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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 09:19 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
I wonder whats next from their bag of tricks.


They have hold of the wrong bag. It's your strawman that they have hold of the right one.

They were educated on business principles. How could it be otherwise.

Veblen likened business principles to setting an ambush.

Show me why AIDs-ers are not, by logic, pessimists and communists. I did a post about pessimism on which you failed to comment. I wasn't calling AIDs-ers pessimists and communists because I had run out of ideas. It was because they are pessimists and communists. And their totalitarianism sticks out like a bandaged thumb on a parade drill.

Another strawman conflagrates.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 09:53 am
Quote:
Judge Backs UC On Admissions Requirements
(By Angelica Donallo, Daily Californian, April 2, 2008)

A federal judge ruled in favor of University of California officials last week after a Christian high school challenged university policies that determine which high school courses fulfill admission requirements.

The Association of Christian Schools International, Calvary Chapel Christian School and a handful of students filed a suit in 2005, claiming that the university and its officials violated their First Amendment freedoms in not approving several of the religious high school's course offerings.

Judge S. James Otero of the U.S. District Court for the Central District of California determined that the university's overall a-g requirement policies for course approval do not reflect unconstitutional discrimination. However, the court has not decided whether or not the university's decision in this particular instance demonstrates discrimination.

The a-g requirements classify types of high school courses that will be accepted for admissions and are considered among other factors when determining admissions for new students.

"In the light most favorable to Defendants, the course-review process at worst symbolically disapproves of the academic value of Plaintiffs' beliefs," said the ruling from the court. "In light most favorable to Plaintiffs, the course-review process burdens students who must take additional tests to demonstrate proficiency in the A-G Subjects."

Attorneys for the plaintiffs said the court will likely rule on the issue within a year.

The Christian school offers 43 courses that have been approved by UC as a-g courses, but some courses in subjects such as biology and history were not approved.

UC officials said the ruling demonstrates that their approval procedures, as they stand, do not discriminate by religion.

"The decision is important because it affirms the University's ability to set reasonable admissions standards that apply equally to all applicants and all schools," read a statement from the university.

Ken Smitherman, president of the Christian schools association, said the university should approve courses that are taught at the high school, even if there are inherent religious biases.

"We believe there has been exhibited viewpoint discrimination," he said. "We believe that our schools, if they choose ... to have a religious bias in particular courses ... are being discriminated against because of that viewpoint."

However, university officials said the courses were evaluated according to their instructional value. One literature course at the high school, for example, was not approved because its primary text was an anthology rather than a full text.

"The University has declined to approve courses that use as their primary source the books named in the case, not because they have religious content, but because they fail to meet the university's standards for effectively teaching the required subject matter," read the university statement.

University policy states that students planning to apply to the university may seek alternatives when meeting the university's a-g requirements by taking courses at community colleges or through standardized tests.

Although many students who are plaintiffs in the case were granted admission to the university, attorneys for the plaintiffs said problems with course approval at the high school will likely continue.

"If the courses are continually denied then it will have a greater impact on the ability for students to attend UC in the future," said Jennifer Monk, legal counsel for the plaintiffs.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 11:12 am
wande quoted-

Quote:
"If the courses are continually denied then it will have a greater impact on the ability for students to attend UC in the future," said Jennifer Monk, legal counsel for the plaintiffs.


As I warned months ago. Reduced number of students means reduced profits unless the shortfall is made up by dumbing down entrance qualifications and 'could lead to', a phrase often seen in biology research claims, to a rival university.

wande- why don't you search out some indictments of religion from Soviet Communist Party sources? Give your campaign the services of the heavy hitters.

And it's over 50 years ago that Mr Gorer said that California was incubating a new mutation of humanity. It is world famous for an illusion industry. It's picture of war is nothing like that given by Mr Mailer, Mr Heller and JFK. And its sex industry is also world famous and it has spawned thousands of strange cults. It is also, I read, the sixth largest economy on earth.

I hardly think it typical. Although Angelica is a Christian name.

Settin' Aah-aah wrote-

Quote:
Jesus told me.


You might try - "Jesus wants me for a sunbeam." Why piss-ball about with the watered down stuff.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 11:39 am
spendi
Quote:
Show me why AIDs-ers are not, by logic, pessimists and communists. I did a post about pessimism on which you failed to comment. I wasn't calling AIDs-ers pessimists and communists because I had run out of ideas. It was because they are pessimists and communists. And their totalitarianism sticks out like a bandaged thumb on a parade drill.


This entire statement of yours constitutes a "strawman" and youre too dim to even recognize it.
As far as not responding to you, I respond to posters who put up intelligent , arguments, even though we disagree strongly. Yours just dont merit anything but a shake of the head and a "so what"?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2008 01:45 pm
Where's the "So what" then?

