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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 1 May, 2008 03:29 pm
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
Evolution bill nearing demise
(by Shannon Colavecchio-Van Sickler, St. Petersburg Times, May 1, 2008)

The Senate, at Brandon Republican Ronda Storms' request, just refused to accept the House version of an evolution teaching bill that Storms has been championing all session.

That means the bill (Sb 2692) has to bounced back to the House, where members will be asked to approve Storms' more broadly worded "Evolution Academic Freedom Act," which Storms says is aimed at protection teachers and students who question and critique the theory of evolution.

Majority Whip Rep. Ellyn Bogdanoff, R-Fort Lauderdale, has said there is little "appetite" in the House for Storms' proposal. And session ends tomorrow, meaning it's slim odds this legislation will pass this year.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 1 May, 2008 03:33 pm
wande writes every post-

Quote:
The better theory is the one that explains more, that explains with greater precision, and that allows us to make better predictions."


That is a classic example of extorting scientific cachet simply by talking about "better theories", "greater precision" and "better predictions" without actually bothering to go in for any of it.

Why would anyone who got behind a statement like that restrict themselves to partial journalistic outpourings with no knowledge of the motives in play and turn away from looking into the psychosomatic problem, the "controversial issues", the property question, the class issues, the reproduction difficulties and the social and economic dynamics of the "circulating elites" of Pareto which volunteer themselves unasked to concern themselves with the matters in hand and end up quoting a
police agency employee taking night classes to become a science teacher who wants his children to study "objective science" when it is most unlikely he has any idea of what objective science means, it being simply a high sounding phrase to burnish his image with, and particulary as it relates to bringing up children to be citizens. He probably wants them to be football stars as well as most people might do?

You can't have Popper and then not have Popper as soon as rumpy-pumpy gets mentioned.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 1 May, 2008 05:09 pm
Well- maybe you can on the Relationships thread.

Anything goes on there I assume.

On a Science thread it is ridiculous.

It constitutes bringing Science into disrepute.

Any self-respecting scientist would have his toes curling in embarrassment, a dry throat, a keening sound as he sucked air in through his teeth, his eyeballs rolling with one eyebrow raised down the back of his neck, reaching for the double gin and taking a long suck on his cheroot to see his vocation rubbished by the AIDs-ers on this thread.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 1 May, 2008 05:25 pm
I really want to see this bill (or a compromise) pass and get vetoed or overturned by the State Supreme Court. Everyone will look like total dooch bags if this is allowed to go forward and get challenged and lose in court. Then the constituency will start a kerfuffle about wasting taxpayer money over crap like "protection of ID proponents". Remember, its a minority religious belief that has no place in the science class and teachers who teach it should be called out as the trogs that they are.


In our local paper today was this really passionate exclamation (letter to eds) about what a wonderful movie "Expelled" is and how the writer had no idea that teachers were suffereing at the hands of the atheist scientists. The writer had no idea it was atotal "big lie" cooked up by the Discovery Institute and delivered by equally idiotic and fraudulently sincere Ben Stein .
What a total crock of ****. Its merely an example of the devolution of our civ. When the world starts believing that the Laws of Science dont work, then theres no hope .
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 1 May, 2008 05:41 pm
Quite the opposite fm actually.

When the world starts believing that scientists have all the answers we are up ****'s creek without a paddle.

Goodstyle.

Scientists are convenient tools. And that's a hope. A bet even.

When Oscar Wilde was asked about future wars he suggested two chemists approaching the frontier with a bottle in their hands. Hands on corks. Unblinking.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Thu 1 May, 2008 08:36 pm
Much ado about nothing . . . i'm more convinced than ever that this was all grandstanding to look good to the bible thumpers without actually doing anything which could cause trouble for the state board of education.

The problem is, the Governor has got to be pulling his hair out. First Jeb Bush and now Charlie Crist have been singing and dancing like mad to attract high tech industry to Florida, and now the goys and birls in Tallahassee come up with **** like this.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 2 May, 2008 04:21 am
Attracting hi-tech industry to Florida means not attracting it to other states or even transferring it from them. With readjustments to relative property values of course.

And not everybody will be in favour of such a policy. It isn't all gravy. Getting a bunch of know-all nerdy scientists at your back door is not everybody's favourite indoor pastime.

So, Set, it's hardly "much ado about nothing".

And if you are "more convinced that ever" you must have been less convinced earlier when you stuck all that other stuff on this thread and it still doesn't mean you're totally convinced now. You're on a sliding scale.

I'm not. And "more convinced that ever" could mean up from 10% to 11% from a scientific point of view.

Doubt making up the difference. That's why there's bad-mouthing rather than that mature debate which new viewers to A2K might expect to find on the Science forum.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 2 May, 2008 05:16 am
If this entire legislative exercise was mere pandering then its even a more pitiful exercise in desperation on behalf of the IDjits and their ilk. Oh well, well see today if they publish their events calendar for next session .
Im not sure, is Florid one of them states that only has a semi-annual or does it have an annual legislature?
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 2 May, 2008 06:01 am
Quote:
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 2 May, 2008 06:22 pm
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
Evolution bills die in Legislature as session ends
(Sarasota Herald Tribune, May 2, 2008)

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. Hotly debated evolution bills that critics said would inject religious doctrine into public schools in the guise of science died a quiet death Friday on the final day of the legislative session.

