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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Mon 18 Feb, 2008 07:20 pm
real life wrote:
Chumly wrote:
To the extent that home-schoolers follow an open-minded, forward-thinking, empiricism-based curricula I take little issue with home schooling.

However, I do take exception to home schooling being used as a vehicle for religious indoctrination, and similar backward-thinking such as the primitive fantasy of ID.


let's hope that you aren't the one who gets to decide who is 'open-minded' and who is not.

you're not much about freedom there north of the border , are you
I am against many freedoms:

- the freedom to murder
- the freedom to steal
- the freedom to torture

- and naturally enough, the freedom to indoctrinate others without the benefit of empiricism, as such this style of indoctrination includes both religious and political beliefs and often encompasses the above three.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 18 Feb, 2008 07:36 pm
Chum wrote-

Quote:
the freedom to murder
- the freedom to steal
- the freedom to torture


A Christian would never even think of such things.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Mon 18 Feb, 2008 07:40 pm
I once attended a Christian wedding.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 18 Feb, 2008 09:04 pm
spendius wrote:
Foxy wrote-

Quote:
Because I beg you to show any place that I have EVER advocated religious based science in the public schools.


How about when you walked into a classroom in a tight skirt with high heels and garter belt holding up your classy stockings, and no headscarf, ear-rings, hint of cleavage and businesslike mien?

You make me laugh thinking that 10 through 12 graders don't know the score.


I haven't worn a garter belt since panty hose were invented.
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Diest TKO
 
  1  
Mon 18 Feb, 2008 10:20 pm
Getting wierder than normal in here...

T
K
Oy vey
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raprap
 
  1  
Mon 18 Feb, 2008 10:50 pm
Quote:
I can't buy Creationism----------------------------------





I think Phil Collins is a terrible drummer.



Hats off to Lewis Black


Rap
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 09:43 am
Chum wrote-

Quote:
I am against many freedoms:

- the freedom to murder
- the freedom to steal
- the freedom to torture


Oh, these shining platitudes; gems of empirical wisdom.

We are all against those Chum. I think.

Are you against the freedom of women to choose when to have sex, and who with, with no pressure of any sort exerted. That's an empirical question. A survey this week here claims that married women view sex as just another household chore and are itching to get on line so they can meet handsome electricians and get the house rewired for nothing.

What do you think? It was in The Sunday Times.

-
Quote:
and naturally enough, the freedom to indoctrinate others without the benefit of empiricism, as such this style of indoctrination includes both religious and political beliefs and often encompasses the above three.


I consider that to be an attempt at indoctrination. A careless young reader might think that your touching display of virtue in your little list renders your assertion that religious people "often", and we must note this usage in the hands of a strict empiricist, incite their charges to murder, steal and torture, a valid one. You having carefully built up your credit and integrity beforehand.

It looks as if you have been indoctrinated to believe that you don't indoctrinate people when you get the chance. And here we are with as crude a morsel of indoctrination as ever blew in on the wind.

Your post is in the style of "Can't we talk about Octavia's new hairstyle?"

Was Foxy indoctrinating her students when she walked in as I described above, forgetting my presumption on the garter-belt which I chose out of gallantry not wishing to mention panty-hose in polite company as the item is not very Christian.

The girls to associate a successful authority figure with those items which she had chosen to adorn her person and thus dress that way themselves when they get older. Foxy having been indoctrinated herself in a similar way. Taking the gamut of femininity as a whole, down the ages, it is only a very small number who wear such apparel so there has to be an empirical explanation for that. A cause.

The number is increasing though which is a good thing I think because if barbarians get their hands on WMD all hell will break loose. Barbarians being non-Christians in this context.

The boys to associate a successful authority figure got up in that fashion with knuckling under and getting their noses to the grindstone rather than hanging out in the pool-hall and discos with the cheap sluts as some young men do thus proving that the former reaction is not necessarily right and natural. And especially not from an evolutionary point of view.