Quote:
My comments were reserved in entirety for the opinion rendered by the 9th Fed District.


So what? You're not arguing with the 9th Fed. Every court in the country can come out on your side and it still has no bearing on "Intelligent Design: Science or Religion.

You have allowed yourself that even the USSC can be swayed by political considerations. You are seeing judges as your Gods. Court decisions are over-turned on appeal many times.

And when you quote from such sources you can pick out what you want.
wande's been international in his selections.

Are you claiming Legal Infallibility?

You're fumbling around. Where is your view on "controversial issues" . It was wande who quoted the phrase. I know you ignore that point when I have raised it.

What is your view?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2008 07:04 am
Nowhere else to put this "there'll always be an England" bit. Yorkshire pudding, the predictable spankings, and here, with a wonderful fascist twist. Mosely is president of the FIA which oversees the Formula One racing world.

Quote:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article3673829.ece
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2008 07:24 am
Who was in bondage and who was doing the spanking Bernie?

You don't make that clear and I'm not checking your link as I'm sure you have brooded over it enough to be able to answer any of our queeries regarding it such as the one above.

It is a most critical matter which all critical thinkers everywhere really do need an answer to in order to make any sort of sense out of your troller.

Oh- what was he spanking them with if he was doing the spanking which might well be what we in England call the Xylophone if done properly. Or, to be more exact, for your case the Five-note Xylophone.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2008 07:34 am
In a full blown atheist materialist society, having no residual Christianity, Mr Mosley would order a thousand copies of the video and send them to all his friends with a note saying "Hey- dig this!!!" Assuming it wasn't against regulations I mean.

But obviously, as we have just seen, such a society is a very long way off and will remain so as long as those who seek such a society are convinced Christians even up their petticoats and are only acting not being for some reason or other.
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blatham
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2008 08:13 am
Quote:
In a full blown atheist materialist society, having no residual Christianity,


That's a very silly hypothetical, spendi. There's no imaginable universe where we (western society) might become such a thing. It is about as helpful or revelatory as musing about how we might look if the germanic family of languages had never evolved or what it would look like if we set out to remove all trace of them.

But it's equally silly from another perspective as well. We have very many human socieities, past and present, that we can study which formed absent christian influence.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2008 09:04 am
Good point, blatham. Spendi is constantly returning to his theme that only Christianity can protect civilized society.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2008 09:17 am
I was referring to a future Western society where the full-baked AIDs-er's argument had prevailed and which I presume you would welcome. A subject which, I'm afraid, our AIDs-ers baulk at contemplating despite their best efforts to drive us there.

Quote:
That's a very silly hypothetical, spendi. There's no imaginable universe where we (western society) might become such a thing. It is about as helpful or revelatory as musing about how we might look if the germanic family of languages had never evolved or what it would look like if we set out to remove all trace of them.


How did you manage to switch from "society" to "universe"? Such societies as I envisage have been imagined. Many times. Some of them are half-incubated already. Small pockets exist I'm told.

Your whole paragraph is mere woffle to avoid the key factor which you left out of the voyeuristic peep through the fingers at Mr Mosley's alleged activities. I think they were allegations. No trial yet with a defence.

If the topic is too delicate for your fine Christian sensibilities I quite understand although I don't understand why you go to all this trouble to allude to allegations you can't look at in much detail. Can you man?

And no amount of assertions about me being silly, or very silly and the whole barrel full of other assertions, can hide that.

After all it is a story which has got you pricking your ears up and goodness knows what else. Almost as if it was a media truffle.


Quote:
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2008 09:54 am
TEXAS UPDATE

Quote:
National scientists push for including evolution lessons
(By KAREN AYRES SMITH, The Dallas Morning News, April 2, 2008)

Texas students must receive a strong science education that includes important lessons on evolution if they are to be prepared to compete in the global economy, top national science leaders said Tuesday during a visit to Southern Methodist University.

Three scientists from the National Academies, a coalition of science advisory groups, said years of scientific research have consistently supported evolution, the biological theory that humans and other species evolved from lower forms of life.

Their comments came amid an ongoing review of the state's public school science curriculum that has sparked controversy about the best way to present evolution to students.

"I think parents really want their children exposed to different points of view," said Ralph Cicerone, president of the National Academy of Sciences. "But the fact is there is no scientific controversy."

The scientists came to SMU for a speech about the need for more young people to study science so the U.S. can be more competitive with other countries. Before their remarks, the group spoke with The Dallas Morning News about the need for secondary teachers to present evidence-based science to students - including evolution.

Many conservatives, including the State Board of Education chairman, have long pushed for teachers to present what some groups say are weaknesses in the theory of evolution. For example, some argue that it can't explain the development of complex cells.