House and Senate supporters, mostly Republicans, were unable to resolve their dispute over two versions of the legislation before the close of the session.

The Senate favored a bill (SB 2692) that would have prohibited school officials from punishing teachers who used "scientific information" to challenge evolution.

A House bill (HB 1483) would have gone farther, not just allowing such challenges but requiring that schools teach "critical analysis" of evolution.

The Senate version was based on model legislation advocated by the Discovery Institute, a Seattle think tank that supports research on intelligent design. That theory holds that some features of the universe and living things can be explained by an "intelligent cause."

Some intelligent design advocates claim it's scientific in nature but a federal judge in Pennsylvania ruled that it is a religious concept.

The Discovery Institute says no state has yet adopted its legislation but five have included critical analysis requirements in their school science standards.

Florida Citizens for Science opposed the legislation, saying it would lead to a costly court challenge.

"We are afraid of the stunting effect this legislation will have on science education, as students will be exposed to old, discredited arguments against evolution that have their roots in religious protestations against that science," the group said in a statement.
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anton bonnier
 
  1  
Sat 3 May, 2008 12:22 am
Can't wait till alternative science of evolution is forced down the throats of children in religion classes in religious schools and perhaps we should make it mandatory in churches as well... Oh well, one can wish can't one.
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username
 
  1  
Sat 3 May, 2008 12:50 am
Now correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't all science a "critical analysis" of data and hypotheses? You're always analyzing your results for possible mistakes and misinterpretations. Evolution has been subject to critical analysis for a century and a half and it's always passed. And I believe I heard somewhere that something like 97 or 98% of biology teachers regard evolution as the accurate picture of the biological world. Which as the proposed law was written would seem to mean that they can teach evolution and the right wingers and IDers are specifically barred from trying to get them to include intelligent design, because the teachers are in fact doing a critical analysis of evolution. It seems like an unintended, on the writers' part, consequence of the law is that if evolution is taught, as most teachers would do, then retaliation against them is barred, just as they intended it to be barred against the miniscule number of teachers who might teach ID. Which might actually be a good thing.`
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Diest TKO
 
  1  
Sat 3 May, 2008 06:39 am
I'd like to hear a Christian's view of Scientology.

Is it a rational belief?
Why don't you believe in it's claims?

If the religious were to be able to see themselves from the outside, they might not feel comfortable with what they see.

T
K
O
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 3 May, 2008 10:11 am
Oswald Spengler wrote-

Quote:
It is impossible, however, to delimit the actual frontier between religious and artistic expression languages and pure communication-languages..........For, on one hand, no one can speak without putting into his mode of speech some significant trait of emphasis that has nothing to do with the communication as such; and, on the other hand, we all know the drama in which the poet wants to "say" something that he could have said equally well or better in an exhortation, .....


So eradicating Christianity from schools is impossible as I have tried to explain on a few previous occasions. Such an ambition can only be entertained by uneducated people who use words to mean nothing other that what they wish them to mean irrespective of what anybody else might think: i.e. closed off minds.

Communication languages involve a "thou" being addressed and they presuppose a sense of meanings in the "thou" that corresponds to those in the speaker.

The basic position of the AIDs-er's argument is the eradication of religious and artistic expression languages so that all communication between people is reduced to pure system as with a railway timetable.

To the extent AIDs-ers fall short of such an ambition, when it is convenient to them, represents the extent to which they are fractionally baked and when I used "half-baked" previously I was actually offering an exaggeration because they have not been in the oven five minutes yet.

For those who wish to be Abled 2 Know the complex arguments involved in distinguishing between expression language and communication language I recommend Spenglers's chapter in Decline of the West; Peoples, Races, Tongues.

The debate so far, at Dover and in Florida, has been conducted entirely in communication language and it is quite obvious that the participants have shown not the slightest inkling of this most important consideration.

Communication language is characterised by ubiquitous assertion techniques and is thus necessarily allied with "force". When it isn't it is void of content. One gets slogans and posters rather than poetry and art.

Expression language only communicates with those people who are receptive to it and it makes no attempt to cajole or dictate.
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Kayyam
 
  1  
Sat 3 May, 2008 07:04 pm
What pseudo-intellectual rubbish. There is no Christian science or Jewish science or homosexual science or Kurdish science etc.

