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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 8 Jun, 2008 03:21 pm
What was the old phrase about the RN --- "rum, buggery, and the lash"?

We were generally careful to arrange regular port visits to Palma Majorca, Hong Kong, Subic Bay, Pattya Beach, Perth, etc.

However, I don't think that the real issue here has much to do with Darwin, whose theories were acknowledged as empirical, generally based on ample evidence, and confronted with few opposing facts able to long withstand further study.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 8 Jun, 2008 03:37 pm
youve arrived late george. Spendi is merely trying to revive a fairly dead thread that is displaying rigor. I have no idea after his last question was answered in several fashions, how he , such the attention whore he is, ould milk it for one more page of ten.

Saying that an Aircraft Carrier is really "sailing the sea", is like saying that living on the Juan de Fuca plate is also on a sea voyage. To experience the sea, you need to sail a boat that doesnt have its own Zip Code. Cool
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Chumly
 
  1  
Sun 8 Jun, 2008 03:51 pm
My telephone answering machine offered this viewpoint:

"end of messages.....low battery"
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aidan
 
  1  
Sun 8 Jun, 2008 04:12 pm
If we're allowed to talk about the ethics and issues around artificial insemination - I'll participate. Just let me know if that's an option.

I think that could be interesting and could be related to the evolution and continued survival of the species.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 8 Jun, 2008 04:25 pm
farmerman wrote:
youve arrived late george. Spendi is merely trying to revive a fairly dead thread that is displaying rigor. I have no idea after his last question was answered in several fashions, how he , such the attention whore he is, ould milk it for one more page of ten.

Saying that an Aircraft Carrier is really "sailing the sea", is like saying that living on the Juan de Fuca plate is also on a sea voyage. To experience the sea, you need to sail a boat that doesnt have its own Zip Code. Cool


I take a much more liberal and tolerant attitude towards Spendius than perhaps do you. He does represent a certain point of view, but he doesn't denigrate (at least seriously) those who hold different views. That counts for a lot with me.

Besides what the hell does a lubber like you know about the sea?? :wink: I've seen green water breaking over the flight deck (72' above the waterline), and the deck rolling 25 degrees port & starboard. Small boat guys will snicker about the 25 degrees, but with about 50 aircraft, each worth about $60 million, moving around (or chained down) on the flight deck, and about 80 men working there, it does get and keep your attention. (BTW -- we did have our own zip code though.)
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 8 Jun, 2008 04:28 pm
farmerman wrote:
youve arrived late george. Spendi is merely trying to revive a fairly dead thread that is displaying rigor. I have no idea after his last question was answered in several fashions, how he , such the attention whore he is, ould milk it for one more page of ten.

Saying that an Aircraft Carrier is really "sailing the sea", is like saying that living on the Juan de Fuca plate is also on a sea voyage. To experience the sea, you need to sail a boat that doesnt have its own Zip Code. Cool


farmerman, Thanks for the good laugh; love your "a boat that doesn't have its own Zip code."
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 8 Jun, 2008 04:29 pm
you can go to hell too, cicerone. Cool
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 8 Jun, 2008 04:37 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
you can go to hell too, cicerone. Cool


Been there, done that~!
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 8 Jun, 2008 04:38 pm
BTW, georgeob, ready for another San Francisco gathering in the summer of 09?
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Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Sun 8 Jun, 2008 04:46 pm
spendius wrote:
I don't think the friend could have been Jeynes. So who was he and why did he refuse? It is possible, though unlikely, as somebody would have arrived at the Evolution theory I feel sure, that without FitzRoy's friend refusing the offer, I would guess because of a woman or a few women, we would not now be having this debate on A2K and in the courts and organs of media. We might now, instead, be polishing our shoes for Evensong where we might have seen the ladies in all their finery rather than in the fat-bottomed jeans and baggy pullovers tramping dolefully around the malls.


lol, this quote contains spendius's most common argumentation in a nutshell, doesn't it? Somewhat obscured references to sex, the evils he thinks may be caused by the thing he doesn't like (unsupported assertion, of course), combined with complete inanity.