Give that the benefit of your empiricism because talking about empiricism doesn't convince viewers on a science thread that you are an empiricist. We need a bit more evidence.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 09:55 am
FLORIDA UPDATE

Florida's Board of Education is voting on the science standards this morning. Public Comments have just ended. Brandon Haught of the Florida Citizens for Science is blogging live from the meeting.

Florida Science Blog
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 10:26 am
wandeljw wrote:

It's an interesting BLOG. The unwashed masses are reciting the standard creationist propaganda. They are competely unaware of how bogus it all is.

I'm surprised that science standards in class are something that should be determined by public opinion. What is the purpose of this meeting exactly? Are they just going to give people some lip-time, and then tell them that science standards are determined by science and not public opinion?
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 11:22 am
FLORIDA - Breaking News

Quote:
Science standards will call evolution ''scientific theory''
(Associated Press, February 19, 2008)

Florida's State Board of Education has voted to use the term "scientific theory of evolution" in new science standards, the first time the word "evolution" has been included.

Florida's current standards require the teaching of evolution using code words like "change over time."

Adding the term "scientific theory" before the term "evolution" was a compromised proposal, and not part of the standards proposed originally to the committee. The optional change was made late last week.

The board narrowly passed the proposed change, voting 4-3.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 12:06 pm
ros wrote-

Quote:
The unwashed masses are reciting the standard creationist propaganda. They are competely unaware of how bogus it all is.


Translation-- ros's personal hygiene and external appearence is beyond reproach and he is an elite, highly educated person with a particularly refined gift of reciting the uttermost platitudinous simplicities and is stoically well-abled to resist any temptation to plumb those depths of depravity which encompass, but do not by any means exhaust, any attempt to entertain the viewers of this thread and, by extension, anyone else who is unfortunate enough to come within range of his dronings which can readily be presumed to have continued for as long as he can remember and possibly even in his sleep.

Am I right in thinking that the vote means that evolution theory won't be taught in Florida science classes because science classes only teach fact, one of which is the vote, and if they start teaching theories it will open up such a can of worms and lead to all sorts of discrimination issues and may possibly cause Florida's medical system to reduce life expectancies to those levels found in more scientifically advanced areas?
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username
 
  1  
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 12:29 pm
Someone ran a brilliant stealth campaign. It's going to be really interesting when Florida science teachers point out to their classes that in science a "theory" or a "scientific theory" means an explanation repeatedly tested by observation and verified by experiment which is accepted essentially univerally by scientists, which has never been falsified, and which explains the data better than any competing hypotheses (such as creationism), and the Florida school board approved the term"scientific theory". It does NOT mean an unsubstantiated idea, as the creationists use it. They've been suckered by their own ignorance, and deservedly so.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 12:29 pm
Quote:
More on the vote on evolution and Florida's new science standards
(Leslie Postal, Orlando Sentinel, Feb 19, 2008)

A divided State Board of Education approved new science standards for Florida's public schools that, for the first time, require teaching evolution. But the board, by a 4-3 vote, adopted a last-minute alternative that inserted the phrase "scientific theory of" in front of evolution and other concepts.

That alternative version was frowned on by many of the scientists and science educators who helped write the new standards. And some of the critics of the standards (who did not like the treatment of evolution at all) said the alternative did not go far enough in allowing teachers the "academic freedom" to discuss other views on how life on earth developed.

The most vocal board members before the vote were Roberto Martinez, a Coral Gables attorney, and Donna Callaway, a retired Tallahassee principal. Both voted "No" -- but for very different reasons.

Martinez wanted the standards adopted as written by the experts asked to devise them. He noted the National Academy of Sciences gave its approval to the original version. He said the last-minute option was diluted one created to "placate those people who had concerns about the evolution standards."

Board member Akshay Desai, a Tampa Bay physician, also wanted the original version adopted, saying it would help Florida students compete for "high-skill, high-wage jobs," and the state compete for high-tech firms.

Callaway said she wanted standards that gave students the "avenue of exploring every option that is out there." She said the standards did not teach students that there is controversy about the topic but would say, "we're going to hide this debate, we're going to hide this controversy."