/Kayyam
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curtis73
 
  1  
Sun 4 May, 2008 04:46 am
I just had to post to make this thread have 220,000 replies. Holy crap.
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Francis
 
  1  
Sun 4 May, 2008 04:48 am
Not replies. Views..
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 5 May, 2008 11:19 am
Quote:
So it has come about that modern civilization is in a very special degree a culture of the intellectual powers, in the narrower sense of the term, as contrasted with the emotional traits of human nature. Its achievements and chief merits are found in this field of learning, and its chief defects elsewhere. And it is on its achievements in this domain of detached and dispassionate knowledge that modern civilized mankind most ingenuously plumes itself and confidently rests its hopes. The more emotional and spiritual virtues that once held the first place have been overshadowed by the increasing consideration given to proficiency in matter-of-fact knowledge. As prime movers in the tide of civilized life, these sentimental movements of the human spirit belong in the past, -at least such is the self-complacent avowal of the modern spokesmen of culture. The modern technology, and the mechanistic conception of things that goes with that technology, are alien to the spirit of the "Old Order." The Church, the court, the camp, the drawing-room, where these elder and perhaps nobler virtues had their laboratory and playground, have grown weedy and gone to seed. Much of the apparatus of the old order, with the good old way, still stands over in a state of decent repair, and the sentimentally reminiscent endeavors of certain spiritual "hold-overs" still lend this apparatus of archaism something of a galvanic life. But that power of aspiration that once surged full and hot in the cults of faith, fashion, sentiment, exploit, and honor, now at its best comes to such a head as it may in the concerted adulation of matter-of-fact.


Thorstein Veblen. The Higher Learning in America.

The full text is on Google and familiarity with it is mandatory for anyone who expects to be taken seriously in this debate although I will admit the impossibilty of such familiarity being within reach of those given to using phrases such as "psuedo intellectual rubbish" in their blurted expostulations about which the less said the better.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 6 May, 2008 05:26 am
Its amazing that spendi, attempting as he does, to sound like he actually knows something on this discussion, fails to make the connection that this is about scientific literacy in our schools, a subject that hes unable to wrap his arms around.

Oh well, its not my month to keep an eye on him, hes such a twit.



AS the Florida anti-evolution bill has failed to even go before the full legislature, this means that they are free to reintroduce in next session. Let us not lose the fact that there were (or are) similar bills, each written in full or in part by the Discovery Institute, being considered in

MISSOURI

MICHIGAN

ALABAMA

LOUISIANA




ALSO, I wonder whether the summary judgement granted in CAlifornia to the U Cal DAVis defendents, has entered our minds as being a partial victory for the IDjits?

ALSO, Im wondering whether the ICR has prevailed in TExas in the case to have a MS in "Science" become accredited at some Creationist College


SO much to know , so little time. Guess Ill have to visit the NCSE web blogs.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 6 May, 2008 08:50 am
(farmerman: did you hear about this one?)

NEW ANTI-EVOLUTION CONTROVERSY IN MAINE

Quote:
School District Director: Evolution, creationism are unproven theories
(KENNEBEC MORNING SENTINEL, May 6, 2008)

Neither creationism nor evolution belongs in a high-school science curriculum, a School Administrative District 59 director believes.

Matthew Linkletter of Athens says that both are merely theories that represent "personal beliefs and world views," rather than proven science.

Linkletter suggested during last week's SAD 59 board meeting that the board discuss evolution, the "Big Bang Theory" and other studies he believes should be deleted from the curriculum.

The school board tabled action on the science curriculum at the April 28 meeting, and will reconsider the issue when it meets at 7 p.m. May 19.

Linkletter, a Christian, said there is no way to prove either evolution or creationism.

"You can't show, observe or prove it," Linkletter said of the belief systems. "It's something you have to believe by faith. It doesn't meet the criteria of science.

"If it's not scientifically verifiable, then maybe we should leave it out of the science classes. When you make a statement that's not backed by facts and just represents a world view, then it has no place."

Linkletter said he wants the best science for SAD 59 students, who should "be armed with the truth." They should be able to explain the origins of life according to evolution if it is taught in the schools, he said.

"Nobody has the answer to the origins of life. It's a philosophical question."

High-school science teacher Jessica Ward disagrees.

"The empirical proof of evolution is in the study of genetics and how genes relate between organisms," said Ward, who teaches advanced-placement senior biology, senior anatomy/physiology and 10th-grade biology. She said evolution is proven, as an empirical matter of science, through studies of the human genome.

"My personal, as well as the National Science Teachers position, is that you can't teach genetics or ecology without evolution.

"The basis for it is the theory of evolution."

Ward noted that the Maine Learning Results mandates instruction in the theory of evolution. Schools would not be accredited without it, she said.

An effort to remove the theory of evolution from a high-school curriculum actually won temporary approval from the Kansas Board of Education, Ward noted.

In 2005, the Kansas Board of Education approved new public-school science standards that cast doubt on the theory of evolution. Two years later, however, the Kansas board repealed the ruling.

SAD 59 Board Chairman Norman Luce said that a high-school science curriculum might not be the correct forum for the study of evolution. A philosophy class might be a better fit, the Starks resident said.

"It's OK to have it somewhere, but it depends on how much time they're spending on it in the sciences curriculum," Luce said. "I don't care if everybody else in the country uses it. Science is about proving things. (Linkletter) has a good point."

Luce added that he is not necessarily opposed to the study of evolution, but is not sure how much time should be devoted to it.
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