I know that you're familiar with Alred Russel Wallace, spendius, so I have to wonder whether you're being dishonest or dense in making the above argument about whether evolutionary theory would have arisen. There's also the very simple idea that the data warrants the theory in any case. The geographic distribution of animals had been an interesting question for quite some time, as had the similarities between animals. Perhaps a more simple way to put it is that Darwin didn't live in a vacuum, and while he was very successful, I do not suspect that his discoveries were much ahead of his time.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 8 Jun, 2008 04:47 pm
"To the vagrants life, thread..."

I began this thread a few years ago. It was a journal of our sea trips on a small "lobstah" boat (8' ,41'LOA). To us, 10' seas are sobering and wed stay on land in anything higher(unless we got caught in sudden squalls).

Course, Id never do the Indian Ocean like the Nimmitz boats, but at least, with jet dreive, we can toodle into a fishing port without major dredging. Our biggest trips were Maine to Newfoundland . (I figgered out the diesel cost today and I nearly ****)

PS spendi and I have been going at it with one theme in mind. He thinks Im a dunce, but I do know a good joke when I hear one. I think people credit him for a "turn of phrase" that are both obvious and often incorrect. (Thats the part of me thats been contaminated by Chem Engineers's)
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Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Sun 8 Jun, 2008 04:54 pm
georgeob1 wrote:

I take a much more liberal and tolerant attitude towards Spendius than perhaps do you. He does represent a certain point of view, but he doesn't denigrate (at least seriously) those who hold different views. That counts for a lot with me.


lol, he calls the people who point out ID's vacuity "AIDsers". He's also tried to claim that I'm an elitist who wants to make everyone look at how smart I am and swoon, all because I listed a rather common fallacy that he implied, and continues to imply, that we should follow (naturalistic fallacy/appeal to nature).

But no, no denigration there Very Happy.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 8 Jun, 2008 04:55 pm
wqelcome back ci. I thought you were in "Gizmachistan" or one of them. How was the expedition?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 8 Jun, 2008 05:03 pm
farmerman wrote:
wqelcome back ci. I thought you were in "Gizmachistan" or one of them. How was the expedition?


Fascinating as hell; not only are they mostly Muslim, but they also like Americans. We took pictures with both young and old, and many are well educated; some we met speaks seven languages. I was worried I'd stick out like a sore Asian in the Middle East, but almost half of them looks like me with Asian faces! Also learned that Osaka, Japan, was active on the Silk Road, something new I learned on this journey. We visited an archaeological site in Tajikistan, but it wasn't worth the half-day trip nor the $192 VISA cost. Their bazaar was more interesting, though.

Visit my thread on this tour. I'm about half way finished.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 8 Jun, 2008 05:18 pm
Mr S. wrote-

Quote:
spendius wrote:
You still haven't explained Dumbski's claims. All you've done is name drop. It looks like you don't know.


I've listed his main claim directly to you once and alluded to it many times. It's called 'specified complexity' or 'complex, specified information'. He also does other rather inane things, but they're mostly peripheral and just make him look silly


He is just bragging that the complexities he can see, or thinks he can see, are more complex than the ones the ordinary average Joe can see like somebody might be a better shot than the rest of us or have had a more unfortunate start in life like Monte Python once sketched with four equally rich self-improvers arguing about who had come furthest.

The only trouble is is that the complexity that's there is infinite. Dembski's idea of complexity, specified complexity or even complex, specified information is but a little pop off the bottom of the scale which you risk missing if you blink. It's more to do with those chaps on the beach who jump up enthusiastically when the girls suggest a game of volleyball rather than lounge in the deck chair sipping a cool beer.

Rate busters not to mince words. Blacklegs. Scum.

Calamity Jane said that scientists were "nerds" on these very threads and nerds can't pull without the get-up-and-go spirit which, as every scientist knows, runs directly opposite, 180 degrees, to the conservation of energy principle and the thesis that evolution wastes no energy. (Unless you're Jewish I mean.)

If Dembski thinks that alluding to 'specified complexity' or 'complex, specified information' is going to get me to bask in the glow of his immanence he can whistle for it.

I can't find any info on his personal life. Is that an oversight on the part of Google and Wiki or is he hiding something?

He's looks like a loser of expensive (for the taxpayer) court cases to me.

I can't see why his name appears on a science thread.