And that, she argued, is denying students the right to learn and explore.
Though she had previously told the Florida Baptist Witness she would vote "No," she said today that she did not think her religious views colored her decision.

Callaway said she was not advocating creationism or intelligent design be taught but that students "know what we know," that is there may be other theories.

Martinez then asked, "What is the alternative theory?"

Callaway said, "You're saying there is only one theory."

Martinez: "I say that evolution is a fact and it is a fundamental fact."

Callaway: "There is a great difference of opinion in the world...There may be other theories ... This is a point of debate."

Martinez: "Its not a point of debate or controversy in the mainstream scientific community."

Both voted no in the end. Board members Phoebe Raulerson, Kathleen Shanahan and Linda Taylor along with Chairman Willard Fair voted "Yes."

Fair did not share his views. Raulerson said adding the phrase "scientific theory" in front of evolution made the standards more consistent, as a similar phrase was already in some places, such as in the descriptions of cell theory.

Education Commissioner Eric Smith recommended the adoption of the alternative version, too, saying it helped "clarify for our classroom teachers how to address these concepts."

He said both versions of the new standards would lead to a "powerful change" in how Florida teaches science.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 12:31 pm
wandeljw wrote:
FLORIDA - Breaking News

Quote:
Science standards will call evolution ''scientific theory''
(Associated Press, February 19, 2008)

Florida's State Board of Education has voted to use the term "scientific theory of evolution" in new science standards, the first time the word "evolution" has been included.

All that hullabaloo just to call it what it is.

I wonder if changing a few words in the science standards will actually help the kids in Florida to get a decent science education.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 12:32 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
wandeljw wrote:
FLORIDA - Breaking News

Quote:
Science standards will call evolution ''scientific theory''
(Associated Press, February 19, 2008)

Florida's State Board of Education has voted to use the term "scientific theory of evolution" in new science standards, the first time the word "evolution" has been included.

All that hullabaloo just to call it what it is.

I wonder if changing a few words in the science standards will actually help the kids in Florida to get a decent science education.


Precisely! You ask the most important question.
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TheCorrectResponse
 
  1  
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 12:44 pm
So they caved (unless they are going to change the others to: the theory of gravity, the theory of the circulatory system, the theory of the cell, the theory of algebra) and could still barely muster a majority.

What's next: OK how many think 2 + 2 = 4?
43%?
OK, looks like your wrong little Johnny.

Maybe the former VP Danny Q. can be chancellor of Science for the State of Florida: little Johnny says potato but Florida votes potatoe.

Well I'm sure there are plenty of scientists and engineers from China, India, et al. that will find the Florida climate congenial.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 12:53 pm
TCR, Makes one wonder how far they're going with this silliness. How can IDers even make any inroads into the education system when they can't provide any proof or evidence? Wonder of wonders.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 12:57 pm
TheCorrectResponse wrote:
So they caved (unless they are going to change the others to: the theory of gravity, the theory of the circulatory system, the theory of the cell, the theory of algebra) and could still barely muster a majority.


TCR,

Just to clarify for everyone: 4 out of 7 board members voted yes to the compromise wording "scientific theory of evolution". Of the 3 board members that voted no, it is interesting that 2 voted no because they wanted "evolution" in the standards without the compromise wording. The third member who voted no, Donna Callaway, wanted alternatives to evolution added. During the meeting she kept stating that religion has nothing to do with her opinion. Bloggers were having fun commenting on Callaway's hypocrisy.

At least they inserted "scientific theory" rather than "theory" alone. Many anti-evolution people love to shout the slogan: "Evolution is Just a Theory".
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 12:59 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
TCR, Makes one wonder how far they're going with this silliness. How can IDers even make any inroads into the education system when they can't provide any proof or evidence? Wonder of wonders.

They are making inroads by propagandizing the parents and making an end run around the "standards". Peer pressure will be harder to overcome than updating the science standards.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 01:32 pm
Our work is done in Florida. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
 

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