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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 10:19 am
wande edited out the ridiculous word "ridiculous" from his previous post. He had it before the word "antievolution".

Perhaps he's mellowing.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 05:27 pm
You are supposed to answer the points raised in the discussion.

That's what "peer-reviewing" means.

Wouldn't it be a turn up for the book if Darwin had showed that confinement and cultivation had an effect on the ovaries and the testes, which are the joint motor of "variabilty", when "variabilty" implies a random happening. And that the ancient Greeks were aware of such things and used images of perfection rather than the sordid shite that the TV surrounds our sweet virgins with.

The very idea could render the teaching profession "passe". Along with all this other load of bollocks that is coming along for the ride.

The only way I would recommend teaching Darwin to kids is if you can guarantee that none of 50 million of the little buggers has an IQ greater than your own. Which I consider to be so remote a possibilty that I would bet there's a better chance of pigs breaking the sound barrier in level flight whilst wagging their ears.

Talking about teaching Darwin to kids is another matter entirely. I would need to know the economics of that before offering any speculations.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 05:43 pm
And talking about "peer-reviewing" is not quite, actually, when you get right down to it, from a scientific point of view, peer-reviewing.

Like recognising Einstein in a pub quiz is not quite proof that you are a physicist.

Despite how posh either sounds when you're emptying your lungs before an audience of cowed gumps or hangers on.

DARWIN SHOWS GREEK VOODOO HEAP BIG MEDICINE.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 30 Apr, 2008 08:36 am
Quote:
Anti-evolution bills defy science
(Daytona Beach News-Journal Editorial, April 30, 2008)

Florida wants to be known as a high-tech state. It's spent millions luring a renowned research institute, fought to hold on to its space industry and worked to attract electronics and defense contractors.

So why should the state's public-school teachers pretend there's credible scientific debate about the origins of species on this planet? It makes no sense -- unless you're a member of the Florida Legislature or the religious fundamentalists pushing lawmakers on the issue.

Lawmakers don't seem to be questioning the validity of "alternative theories" to evolution. Instead, they're bickering over how far they should push public schools to allow those alternatives -- which don't qualify as valid scientific theories -- to be taught. In the process, lawmakers strain the credibility of an education system that already ranks among the most distressed in the nation.

And they try their constituents' patience. Those listening to the debate on the House version of the evolution bill undoubtably came away with a poorer opinion of their elected leaders; the discussion was rancorous, peppered with sanctimony and disdain for established scientific standards.

That's in keeping with the actual text of the House bill. Sponsored by Rep. Alan Hayes, R-Umatilla, it requires teachers to present "scientific critical analysis" of evolution, including explaining alternatives like intelligent design. As Senate Minority Leader Steve Geller pointed out, the House bill could well require teachers to discuss the beliefs of cult groups that espouse the notion that life on earth began with the arrival of extraterrestial aliens.

In comparison -- but only in comparison -- the Senate bill, sponsored by Sen. Ronda Storms, R-Valrico, is better. It would prevent school systems from disciplining teachers who espouse alternatives to evolution. That bill still defies state science standards, which explicitly (and correctly) acknowledge that evolution is the only species-origination theory supported by empirical evidence and accepted by the vast majority of scientists worldwide. But the Senate bill wouldn't require professionals to teach intelligent design or other scientifically unsupported alternatives.

Ironically, the squabble over the differences in the House and Senate versions might well kill any chance of passing anti-evolution legislation this session. If neither Sen. Storms nor Rep. Hayes backs down, Florida schools win.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 30 Apr, 2008 11:52 am
If general education in Florida, or anywhere else, reached even into the lower reaches of the realms of excellence the first thing that would become apparent would be the laughing of the citizens at the pitiful state of journalism.

Why people who write the sort of infantile dross for a living that wande can't stop himself quoting would wish to raise educational standards is a mystery to me.

James Joyce borrowed half of a Widean aphorism for the first chapter of Ulysses. In full it reads-

Quote:
The nineteenth century dislike of Realism is the rage of Caliban seeing his own face in the glass. The nineteenth century dislike of Romanticism is the rage of Caliban not seeing his own face in the glass.


The two sides are right there.

I have proved quite conclusively, and defy any peer-reviewer to contradict me, that AIDs-er's dislike of Realism is profound and ineradicable and they have proved quite conclusively, and no peer-reviewer could possibly contradict them, that their dislike of Romanticism is a conceit they carry around with them at the same time as they exhibit every last aspect of the crassest forms of it.