Many skeptics of evolution say they aren't calling for schools to teach creationism or intelligent design, a theory that says certain features of the universe are so complex that they are best explained by an intelligent cause. But others argue that raising questions about evolution amounts to slipping God into the classroom.

Harvey Fineberg, president of the Institute of Medicine, one of the National Academies, said that parents and students need to understand that people can support religion and evolution.

"Belief in religion and conviction about God is utterly in keeping with evolution," said Dr. Fineberg, a former provost at Harvard. "They are not incompatible."

The current Texas science curriculum, which was approved in 1998, dictates that students should understand the theory of evolution. But elsewhere in the rules it also stipulates that students should analyze any strengths and weaknesses of all theories.

Disputes over that curriculum have caused controversy for years. In November, the state's science director, Chris Comer, said she was forced to resign over allegations that she had inappropriately endorsed evolution. Texas Education Agency officials pointed to other infractions.

Since then, science teachers and professors from across the state have started to meet in groups to redraft the curriculum standards, which must be approved by the State Board of Education.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2008 09:59 am
I am getting a bit cheesed about scientists giving in to the "compatability between science and religion story". If the fraternity needs to market science as "non threatening to your precious beliefs" even though facts dont lie and religion raises lying to a high art, maybe we leave the science to the Chinese.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2008 10:01 am
Lets get back to business.

Gene Tunney wrote to Dame Laurentia McLachlan, the Prioress of Stanbrook Abbey that George Bernard Shaw was-

Quote:
the saintliest man I have ever known.


Albert Einstein published a tribute to GBS describing-

Quote:
the impersonal power of artistic impression having blessed and educated us all.


And the great man himself wrote-

Quote:
Nowadays a Catholic who is ignorant of Einstein is as incomplete as a thirteenth-century Dominican ignorant of Aristotle.....Religion without science is mere smallmindedness.


Michael Holroyd wrote-

Quote:
Science meant two things to Shaw. In its derogatory manifestation it was the algebraic hocus-pocus that had befuddled him at school and hypnotized so many adults. The codes and rituals of this superstitious system formed a second network of philistine defence after the Bible-smashing advance of Darwinism. There were scientists on both sides of the warfare, and the battle lines teemed with spies and fifth-column agents. Speedily replacing eternity with infinity, astrophysicists were flinging "millions of eons about in the most lordy manner" (Shaw) or mystically descanting on the "incredible smallness of the atom" and other fairy tales. Shaw viewed these priests of science as an elite corps of idealists who had corrupted physics and biology, and ingeniously substituted illusory progress for real progress. Using misplaced religious devotion, they had strengthened the philistine's citadel with inflexible scientific axioms and given it a brilliant technological facade. Shaw classed these renegade scientists with clairvoyants, diviners, hand readers and slate writers--all "marvel mongers whose credulity would have dissolved the Middle Ages in a roar of sceptical merriment".


What your Angelicas and Donnas and your average school board members might make of that is obvious.

"It's very, very silly", they would say, having learned advanced debating techniques from the AIDs-er's wunderkind.

GBS was a leading light in the Fabian Society, he wrote most of it's "Tracts", a founder of the LSE, a life member of the Royal Astronomical Society and latterly a member of the British Interplanetary Society due to his faith in space travel.

And wande is quoting us the words of secretly recruited young ladies who are more or less illiterate but at least know how to pull the AIDs-ers chain.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2008 10:07 am
The Chinese can't do science fm. They have not got the appropriate religious inspiration.

Your pessimism is showing.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2008 10:41 am
farmerman wrote:
I am getting a bit cheesed about scientists giving in to the "compatibility between science and religion story". If the fraternity needs to market science as "non threatening to your precious beliefs" even though facts dont lie and religion raises lying to a high art, maybe we leave the science to the Chinese.


Our country's students are already losing ground on science and math, and some nuts wants to infuse religion into our science. No wonder we're importing scientists and computer programmers from abroad.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2008 01:32 pm
More misplaced pessimism.

Why do you continually denigrate the US simply in order to prop up your argument with repetitive, meaningless and ridiculous assertions.

wande quoted-

Quote:
. "But the fact is there is no scientific controversy."


Yes--we know that. The controversy is not scientific. It's political.

fm wrote-

Quote:
facts dont lie and religion raises lying to a high art


It isn't just religion fm. From the high-heel to the dyed bouffant hair-do ladies fashions are one giant lie. Your tuxedo is a lie. The air waves are filled with lies. Lies are necessary for civilisation to function. The truth of facts would lay us prostrate.

Would you mind explaining why it wouldn't?