Try Personal Relationships S.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 8 Jun, 2008 07:19 pm
Shirakawasuna wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:

I take a much more liberal and tolerant attitude towards Spendius than perhaps do you. He does represent a certain point of view, but he doesn't denigrate (at least seriously) those who hold different views. That counts for a lot with me.


lol, he calls the people who point out ID's vacuity "AIDsers". He's also tried to claim that I'm an elitist who wants to make everyone look at how smart I am and swoon, all because I listed a rather common fallacy that he implied, and continues to imply, that we should follow (naturalistic fallacy/appeal to nature).

But no, no denigration there Very Happy.

Spendius is a bit cranky, and he delights in confounding others with his often overstated views, however, he is a man of great insight and discernment.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 8 Jun, 2008 07:23 pm
farmerman wrote:
"To the vagrants life, thread..."

I began this thread a few years ago. It was a journal of our sea trips on a small "lobstah" boat (8' ,41'LOA). To us, 10' seas are sobering and wed stay on land in anything higher(unless we got caught in sudden squalls).

Course, Id never do the Indian Ocean like the Nimmitz boats, but at least, with jet dreive, we can toodle into a fishing port without major dredging. Our biggest trips were Maine to Newfoundland . (I figgered out the diesel cost today and I nearly ****)


The real truth farmerman is that, on the ocean, all ships are small. It is the wavelength, more than the height, that gets a boat or a ship - of any size - heaving, yawing and rolling. However, I'll confess to damn little experience on a 41' boat. Laughing
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 8 Jun, 2008 08:12 pm
I was on a small yacht at the Galapagos Islands, and our our 16-passenger heaved, yawed, and rolled most of the night; I was literally rolling on my bed, but I know that was tame compared to what can happen at Drakes Passage.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Sun 8 Jun, 2008 09:18 pm
Hi-yah CI,
glad to hear you're alive and well!
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Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Sun 8 Jun, 2008 09:20 pm
spendius wrote:
He is just bragging that the complexities he can see, or thinks he can see, are more complex than the ones the ordinary average Joe can see like somebody might be a better shot than the rest of us or have had a more unfortunate start in life like Monte Python once sketched with four equally rich self-improvers arguing about who had come furthest.


Uh, no. Did you actually take that five minutes to learn about Dembski? You could at least start with wikipedia Wink.

He promotes specified complexity by hiding his fallacies in the language of math, often in words he just makes up. He attempts to show what "complexity" is, describes it with a bunch of metaphors and some actual allusions to math. Then he does the same for "specification". Never does he actually present some clear models or his actual math, though, which for someone touted as a mathematician possessing something of worth, is like a coworker who shows up naked and drunk to the office.

His basic claim is "lookit my pseudomath" and "my pseudomath shows how only designers make that stuff".

spendius wrote:
Calamity Jane said that scientists were "nerds" on these very threads and nerds can't pull without the get-up-and-go spirit which, as every scientist knows, runs directly opposite, 180 degrees, to the conservation of energy principle and the thesis that evolution wastes no energy. (Unless you're Jewish I mean.)


LOL, spendi, for the sake of your relativist God, stop pretending to know anything about science. There's nothing about the conservation of energy that runs counter to a "get-up-and-go" spirit, even symbolically.

spendius wrote:
I can't find any info on his personal life. Is that an oversight on the part of Google and Wiki or is he hiding something?


I know little about it, other than he's the son of a science professor and has a hilarious problem keeping his religion out of his math.

spendius wrote:
He's looks like a loser of expensive (for the taxpayer) court cases to me.


Pretty much, although he's too cowardly to even have the decency (like Behe) to perjure himself. At Dover, he bailed out at the last minute.

spendius wrote:
I can't see why his name appears on a science thread.


The thread is about Intelligent Design. Dembski's ideas constitute approximately a third of the rhetorical support of the ID movement. Behe's are the other third, and this last third is a big mishmash of arguments from ignorance and propaganda.

spendius wrote:
Try Personal Relationships S.


Um....

georgeob1 wrote:
Spendius is a bit cranky, and he delights in confounding others with his often overstated views, however, he is a man of great insight and discernment.


This thread disagrees Wink. He has overstated views, definitely, but he seems to be a man with some education but confused ideas who hides those ideas behind sloppy attempts at colorful writing.
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