97
   

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
pragmatic
 
  1  
Thu 4 Dec, 2008 01:32 am
@spendius,
That's not a hypothesis, that's a question for a hypothesis. A hypothesis is the question posed as an explaination, a theory is the explaination that proves or disproves the hypothesis or may do both.

As for music in egg-laying battery tests, and in greenhouses to see how plants are affected by what kinds of music, I don't know what it is classified as: either mystical or scientific movement. Rather, it seems more the tests are the means to an end, rather than the end themselves, and that end being whether the impact of music is mystical or scientific.

I don't rule out mystical spirituality - I've heard of miracles happening and I believe such miracles do happen with no scientific explaination. Its EXACTLY because there has no been scientific explaination posed so far that I think there are mystical forces at work - unless and until a theory can be put forward, I won't rule out mystical forces. What I do say however is that the evidence for the theory of evolution seems only to be growing and growing convincing me of the truth of this theory. Gravity is only a theory technically, but do please show me one sane reasonable knowledgable person who still doubts it, or can put forward another reason why we are all feet flat on the ground.

That is what I have to say.

Edit - actually, some more things to say. You dismiss me to easily - if you look at the few posts I have contributed, I only refer to Intelligent design and evolution. I have not condemened religion altogether and if I convey that attitude, I don't mean to.
farmerman
 
  2  
Thu 4 Dec, 2008 06:36 am
@pragmatic,
Quote:
Although I see the point that the judge made when he awarded the case to the plaintiffs in the Dover school case, I have the say the parents who brought the action were extreme. The one minute statement was not to force the children to study ID and forget evolution, but merely to flag that there are other explainations



Thats incorrect. The case was brought because the school board president was openly bulldozing the adoption of a gradual program of ID and Creationism into the science curricula. The "reading" of the statement was merely the first step in which the validity of the whole proposal was being tested. This also included the adoption of a clearly Creationist Biology Text (which had , in its second edition, merely changed the word "Creationism" to "Intelligent Design" throughout the text, (a few hundred times as I recall) . It also included the creation of several "Study groups" in Biology for the expressed purpose of utilizing ID Resources in the Bio program. Most all of the teachers rebelled and were "Threatened" wrt their tenure as science teachers.
The case filing was not merely a flippant response to a "harmless" reading of a disclaimer. The disclaimer was, instead, a measurable goalpost to the adoption of a "balanced treatment" of ID along side of science.

The very witnesses for the ID side agreed that the supernatural should be included in science. (When we know that it, by definition, cannot be tested , verified, disproven or rendered false.).
Kitzmiller, whose name is in the title in the case filing, included several others who were both parents and teachers. Ms Kitzmiller was willing to be first because she was one who was most seriously threatened by Mr Buckingham, the school board president, as well as by the SChool Suprerintendent.

These are facts that are not in dispute and even though a summary judgement was sought in that respect, it was denied by the court. (I do not know whether it was Judge Jones who denied the SUmmary Judgement motion so that the case had to move forward)
Shortly after the summary judgement failed, the Discovery Institute removed its support from the entire affair by taking an entirely new tack via their website. They openly criticized the reading of the statement (not yet in practice) and substituted the "Teaching of Darwinism's strengths and weaknesses", seems that they were involved in a game of strategy that was beginning to unravel according to the Institutes own "5 year plan"
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 4 Dec, 2008 06:38 am
@pragmatic,
How do you get to a hypothesis without the question?

I don't dismiss anybody.

Quote:
I won't rule out mystical forces.


Anti-IDers have to do.
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 4 Dec, 2008 06:43 am
@pragmatic,
Quote:
I don't rule out mystical spirituality - I've heard of miracles happening and I believe such miracles do happen with no scientific explaination. Its EXACTLY because there has no been scientific explaination posed so far that I think there are mystical forces at work
. However, Im sure you dont include spirituality (supernatural) as science. Thats the only , and fundamental, distinction.

Does it have the evidence to belong in a scientific inquiry? or is it a metaphysical journey of inquiry, satisfying to ones senses perhaps , but not carrying any evidence.
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 4 Dec, 2008 06:52 am
@spendius,
pragmatic-

I refer you to the ID thread at the time of Dover. effemm had most of it on Ignore. He can't handle the psychosomatic realm. He can only think in terms of clockworks. It's a strategy to save the risk of making loss-of-face errors.
0 Replies
 
pragmatic
 
  1  
Thu 4 Dec, 2008 04:11 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
The "reading" of the statement was merely the first step in which the validity of the whole proposal was being tested. This also included the adoption of a clearly Creationist Biology Text (which had , in its second edition, merely changed the word "Creationism" to "Intelligent Design" throughout the text, (a few hundred times as I recall) . It also included the creation of several "Study groups" in Biology for the expressed purpose of utilizing ID Resources in the Bio program. Most all of the teachers rebelled and were "Threatened" wrt their tenure as science teachers.


