I am guessing.

Example: Theists (lots of them) say: I believe the Bible is the word of GOD...(or, was inspired by GOD). Atheists (lots of them) say: I believe the Bible is a crock of ****...a mythology and superstition.

Okay...now my take on this is: I don't know if the Bible was inspired by a god...and I don't know that it is a mythological bit of superstition...but it is my opinion that the best, most reasonable GUESS that can be made about it is: It is a (rather self-serving) history of the early Hebrew people with an almost absurd mythology intertwined...and with the early Hebrews who wrote it putting their mores and prejudices into the mouth of a god they invented for that particular purpose.

Hope that makes my position clearer.

I am not “afraid” in any way about where any line of speculation will take me...but I WILL NOT fall into the theistic/atheistic trap of pretending blind guesses are anything other than blind guesses.

Theists bother me with that nonsense particularly, because after they call their blind guesses “beliefs”...they expect that their deception requires the rest of us to honor and respect their blind guesses. To which I say...bullshit!

Atheists bother me with that nonsense because of their self-righteousness!





Ugh!

Take this ******* nonsense somewhere else you ******* asshole!

As we say in New Jersey...."I got your TIKI room...swingin!"

That's definitely one of your shorter tangents, Frank. Got a good grip, okay, run with it.

I understand now frank.

I went on a date a few weeks ago, and the girl and I talked about a lot of things. I found that we were pretty much identical in beliefs, ultately I was put off by her methodology. She didn't know anything from first hand experience, yet was very judgemental. Yuck.

From you last post it seems that you only think of atheist in terms of their relevance to theists. It seems to assume too much. Certainly many atheists are atheists because they reject religion, but that isnot always the case.

If somebody looks at the world around them and decides they are an atheist accepting the body of evidence, they are being rational.

I don't agree with the notion that beliefs are guesses. Or for that letter that all guesses are created equal. A scientists guess based on a large body of evidence is of actual value. A wizzards guess on the political trends for unicorns does not

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I've always been inclined towards what you post and Frank going back to Abuzz days with really only minor differences. Some days I think Frank sat on a buzz saw, but that's just his personality and it makes me laugh.

"God" is only a word (you've heard this before) appearing as "god" (lower case to make it not so damningly important), "gawd" if one is being irreverent (like "gawd awful" or something more pungent), something one inadvertently shouts out during sex, and you contrast that with the "natural world." God could just be nature, or it can be plasma, or lumens or whatever. It isn't communicating with me, nor do I fantasize that I can communicate with it. Of course, prayer is practically a synonym of meditating even though it's not listed at Merriam Webster or Thesaurus.com, and is healthy because it is quiet, serious thought with a goal in mind. A humanist might meditate that everyone should lighten up and stop shooting at each other, although that's unlikely to make it happen. Prayer has some less than trivially positive, creepily negative synonyms:

Request for help (oh, I do so want to win the Super Bowl), adoration (of the magic, because you love to live in an illusion), appeal (as in Angelina Jolie or Brad Pitt, depending on your bent), application (for employment at the local dump as that's the only job left), begging (no comment), beseeching (also means chewing gum),imploration (the opposite of exploration), imploring (opposite of exploding), petition (as gathering signatures and money to pass Prop 8), plea (as in stating you are not guilty when you damn well know you are), pleading (same as last), request (for unemployment), rogation (which is originally is a Roman law process), service (I'm not touching that, it's all over the Internet XXX, sometimes in the position), suit (important in Poker), supplication (something Bush never got), worship (as in those who still believe Bush and Nixon are really good people).

I beg your pardon -- I predicted Karl Rove was going to end up with a unicorn horn up his ass. -- Single Z Wizard

BTW, you remind me of my friends at Cal Tech and the now extinct LA Science Fiction Society

Don't ever ever give up hope, LW.

What exactly is “the body of evidence” that points to “there are no gods involved in the Reality of existence?”




Okay...in a religious context...give me a belief that you have that is not a guess. We can discuss it.


I've never said all guesses are equal. Some stink to high heaven. Some only stink a little bit.



If you say so.

But keep in mind that I really confined my “blind guess” remark to “beliefs” in a religious context. If you have a particular item in mind...why not mention it rather than being so general.

In a "one more time" attempt at providing you with a way out of your "there may be gods" conundrum, I offer the fact that youve decided to settle upon evolution (or its partial antithesis ,ID). EVolution, like germ theory, magnetism, gravity, continental drift, can be fully explained "Without the intervention of any god, gods, or Flying Spaghetti Monsters". Evolution can be seen in action today, with oprganisms either adapting or gene drifting their species into new niches or forms. EVIDENCE, proposed by IDers, who have tried to insert their sad belief system into science, have been asserting the need for gods (or an intelligent designer) by virtue of the concepts of Irreducible Complexity or Specified Design. In each case the arguments have been shown to be groundless and without any credibility at all. Consequently, the furor that seems to circle about evolution is merely a sad attempt by the IDers /Creationists to keep their entire self worth from being refuted.

Frank, youve bought into the "slight of hand" attempt by IDers that, evolution Must, because they say so, be directed, when all we have as information says just the opposite. EVOLUTION IS

1 Opportunistic

2 Adaptive

3 Multi solutional . (many more unsuccesful morphological forms have been seen in the fossil record than successful ones , wrt the same geologic era)

4 Mathematically predictable

5 Observable in many present niches

ASImilar to magnetics, where once we considered it magic, we understand fully the components and no gods need inquire. Youre initial statements that my wordlview must be based upon a "proof positive " of the absence of gods is therefore kind of immaterial to science. WHether a god exists or not, it doesnt effect our abilities to use the concepts and precepts of evolution. It only seems important to you.
I will respectfully depart and hopre that your temper doesnt get in the way of your mouth (anymore)