And the same applies to every journalist wande has so tediously regaled us with.

Quote:
Those who find ugly meanings in beautiful things are corrupt without being charming. That is a fault.


Oscar Wilde.

Any fool can talk about being scientific. There is obviously no need for the fool to actually be scientific. It is sufficient to merely talk about it.

Walter Pater said that we must shift our attention from the object being observed to the "rivulets of the perception" of it.

As that would require the journalists and editors of the dross wande incessantly shoves onto the thread, for want of anything significant to contribute to the debate he began, to take a good look at themselves, all romantic delusions aside, we can hardly expect any sudden shifts in the rivulets of their perceptions which are, of course, 100% subjective and the polar opposite of scientific.

That silly sod up above hasn't even got the brains to say "Florida kids win". How can schools win. They are things. Things can't win. And it's the conclusion too.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 30 Apr, 2008 03:10 pm
spendi, Here's a clue for you; "realism" for all of us differ in many ways. Your realism seems to be based on the catch-22 syndrome; you're unable to define either side in a concise way for us to understand what you're trying to convey.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 30 Apr, 2008 03:30 pm
Not at all c.i. It's you who either won't or can't pay attention.

I read good stuff that requires attention. So I'm into that sort of idiom.

Tell me why you think the guy wrote "Florida schools win". It isn't as if it was said in an argument. It was "composed", revised and edited and printed. Two major solecisms in three words is dumbed down goodstyle.

So what is the thread doing cluttered up with the cruddled and carefully crafted efforts of that sort of writer? No kids and a thing's won. In an editorial. Zounds.

Tell me.

Next question- how did that guy get his job? America has some great writers. Why not read them? You might learn to read better when you put a little more effort into the task.

You can always slag off those who do though eh? So why bother? But eventually people learn to take no notice of slaggings-off and recognise them for what they are.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 30 Apr, 2008 05:46 pm
I saw a LWB late-reg white van today with prominent lettering on each side and rear doors reading-

Quote:
Tyre and Mobile Fitting Specialists.


There was no full-stop. I put one in because this is a literary genre.

Can you guys think of any circumstances where you would rather see a Tyre and Mobile Fitting Specialist's van coming round the curve than a fossil specialist.

We live in a world of "specialists". There's lingerie specialists and "how do you fancy nearly going over the edge" specialists and sewage disposal specialists and loads of other specialists as well. The Division of Labour principle at this point in time.

There's a "hire a dog for an hour" specialist now. Guaranteed recent enema. Hungry if required, for biscuit teasers. Earprickings gut wrenching.

There are some funny vids on U tube showing Blocked Drain Clearence Specialists.

The word "specialist" has become meaningless. With millions of specialists special starts looking ordinary.

Tyre and Mobile Fitting MAGIC is better. Nobody gives two phews about "specialists" anymore. And Fossil specialists are dead in the water.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 30 Apr, 2008 06:00 pm
So if I bought a suit in Tyre or Mobile, I could have it fitted right smart eh?
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 30 Apr, 2008 06:22 pm
If you have the wherewithall fm. For sure.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 30 Apr, 2008 07:10 pm
Im just demonstrating the point that it doesnt take any talent to sound like you
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 1 May, 2008 06:15 am
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
Schools evolution proposal could die
(By Steve Patterson, The Florida Times-Union, May 1, 2008)

TALLAHASSEE - A proposal to let schoolteachers criticize the scientific basis of evolution may die in the Legislature because dueling plans haven't been reconciled into a single bill.

With the Legislature poised to adjourn this week, supporters doubted on Wednesday that the issue would be resolved.

"Tomorrow [today] is the day - or not. And then it's over," said Sen. Ronda Storms, R-Brandon, who sponsored the Evolution Academic Freedom Act (CS/SB 2692) with Sen. Steve Wise, R-Jacksonville.

That bill said teachers in public schools couldn't be punished for presenting scientific evidence in class about shortcomings in evolutionary theory. It passed the Senate last week.

The bill said it didn't change state curriculum standards, and that any evidence teachers used should be "germane current facts, data, and peer-reviewed research" specifically about evolution.

But a companion bill in the House was toughened to require that teachers provide "critical analysis" of the theory as part of their instruction. The House passed that bill after significant debate Monday, but Storms said she can't understand why it was changed.

"I have no idea," she said, comparing the situation to having two cars traveling together as a caravan. "Suddenly the car behind us veered off the road and into the bushes."