Oh yes, the Of Pandas and People text. Okay as I understood the case, the action was brought because of the statement - where the teachers refused to read the statement and so the board had to bring in administrative officers to read the one minute statement and the parents got offended - Obviously I have summarised it too easily.

Quote:
Kitzmiller, whose name is in the title in the case filing, included several others who were both parents and teachers. Ms Kitzmiller was willing to be first because she was one who was most seriously threatened by Mr Buckingham, the school board president, as well as by the SChool Suprerintendent
.

That man did NOT impress me at all - friendly and victimised attitude, but in fact willing to use underhanded measures to obtain what he wanted. I know Bonsell lied under oath regarding donations to fund the publication of the Pandas text - what did Bill Buckingham perjurise?

People do not help their cause when they say "all I need to know is 'God created.' That's all I need to know."
pragmatic
 
  1  
Thu 4 Dec, 2008 04:13 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
However, Im sure you dont include spirituality (supernatural) as science. Thats the only , and fundamental, distinction
.

I don't include it - I agree with Judge Jones when he said that ID contained elements of supernatural and therefore could not be classified as science. I merely say I do believe that there may be forces at work which either cannot be explained or have not yet been explained by science.
pragmatic
 
  1  
Thu 4 Dec, 2008 04:15 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
I won't rule out mystical forces.

Quote:
Anti-IDers have to do.


I don't believe in ID because there's another more convincing theory compared to it. I do believe in miracles (not the song) which so far as not been dismissed or degraded by another stronger theory or explaination - does that make me someone which rules out mystical forces?
0 Replies
 
pragmatic
 
  1  
Thu 4 Dec, 2008 04:21 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
How do you get to a hypothesis without the question?


You don't. A question is required for a hypothesis - that's why I said your last comment was a question for a hypothesis. Its just you classified it as a hypothesis and I was merely pointing out to you it wasn't a hypothesis, it was the question for one.

Look lets not get into these silly insignificant details. I like my technical terms, but this would get nowhere in the overall ID argument. If you say your question is a hypothesis, fine.
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 4 Dec, 2008 04:36 pm
@pragmatic,
Well- I don't wish to argue the point either. It's rather an abstruse philosophical matter really. At the ordinary everyday, one born every minute level, I take your point. You are correct. I ought to have phrased it differently. I wasn't aware I was dealing with an intellectual as I haven't seen one on here before.

Anyway- it's pub time and I've sweat a bit today.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 4 Dec, 2008 04:48 pm
@pragmatic,
Can you be more specific about what you are talking about? What "forces at work" hasn't been explained by science?
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 4 Dec, 2008 06:19 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The stuff that it is beyond the scope of words ci.

We evolved from a wordless world. There are residues of it. The "oceanic feeling" some call it. You know-- that woosy stuff when you are contemplating a novel sunset on one of your trips to exotic locations and you come over all thrummy about your wisdom in choosing to witness it at great expense and all.

Science has a problem with words. It's as if that residue from the millions years of evolution has been wiped out by it's certainties. The living core of life I mean. Just dismissed.

And here's the Ignore button having the same effect, withdrawal, as a primitive organism exhibits when the living core is annoyed. Rendered anxious. Like when you poke a hedgehog with a stick.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 4 Dec, 2008 06:28 pm
@pragmatic,
Quote:
Okay as I understood the case, the action was brought because of the statement - where the teachers refused to read the statement and so the board had to bring in administrative officers to read the one minute statement and the parents got offended


Yes--but only when some lawyer came round and said "does this not offend you?
Let it offend you and we can put the town on the map, fill the place up with camera crews and journalists and make a killing. The taxpayers will hardly notice. We have the Media on board."

Did hotel prices increase during the crisis?
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 4 Dec, 2008 06:35 pm
@spendius,
It might even be that the "administrative officers" thought to themselves--"this'll offend the buggers and we can get a gravy train running."

One does have to think of all the possibilties when one is not able to see the actual matters at hand under a microscope for oneself. Any scientist will tell you that.

It has nothing to do with the kids. Nothing.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 4 Dec, 2008 08:03 pm
Three posts from Willie Wanker. He really was wound up. SOmebody slip caffeine in his Ripple?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 4 Dec, 2008 08:04 pm
Do they still make ripple?
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 5 Dec, 2008 05:00 am
@farmerman,
Looks like effemm's talking to himself about his own brain activity again. Science, intelligent design, the kids and participating in the thread can all go hang in the presence of his wit.