Isn't it a barefaced lie of omission to plough on in this debate mouthing the same old naive tosh you have been spouting, unchanged, for 3 years and which has been aired thousands of times to no effect and ignoring the question posed in this debate about "controversial issues" which has recently been raised in an AIDS-er's post and in many of my previous ones.

It's called "bottling it" in England.

The language of science grates on the public ear if it can be called a language with all its "coulds" and "mights" and "may lead to"s.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 3 Apr, 2008 05:57 pm
Hey-- just watch AIDs-ers hanging on every word that Karen, Angelica, Rani, Diane and Donna write, to name the most recent, Bertha's a bit back, and ignoring those of Gene Tunney, Albert Einstein, George Bernard Shaw and Michael Holroyd.

Sold out is a serious understatement.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 4 Apr, 2008 09:04 am
MISSOURI UPDATE

Quote:
Stein stumps for state education law change
(Chad Livengood, Springfield News-Leader, April 4, 2008)

Call Ben Stein the conservative Michael Moore.

Instead of taking on President Bush and the automotive, health care and gun industries, Stein is taking on the vast world of academia in a new documentary. It challenges Charles Darwin's theory of evolution with intelligent design, the belief that the world and man were created by an intelligent designer -- God.

"We've been troubled by the stranglehold Darwinism has had on academic pursuits," Stein said Thursday at a news conference in the state Capitol.

On Wednesday, Stein gave lawmakers a special preview of his new film, "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed," which will debut in 1,000 theaters across the country on April 18.

Stein said college professors who question Darwinism lose their jobs and research grants. He said the practice in academia runs amok with America's founding principles of "free speech and freedom of inquiry."

"They did not give their lives for one certain dogma to have a stranglehold on academic pursuits and everything else be expelled, so to speak," said Stein, the famous monotone teacher in the 1986 film "Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

Stein also came to Missouri to lobby for state Rep. Jane Cunningham's Emily Brooker Higher Education Sunshine Act, a bill named after a former Missouri State University student who sued the school in October 2006 because she felt her Christian viewpoint was discriminated against. Cunningham's attempt to get similar legislation passed last year failed.

Brooker, 24, of Springfield, spoke at Stein's press conference. In Springfield, she had refused during her senior year to sign a document endorsing homosexual adoption as part of a classroom assignment. The social work department sanctioned Brooker for what she says was failure to adopt the ideology of her professors. She settled her case with MSU out of court and the social work department has since been restructured, with many of her former professors being reassigned to other areas of the university.

Stein called Brooker's story "appalling."

"It's very discouraging about the human nature," Stein said.

Brooker said MSU is making "positive changes," but the problem of professors forcing their beliefs upon students is "widespread ... across the entire university."

"I've had students after students come up to me and say, 'you know, I've had to compromise in my class, too,'" said Brooker, who is now a foster care caseworker for the state's Children's Division. "That is robbing us of our education. When are we going to stop pigeonholing ideas into student's heads in order for people to get a degree?"

Cunningham's legislation, House Bill 1315, would require public universities in Missouri to submit an annual report about steps they've taken to protect "intellectual diversity."

"We have a problem that needs to be fixed," said Cunningham, a Republican from suburban St. Louis.

Asked whether he thought state legislatures should punish state universities for incidents such as Brooker's, Stein replied: "...I don't want them taken out to the woodshed and spanked. But I would like to see that it not happen again."

Stein said Darwin's 19th century theory of evolution is a "brilliant theory" about the microevolution of different specifies. But he contends evolution should not be the only theory taught in public schools and researched in public universities.

In the movie, Stein's producers interview proponents of Darwinism -- scientists from the country's biggest universities -- about the theory of creation and pose questions about intelligent design, the assertion that the world and living organisms were created by an "intelligent cause" or God and not by natural selection, the basis of Darwin's theory.

"When it comes to asking the basic questions of where did life come from ... they have no answers," Stein said.

"I had always been extremely dubious about Darwinism, because Darwinism is linked to Social Darwinism," said Stein, who also has been a game show host, law professor and Wall Street pundit since being a speechwriter for President Richard Nixon. "This is explicitly one of the problems of the Holocaust, which killed 6 million of my fellow Jews."
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Fri 4 Apr, 2008 09:11 am
Stein's an idiot, and he must be making the "intelligent design" crowd rather nervous, too. The folks in the "intelligent design" crowd are careful never to identify the "intelligent designer" with god, because they'll get smacked down by the Lemon Test in any court case.

What's worse is identifying this Brooker case with the imaginary controversy between a theory of evolution and "intelligent design." Just what the hell connection does Stein allege exists between the unwillingness of science teachers to teach a religious doctrine and a social work curriculum? He does even worse in attempting to link a theory of evolution to the Nazi holocaust. That's Godwin's Law writ large--on a national scale.
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