She said the Senate won't pass that bill.

Others questioned whether the House effort was sabotaged.

"I'd say someone in the House, in the name of trying to push this bill, is actually trying to kill it," said John West, senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, a Seattle-based organization that developed a model evolution-debate law that was the basis for Florida's legislation.

"If nothing passes, I think there will be a lot of explaining to do," he said.
West said teachers in a lot of places are either afraid they'll get in trouble if they criticize evolution or, in some cases, say they actually were punished.

He said laws that protect criticism when it's based on scientific research are good for teaching, and that teachers challenging the theory have to give a balanced, objective explanation of evolution.

But critics of the legislation said it's giving cover to a religious debate that began when Florida's education system updated curriculum and explicitly included evolution.

"We saw this coming," said Brandon Haught, a member of Florida Citizens for Science, a loose-knit group supportive of teaching evolution. He said some religious groups have been promoting the legislation.

Haught, a police agency employee taking night classes to become a science teacher, said he wants to be sure his children, now in middle and high school, are taught objective science. He said some supporters of the legislation don't know enough about science or evolution to know there's good evidence behind the theory, and that all theories have some weak spots that scientists continuously challenge.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Thu 1 May, 2008 06:41 am
wandeljw wrote:
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
Schools evolution proposal could die
(By Steve Patterson, The Florida Times-Union, May 1, 2008)

"I'd say someone in the House, in the name of trying to push this bill, is actually trying to kill it," said John West, senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, a Seattle-based organization that developed a model evolution-debate law that was the basis for Florida's legislation.

So the DI, an obviously religiously motivated organization, created the model which was the basis for the Florida's legislation.

(Poor John West is just jealous that someone else is being as sneaky as the DI is)

This whole pack of clowns (The DI and their stooges in the legislature) are like the dumb thieves who rob a convenience store and point up at the security camera so it gets a good photo of their face.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 1 May, 2008 08:14 am
AHHH but theres always next session. Very Happy You guys should be more trusting in the powers of stupidity.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 1 May, 2008 09:11 am
Too easy fm. It just won't wash. You saying it's stupidity doesn't scientifically prove that it is stupidity. It's like you trying to tell Bobby Fischer how to play chess.

The intention of the assertion is to make us all think that you, being a man of distinction and experience with a wide knowledge of the world and its ways, know what is going on for otherwise how could you know it is stupidity except that it wouldn't do for a man of distinction and experience with a wide knowledge of the world and its ways to not know what's going on as it opens up the possibilty that men of distinction and experience with a wide knowledge of the world and its ways are not always to be trusted and peer-reviewing its very self might need reviewing and therefore it has to be stupidity for you to maintain your dignity and to uphold the gindity (or gitdinty) of your colleages and peers who are hellbent on wresting power for that bunch of tosspots who have it now and to whom they have to go cap in hand and weaving pretty patterns in the air to get funds seemingly unaware that funds are pork and pork has precedence over science.

Would you put any more commas in that fm?
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 1 May, 2008 09:16 am
You have my permission to continue talking out your ass there spendi.. CArry on.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Thu 1 May, 2008 09:21 am
farmerman wrote:
You have my permission to continue talking out your ass there spendi.. CArry on.


You didn't need to tell him that, Jesus Holloway Christ . . . carry on, and on, and on, and on . . . is just about all he does here.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 1 May, 2008 09:31 am
He suffers from anal-oral inversion syndrome.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Thu 1 May, 2008 09:48 am
. . . and has a bad case of the drizzlin' sh*ts . . . yeah, i can smell where yer comin' from . . .
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 1 May, 2008 11:17 am
I bet you two wish you could compose a sentence like that.

And I could have made it even funnier if I had had more time but the semi-final of the World Snooker Championship is on between Rocket Ronnie and Stoneface Steve and I have had a wager on the outcome and there's not much beats betting on top-notch, no peer-reviewing in sight, 33 frame snooker matches for draining the soul of every last vestige of the idea that we evolved from monkeys. Only someone who watches it without concentration could think otherwise.

Is there a tighter corner for a man to get into than the World Snooker Championship Final when, apart from his jacket, he's dressed for dinner and can expect not one iota of help from anyone; not even his Mum. He has no excuses.

It's odd how few Americans are good enough to play in this event. Or, funnily enough, in top cricket or football events. There must be an explanation.

Snooker, under the conditions in The Crucible, must be the scientific rolling-ball game par exellence. A mobile sculpture dedicated to perfection.
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