Using Ignore defines a troll.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Fri 5 Dec, 2008 11:42 am
http://ncseweb.org/news/2008/12/creation-museum-rebuffed-by-cincinnati-zoo-003128
Quote:
Creation "Museum" rebuffed by Cincinnati Zoo
* December 1st, 2008


"A promotional deal between the Cincinnati Zoo and the Creation Museum was scuttled Monday after the zoo received dozens of angry calls and emails about the partnership," reported the Cincinnati Enquirer (December 1, 2008). The promotion involved a package deal for tickets to the zoo's annual Festival of Lights and to a Christmas-themed event at Answers in Genesis's Creation Museum. The museum, which opened its doors in northern Kentucky during Memorial Day weekend 2007, aims to illuminate "the effects of biblical history on our present and future world" " that is, to evangelize for Answers in Genesis's particular brand of young-earth creationism.

On November 30, 2008, biologist and blogger P. Z. Myers complained about the promotion at his blog Pharyngula, writing, "the Cincinnati Zoo has betrayed its mission and its trust in a disgraceful way, by aligning themselves with a creationist institution that is a laughing stock to the rest of the world, and a mark of shame to the United States," and urging his readers to write to the zoo to "point out the conflict between what they are doing and what their goal as an educational and research institution ought to be." Other bloggers echoed his call, and the zoo was evidently flooded with calls and e-mails, prompting it to cancel the promotion because of the uproar. No refunds will be necessary, since no packages of tickets had been sold.

NCSE's previous coverage of the Creation "Museum" includes Daniel Phelps's review and overview and Timothy H. Heaton's account of his visit. NCSE also sponsored a statement, signed by almost one thousand scientists in the three states surrounding the museum " Kentucky, Ohio, and Indiana " expressing their concern about the effect of the scientifically inaccurate materials displayed there: "Students who accept this material as scientifically valid are unlikely to succeed in science courses at the college level. These students will need remedial instruction in the nature of science, as well as in the specific areas of science misrepresented by Answers in Genesis."
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 5 Dec, 2008 01:11 pm
@rosborne979,
It is a well know fact that no atheist scientist can object to a comparison between his scientific curiosity and that of an energetic puppy dog sniffing at whatever it takes its fancy to sniff at. In both cases the drive to investigate has biological roots and a biologist, more than most, ought to be the first to recogise the fact. Science is, after all, the exercise of idle curiosity for no particular reason outside of that curiosity. Mr Myers seems to be in a rut.

To the extent that Mr Myers is engaged in biology in the pursuit of money or dignity he betrays the absence of a sound biological understanding. He may well be a dignified person but we are entitled to regard him as an animal on his own recommendation, and presumably that of members of the NCSE , and to see his character, in relation to money and dignity as not being a derivative of biological forces but of another force essentially religious.

His assumption that students will need " remedial instruction" if they expose themslves to what most of us will view as an entertainment is obviously necessary, however silly it is, to his logic. He himself, as a young person, will have been exposed to many such entertainments with no ill effect except maybe the one I have drawn attention to; namely, being somewhat confused.

If demonstrating a need for "remedial instruction" is a stigma then I think a large number of us might justifiably hang our heads in shame and especially any of us who have sought the aid of psychiatrists, psychologists or counsellors of various degrees of competence.

It is also well known that it doesn't take a large number of people to flood an institution with "calls and e-mails" and even less than that when the level of "flooding" is left floating in the air in a most unscientific fashion. As is the category of "other bloggers". I assume that "evidently" means than somebody told him.

Has he a biological explanation of his urge to cut a dignified figure in the community?

And what other activities in the field of entertainment does he seek to prohibit on the same grounds he is using for the Creation Museum?

Methinks taxpayer's money would be better employed if he sniffed out some biological unsniffed corner and reported his findings in the usual way rather than be seen taking advantage of the directors of the Cincinnati Zoo having waylaid their sense of humour all of a sudden.




0 Replies
 
pragmatic
 
  1  
Tue 9 Dec, 2008 09:32 pm
@cicerone imposter,
One magazine I read introduced miracles with the story of a girl who couldn't walk and doctors could not explain why. She prayed to God that she be given this ability again and after the prayer, she jumped up and ran to her parents - again doctors couldn't explain that either. The girl explained she just knew that she could use her legs again if she just prayed. The magazine was actually Readers Digest, not something from Church - and I regard RD as a pretty reputable publisher. The article went on to ask if it was merely faith as opposed to a miracle and that science probably will never explain the work behind miracles.
 

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